Tony S

Consider this a public service announcement: Registered Mail is NOT near as great as presented or generally believed. Registered Mail CAN and DOES get lost. USPS - because the items insured are collectibles - CAN and WILL do everything possible to avoid paying a claim for a lost package. I submitted 12 books to CGC for a client back in December 2019. The books were graded and shipped back to him via Registered Mail insured for $500 in January 2020. There was a problem delivering - conflicting accounts as to why.. Most likely his address not on his mailbox. But might of been just because he wasn't at home at the time of the attempted delivery. So USPS held the package a couple of weeks and then marked it for return. That is the end of tracking information. The package was never returned to CGC. Never delivered to the owner. Nothing in USPS tracking since marked for return. Initially a request was made by CGC to USPS to look for the package. After a few weeks of no reply from USPS, a claim was filed by CGC USPS was unable find the package and USPS denied paying the claim. Said they wanted actual receipts showing what the owner paid for the books. USPS's own website says that for proof of value you can submit statements from reputable dealers. Being one myself, I submitted such with the first claim. As already said, the claim was denied and closed out. CGC appealed. This time I submitted another statement of value and I got the owner of a local comic book store to submit a statement of value. So two dealer statements. AND I looked up and printed out recent completed sales on eBay of the each and every exact book (CGC and grade) All of this submitted as proof of value. I also submitted proof - actual receipts - of the pressing costs and the CGC grading costs. Denied again. The owner appealed. USPS still wants receipts showing what he paid for the books. These are collectibles. What was paid for the books does not represent their value. What these books routinely sell for is their value. And with CGC grading and encapsulation, the books become much more ....monetized. It is easy to see what a CGC book routinely sells for. I own books I paid 12 cents for in 1968 that are worth thousands of dollars now. Not only is 12 cents not a reasonable settlement if USPS looses the insured package said books are shipped in, NEITHER do I have the RECEIPTS for those 12 cent purchases 50 years ago. As of this moment, USPS can't find the package and wants receipts for what the owner paid for the books to consider an insurance payout. Over six months since the books went missing. So yeah.... You can forget that Registered Mail is the "gold standard" in shipping. We pay a premium for Registered mail because it's supposed to be handled with greater care and insurance is available up to $50,000. But if packages do get lost and insurance claims are denied- or only settled for a maximum of the original purchase price by the owner - what are we paying premium prices for? Perhaps the gold standard is private shipping insurance and UPS.

What The Lion's Den and October said. A long color breaking crease is going to make you VF range, automatic, by itself. Keep in mind that white is the complete absence of color. So in the white areas (margins) of the cover it is going to be far more difficult - maybe even impossible slabbed - to see the crease in the white areas. Somewhere along the process, the back cover got folded at the bottom corner. Or the book was very overgraded to begin with. Which can also happen. There is also a line (crease, tear?) at the top of the back cover near the spine. No reason to send this book back in. Improvement in grade unlikely

I believe the stance reflected in the article is still relevant. By itself, CGC does not consider taking a book apart and then putting back together again to be restoration. That is to say, removing the staples and putting the same staples back in. Nothing has been added or removed from the book. It is still the exact same paper and staples. The problem is what the article says. It is difficult to remove the staples and then put them back in without making the holes a slight bit larger, if done by someone with a lot of practice, it can be pretty much impossible to detect. If done by a less experienced person, it can impact the grade. WHY the staples were temporarily removed and then put back in is the real question. What else was done to the book?

It is - as they say in the hobby - a book "that presents well for the grade". There is no grade appeal process. If CGC ever starts a "grade appeal process" expect it to cost about as much $$ as sending the book back in for regrading.

CGC addresses their stance on this in the post below about defects caused by improper pressing. First sentence. Disassembly by itself is not considered restoration. https://www.cgccomics.com/news/article/3982/pressing-defects-disassembly/

If the rust is si "subtle" that a picture won't show it then you are probably being a bit to strict. There is either rust. Or there is not. if you are not sure, it is probably not rust. Staples can tarnish a bit over time. That's not rust. Just not bright and shiny anymore. . It's unlikely a book with any rust on the staples grades 9.8. But the encapsulation of the comic does not seal off the comic from the environment. If the encapsulated comic is stored in an environment with high relative humidity, the staples could rust. In fact, there have been documented instances of this where people have used fireproof safes and gun cabinets to store CGC graded comics - and the staples have rusted as a result. Because the humidity inside such safes and cabinets can build up over time and get very high.

We would need a bit more detail - like what book, what grading tier, what method of return shipping - to be of any help. As a practical matter, ONE book is always going to look overly expensive, because of shipping. The golden rule of shipping is that the first pound - or in this case book - is the most expensive. Two books are only a couple of dollars more than one for shipping. Five books only a few bucks more than two. If your book was valued over $400 and less than $1000 - and you chose registered mail (likely the best choice) for return shipping you could easily be around $85 total cost for one book. That said, these forums are not actually the ideal place to figure out things like how much you are being charged. They have customer service and accounting staff working for CGC to help with that. Customer service and accounting are working from home, not in the building. So you need to email. Accounting accounting@cgccomics.com Customer service submissions@cgccomics.com Welcome to the boards.

This "issue" gets posted every couple of months here on the forums. I'll try to be brief. If you value the grade your book is in more than the signature, don't remove it from the CGC holder to get it signed. In the process of getting book removed from the holder, getting signed and getting regraded there are multiple steps, multiple people handling the book and thus multiple opportunities for the book to get a bend or bump or worse. I personally NEVER remove 9.8's from holders for signatures. NEVER< NEVER. Because for all practical purposes, 9.8 is the top grade. The chances of a 9.8 going to 9.9 are pretty much zero. So the best you can hope for is the same grade. Dropping one or more grades is a real possibility. Go find a 9.4 or a 9.6 and get it pressed after signed. Then you might get good news instead of bad. You just have to decide.... Which is more important to you? The current grade or that book with a signature - perhaps with a lesser grade? Because the risk of a grade drop - as the OP has discovered - is real.

I do not find it to be true that CGC graded books consistently more strict in their early days (old label) Except for page quality. Based on experience, I believe the first few years open CGC was more strict on page quality. The appeal of old label books is that it's very unlikely they were cleaned and pressed, since that wasn't really an established thing yet. Cleaning and pressing were generally part of an overall restoration of comics. Done by the few restoration experts around. I also do not find graders notes all that helpful. Ultimately what is helpful is an in-hand examination by someone that can look for both the the defects pressing can improve and defects that can't be improved. And they have some experience and skill with likely CGC grade if resubmitted. I only bother with grading notes when a CGC graded books looks much nicer than the assigned grade. Then they might be useful in identifying any defects that are difficult to impossible to see because of the encapsulation. You cannot do a proper evaluation of CPR (crack, press, resubmit) from a few pictures. That said, Looking at the pictures, the book looks to be worth pressing and resubmitting. I do not believe you'll see a huge bump. The defect that can't be fixed with pressing and will hold the book back grade wise is the small tear on the middle of the right outer edge of the front cover. Probably done by someone using a thumb or finger to open the the cover. Two little tiny tears and a stress line between the tears. So you need to get this book in for evaluation of CPR. There are a number of qualified pressing services. Perhaps simplest for someone new to the game is just send it in to CCS - the in house pressing service of CGC. Pay for the book to be screened and CCS will decide if the book is good candidate (no guarantees, just an expert opinion) for removing from the holder, pressing and regrading. Once CCS has done their part then they send the book over to CGC for grading and encapsulation. The real deal here is cost vs benefit. This is not a guaranteed thing. So you are rolling the dice. By the time you pay for shipping to CCS, screening, pressing grading and return shipping back to you the bill will probably be over $100. IF the book goes up to 8.5 you've made a few bucks but that's it. . If it stays the same you are out the money. Which is why you want to pay for the screening if you use CCS

Maybe it varies based on who you talk to at CGC. Maybe CGC has changed policies. But I have made changes to tiers or services with books CGC has received. I'm certain once books are in the grading room it is too late. And I know I've made changes when the status was received. I can't say about the "scheduled for grading" status. It only takes a minute to send the email and find out. It's worth the attempt. Because I guarantee you that book has an indent down the middle of the back cover. An indent you don't see until it comes out of the polybag.

With this particular book, one has to take into account that the indent (one could call it light creasing) is the entire length of the book. Ten inches long. So yes, it could indeed cause a large drop in grade. if pressing removes the light bends and light creasing to cover, I have seen lots of 9.6's with "light spine stress lines". Probably some 9.8's have such - but CGC almost never lists grading notes for 9.8. Which personally I believe is proper and support. Listing tiny defects on 9.8's in grading notes serves no purpose except to cause buyers to question if it is actually, really and truly a 9.8. But I digress.... Get your 8.0 pressed and regraded. You will be glad you did.

That's hilarious. I took my oldest daughter - she was maybe 11 or 12 then - to a New Kids On The Block concert here in Evansville, IN. Man, but ten thousand or more preteen girls inside an indoor stadium can make a lot of noise. I was near deaf by the time it was done and my ears rang for days afterwards. The band and show wasn't bad. I actually like pop music and they put on a good enough show. My daughter loved it. So consider it a nice gift

And my mother and aunt. Geez, but those two were pro's. They would meet for coffee somewhere at 5am, go through the paper for yard sale listings and my aunt would plot out the most efficient route on a map. Then starting at 6 am it was off to the races. They could haggle prices like Uncle Scrooge at an a Arabic flea market and be back in the car and off to the next yard sale in 10 minutes flat! GOD BLESS indeed. Two wonderful women I miss everyday. But God willing, I will see them again

Link to your eBay store or listings? Sounds like you have some stuff I'd be interested in.

Man, that picture is difficult to look at. He really has the vice grip on that book!

You didn't ask but I'll mention it just in case. Ultimate Fallout 4 in the polybag had the polybag seamed right down the middle of the back cover. Vertically. It leaves an indent in the back cover of the entire length of the book. Every time. Sometimes there is even a faint indent in the front cover from the book sitting in a stack of Ultimate Fallout 4's while being shipped first to Diamond and then to comic book stores. Collectors tend to think of books polybagged at the printer as especially well protected. But with this book it is just the opposite. Because of where the seam is at, all books get an indent. So you would be wise to call CGC. Not about removing the bag. But about getting the book sent over to CCS for pressing. And you don't have much time if you want to do this. . CGC is grading moderns pretty fast right now and once the book is in the grading room - and maybe just scheduled for grading - you will not be able to make any changes like sending to CCS. Welcome to the boards.

We all understand where Devin Spencer is coming from. For Devin, this is a brand new, unexpected and unpleasant result. But for most of us, this is the same song that's been sung by hundreds of others thousands of times. Here is the short and simple: If you crack a graded book open for any reason - including getting a signature - you are not guaranteed to get the same grade if it is subsequently regraded. And signatures in particular have a number of people handling the now raw book in a bag BEFORE it ever lands on a CGC graders desk. Maybe the creator was rough with the book when they signed it. Maybe the post office was rough with the book in transit. Maybe the book got bent while being unslabbed (CGC states in terms and conditions it can happen) Maybe, maybe and maybe. The point is you had a certified book at a certified grade and then YOU decided to have it removed from it's tamper resistant and tamper evident holder secure holder. Thereby voiding the certification. If you value the grade more than the signature you are acquiring - don't break the book out for signatures. That's it. Because you take a chance on a grade drop. I don't know about "requiring" anything, but getting books pressed after signed is generally a good idea. Unless you aren't really concerned about the grade and just want it signed and the signature noted as authentic. I/we understand your pain. But you need to understand that this is the risk you take in unslabbing already CGC graded books for signatures.

If the residue can be removed it will be done with solvents. Anytime you use solvents you risk two things: Lifting ink off the page and getting a restored or conserved label. Financially, IDK if this book is worth the effort and risks. But if the book is especially important to you, then as others have suggested you could have CCS take a look at it. Maybe email them these pictures first and see if they have an opinion.

While a mistake by CGC on the label may well be the most likely answer, there might be another. The trimming was only on an interior pages. It might be "Siamese" pages. Pages that did not get cut correctly at the printer and so pages are still joined together. As a kid you would purchase a comic and every once in a while find a couple of pages still joined along the edge. The only way to read the book was to tear or cut the pages apart. This type of "trimming" isn't the same thing as using a razor and trying to improve the appearance of the comic by getting rid of chips and wear along the edge. The pages were stuck together and you wanted to read the comic. There are also a few underground books where the people that produced the books took them home and trimmed them for one reason or another. Those books get blue labels with a notation that it was trimmed. So maybe not a mistake, but the way CGC views Siamese pages that have been cut apart?

And I agree with Buzz Ya know, I've followed this thread for a time and really shouldn't bother responding. It's been debated too many times. Those that believe sellers should cover grading fees are never changing their minds. Those that think it's unreasonable for buyers to expect such are never changing their minds. To me it's pretty simple and straight forward. If you only want a blue label, CGC graded book than buy just that and not something else. 90% bought raw hoping to send it to to CGC and get/end up with a CGC blue label - for less money. That's called gambling. You are not guaranteed to win when gambling. If people want to buy raw and end up with blue label CGC books - then the BUYER should get better at spotting restoration. Then the BUYER could catch restored books BEFORE spending money sending them in. There are sellers on eBay selling books they know have restoration - and are not disclosing it. Some are notorious and get mentioned here. Most sellers just are not much better at detecting restoration than most buyers. Professional color touch and trimming are really hard to spot. Except for experts. That's why CGC employs experts in restoration. If you buy raw, expecting a refund of what you paid plus shipping is reasonable if you are unhappy with the book (say it is restored). What YOU did with the book after you bought it is on you. As I said earlier, you could take responsibility and learn to detect restoration. Then when you get a restored book you could do your return before YOU decide to send it in for grading. Think about this. You drive 20 miles round trip to buy a closeout laptop - their last one - at Walmart. You also ordered a custom gaming laptop skin from a computer store. You get home, enjoy for a few days and the laptop dies. You take it back to Walmart. Do you expect Walmart to refund your gas money? Do you expect Walmart to pay for the laptop skin you bought but will now never be able to use? Well - you can expect if you want. But you might as well buy you a snickers bar on your way out - because that and a refund for the price you paid for the laptop is all you are getting from Walmart. Sellers only owe you the amount you paid them. Is that really controversial?

Kellyssupeheroes seems to be consistently disclosing restoration on comic books now. Of course it is not in the title - you have to read - usually all the way to the bottom. They are hustling fake autographs now. It's amazing how many books out of the dollar bin Stan has signed And how many of such they have for sale.

An important point. A lot of buyers on eBay do not realize that a 100% feedback score doesn't mean much more than the seller cheerfully takes returns. Or as you mention maybe gives a partial refund if someone asks. Kellyssuperheroes has a 100% rating, right? I notice Daniel has branched into autographs as well. Another source of easy pickins's from the uniformed. As for the OP's original post. No knowledgeable collector pays a slabbed 9.4 or better price for a raw book sold on eBay. Even experienced collectors and dealers - physically looking over a book - can get burnt paying NM+ prices for raw. So while I feel a little bad for the buyers getting ripped off, knowledge is seldom free. If they get much lower grades sending the book in for grading maybe they will learn. If they never send in the books to be graded then they never know they bought an overgraded book.

Somehow a duplicate got posted of my post above. Don't see a delete option.

You don't post pictures of the back cover - and if you want a "please grade me" it really should be posted on that forum I think the book is a 2.0. A good day 2.5. At 2.0 the cover being detached from one staple is probably having near zero affect on the grade. The long tear is probably a bigger defect than the staple pull. It will not get a green label because of the cover being detached from one staple. The staple detachment probably will be noted on the label. The seller has already given his answer so it doesn't really matter about the partial refund question. It was reasonable to ask, since you were told that the cover was attached at both staples.