sakaridis

(as an aside, I also think that Dark Phoenix is wildly overrated...while a stellar run THEMATICALLY, and well plotted [Claremont's strength to that point] there are moments of sheer groan inducing dialogue worthy of the absolute worst Telenovellas.

I totally agree with this. Actually, my views on the Dark Phoenix (and Claremont's run in general) have hurt my popularity many times.

 

Don't get me wrong, I like it in a "superheroes meet teen drama meet daily soap opera" way, and I think there are some pretty interesting characters in there, but from a purely technical standpoint, the writing leaves a lot to be desired...

 

And as far as Miller's writing, I don't think we really disagree there. I just wanted to point out (emphasize, if you will) his achievements (and influence) in the storytelling/visual narrative department. (thumbs u

 

Re-reading the Claremont X-men essentials are brutal and I mean brutal. I am now glad that I am not the only one who thinks that, I loved the Uncanny X-men stuff when I young but trying to re-read it now is a chore.Byrne,Cockrum and Smith had a lot to do with his success.

 

What.. you got sick of reading about the "nigh-invulnerable, organic metal" of Colossus... or the phrase "And I you... with all my heart?"

 

 

Prose rarely gets more purple than "vintage Claremont". (thumbs u

I'd also add Walt Simonson to the bunch. He may not have been that successful commercially (at least not initially), but his work did influence many artists from the generation that followed.

And he did marry the model for House of Secrets 92, so that notches him way up above other creators.

Excellent point! (thumbs u Weezie was obviously a hottie in her younger days.

For the record, I think what Byrne, Perez, and Miller were doing in the late 70's/early 80's was absolutely mind blowing, and set the stage for the A. Adams, the Sienkewicz', and even the McFarlanes to come along later. If you're a fan of art for art's sake, it was truly an amazing time period in the artform.

 

Agreed! (thumbs u

I'd also add Walt Simonson to the bunch. He may not have been that successful commercially (at least not initially), but his work did influence many artists from the generation that followed.

(as an aside, I also think that Dark Phoenix is wildly overrated...while a stellar run THEMATICALLY, and well plotted [Claremont's strength to that point] there are moments of sheer groan inducing dialogue worthy of the absolute worst Telenovellas.

I totally agree with this. Actually, my views on the Dark Phoenix (and Claremont's run in general) have hurt my popularity many times.

Don't get me wrong, I like it in a "superheroes meet teen drama meet daily soap opera" way, and I think there are some pretty interesting characters in there, but from a purely technical standpoint, the writing leaves a lot to be desired...

And as far as Miller's writing, I don't think we really disagree there. I just wanted to point out (emphasize, if you will) his achievements (and influence) in the storytelling/visual narrative department. (thumbs u

But on the initial point, I'm 100% with you! (thumbs u Alan Moore was in no way influenced by Frank Miller's writing in absolutely no point in his career. Hell, I could probably argue that the reverse (Miller taking a hint from Moore) might have been true in the years after Swamp Thing and Marvelman.

(thumbs u

 

Oddly enough, both started coming into their own as major comic influences around 1981-1983.

 

Miller's defining moment of being seen as a major writing force is Daredevil 168 (January, 1981). He'd already received his warmup co-writing on the title, but now it was his show after convincing Shooter he could turn the character around from a dog to a major force.

 

Alan Moore had been writing and drawing sideline characters before getting involved in Doctor Who, Judge Dredd, and Captain Britain stories in the early 80's. Then, stories with Marvelman and V For Vendetta through Warrior Magazine.

 

So not sure if they influenced each other, but they really started taking off in that 1981-1983 period in their own markets, and would later grow into much more recognized creative powerhouses from there on out. Not sure if they were aware of each other at that point, but I doubt they influenced each other.

 

By the way, here is a very interesting interview with Alan Moore about his influences over the years. He mentions Flash, Action Comics, Detective Comics as major influences, though his concern was it was fantasy land where they lived. I wonder if this is why he wanted to create more realistic stories to bring characters into the world we all live in versus happy-peppy environments all the time.

 

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=511

Thanks for the link, dude! (thumbs u

Oh and Born Again is definitely the best Daredevil story ever! Mazzucchelli

Um.

 

How can Frank Miller have opened the doors for Alan Moore, when Alan Moore was writing comics long before Frank Miller? Sure, Moore's first US comic came out in late 1983, while Miller's first written book came out in late 1980, but Miller worked for Marvel, Moore for DC, and Miller's writing wasn't recognized as anything amazing (aside from killing off Elektra) until at the earliest, Ronin (1983) and at latest, Dark Knight Returns (1986...to which I am leaning.)

 

As well, DD remained bi-monthly for several months after Miller took over. What was particularly "new style" about DD #168-191? It's typical superhero fare, with the introduction of Ninja as major story element.

 

And Moore coming to DC was almost exclusively the result of efforts by editors Karen Berger and Len Wein.

 

I really don't think Miller influenced Moore or his career in any possible way.

While I totally agree that Alan Moore was in no way influenced by Frank Miller in any case (and yes, this is an absolute statement!), I think you're underestimating Miller's work in his initial Daredevil run. The writing, in terms of plot and subject matter was definitely more than standard superhero fare (though I'll grant you, the dialogues still weren't nothing to write home about) and the overall storytelling (pacing, layouts, composition) were miles ahead of anything being done in mainstream comics at that time.

I won't argue that Miller was a great innovator (he was basically "borrowing" elements from the works of Steranko and -mostly- Eisner, while applying a Kurtzmanic sense of timing in the way the story flowed through the panels), but he did stuff that were definitely "different" compared to the average Marvel and DC comic book.

And even though the sales of Daredevil took a while to increase, once they did, the title became a mega hit, surpassing even the X-men for a little while IIRC.

But on the initial point, I'm 100% with you! (thumbs u Alan Moore was in no way influenced by Frank Miller's writing in absolutely no point in his career. Hell, I could probably argue that the reverse (Miller taking a hint from Moore) might have been true in the years after Swamp Thing and Marvelman.

• Super kudos to dwip99 for the biggest order I've ever had through the boards! Almost 150 books (including bronze and Copper ASMs, silver Avengers and various copper and modern books of all shapes and sizes) made a safe trip from Oregon to Greece in only 9 days. Special thanks for a super-cool freebie (ASM #327 CGC 9.6 W)
   
  
• Extra-flavored kudos to mschmidt for another priority box filled with copper and modern awesomeness! (And an amazing array of freebies! )

In these troubling days for the boards (as evidenced in the ever-growing probation thread), it's a real blessing to have great people to deal with. Thanks a lot, guys! (thumbs u

My one and only deal with comicseekers in the past went relatively OK, but this looks really bad!

I started reading this thinking that it was just a case of people expecting a bit too much from a mystery box and feeling disappointed because they didn't actually hit the lottery, but it quickly became apparent that this wasn't the case.

I hate to sound harsh, but in my book this is nothing more than a scam. I don't know if this will be resolved in any way, or if comicseekers will find himself in the probation list, or whatever, but as far as I'm concerned, he's finished as a seller and there's no chance in hell I'm ever going to give him any business in the future.

Rant over!

That's exactly what I was saying. And that's the story the way I heard it straight from Marv Wolfman's mouth a few months ago.

I suppose one could argue that he might be lying, but I'd find that hard to believe. He struck me as a really great guy. (thumbs u

Crisis on Infinite Earths was DC's response to Marvel's Superheroes Secret Wars.

That's why I'd be surprised if history says the Copper Age kicked off with a response mini-series, even though it had a larger impact to the DC Universe as a whole.

The way I've heard it, Crisis was in development for at least a couple of years before Secret Wars came out.

• Kudos to the1stfro for some ultra-cheap moderns and a sweet TOD #59.
   
  
• Kudos to The Resurrection for some lovely Bronze and copper books and for a(nother) smooth transaction in general. You're a pal, Pat!
   
  
• Kudos to mazman77 for a motherload of bronze and copper ASM's. Excellent grading and amazing prices.

Super kudos to Mr. Diggler for a variety of accurately graded and well-packaged books. (thumbs u

After this thread, I'm running out to buy the TPB of Swamp Thing!

You're in for a real treat! (thumbs u

Man, what I'd give to be able to read those for the first time again...

...and it's Jon Sable, Freelance, not Silver Sable. For the record.

I don't think RockMyAmadeus was talking about Mike Grell's excellent Jon Sable Freelance in his previous post. I'm sure the Silver Sable reference was about something else.

 

At least, I hope so.

 

Since his parenthetical immediately followed a reference to 90's drek, it definitely was a reference to the hideous 90's Marvel, Silver Sable, and not the decent 80's Grell book.

That's the way I understood it too.

...and it's Jon Sable, Freelance, not Silver Sable. For the record.

I don't think RockMyAmadeus was talking about Mike Grell's excellent Jon Sable Freelance in his previous post. I'm sure the Silver Sable reference was about something else.

At least, I hope so.

A well written post, but I am not arguing any of that. I am simply saying, in determining an age ending or a new one beginning, I think the massive change that comics went through after 50 years is more important. Another important example is Disney comics also ceased during 1984 with Donald Duck being it's last hold out. It's not that each genre was so important to comic collectors, it's that they were to the public, and that is when that changed, and that is why to me, Bronze ends in 1984. the sole reason.

 

I don't say that copper starts in 1984 because of the B&W explosion, but I do say it's one of the many changes that happened to start Copper. there have been underground & alternative comics for 2 decades by that point, they gained in popularity because of the direct shop. I would say that Alan Moore Starting Swamp thing is a more important start of Copper then the B&W explosion because that changed comics to the core in a larger degree then the B&W explosion.

 

Wait...wait a second...we weren't talking about Alan Moore's Swamp Thing, we were talking about the fading away of long running non-superhero genre books.

 

If you're going to bring Swamp Thing into the mix, then that's a whole different argument.

 

Alan Moore's Swamp Thing is in a class by itself. No single creator had more influence on the comics industry in the 1980's than Alan Moore, and yes, I'm including Frank Miller.

 

The value and influence of Alan Moore's Swamp Thing CANNOT be overstated. It is the quintessential Copper Age book, the title from which not only multiple different titles sprang, but which also created an entire publishing imprint within the oldest comics publisher on the planet.

 

Without Alan Moore's Swamp Thing, I don't know if there would have been a Dark Knight Returns, a Watchmen, a Sandman, an Animal Man, Preacher....there DEFINITELY would not have been a Hellblazer.

 

Or, if there was, perhaps it would not have been published by DC, and they may have had to wait much longer.

 

While the B&W explosion was certainly important to the industry, Alan Moore's Swamp Thing was a paradigm shift in the way comics were created, a watershed in comics history. Alan Moore's Swamp Thing was more important than any and every B&W published, with the possible exception of Turtles, and then it's a tight call.

 

If one were to date the Copper Age with a definitive start, I can think of NO more qualified SINGLE book than Swamp Thing #21.

 

People didn't realize it then...but that single book changed the industry forever. It is as important to its era as FF #1 is to its.

 

(and please no one make the mistake of thinking I said ST #21 was as important as FF #1. Read that sentence carefully.)

I wholeheartedly agree with everything said in the above post! (thumbs u

After all these years, I still believe that Swamp Thing is definitely Moore's most important and most influential work. Without it, the publishing output of the following 10-15 years would've been markedly different and probably not nearly as interesting. Watchmen and Dark Knight Returns are definitely hugely important books with a tremendous influence, but to me they seem pale in comparison with the holy trinity of Swamp Thing, Miller's Daredevil, and Chaykin's American Flagg.

And Swamp Thing is the "biggest" of the three!

I plan on listing a few hundred CA/MA and maybe a few BA books in the next few days. I might start tonight most likely tomorrow. I need to thin the collection down. The majority will be DC with side orders of Marvel and INDY books. Many will be runs or lots. Off the top of my head: The Question, Flash, The Spectre, DD......... ....I've really got to pull them out. Tons of books that WILL be priced ridiculously low. Check it out.

 

From Athens to Athens. Comic book addicts unite.

Damn straight!

I plan on listing a few hundred CA/MA and maybe a few BA books in the next few days. I might start tonight most likely tomorrow. I need to thin the collection down. The majority will be DC with side orders of Marvel and INDY books. Many will be runs or lots. Off the top of my head: The Question, Flash, The Spectre, DD......... ....I've really got to pull them out. Tons of books that WILL be priced ridiculously low. Check it out.

Yep - even from Australia. I think 20 days is the longest anything I've shipped has taken, and that was to Greece. The US is more like 10-12.

It was only 15 days actually. (thumbs u

Which definitely proves that international shipping times are not what they used to be.

Stupid question, but are sellers holding back on books right now to wait for the VCC?

Doesn't look like it to me.

I don't know what #2 was, as I don't have it, but I assume it was comic size.

That is correct. (thumbs u

Legend of Zelda 1 1990 Valiant 9.4 WHITE

Definitely a tough one to find in high grade. (thumbs u

Kudos to:

• Dawgwindu for some super nice Bronze DC horror books (and a Shanna #1).
   
  
• Flying Donut for some cheapie Silver and Bronze DC's.
   
  
• Faster Friends for some tightly graded Miller Daredevils (and two nice freebies!) (thumbs u
  

I think there should be a category between Major Keys and Keys, for stuff like X-Men 266 and New Mutants 87.

I agree with JC. Some books from the "Keys" list should be broken out. All in all, an excellent list, though. (thumbs u