miraclemet

Decoupling this from the GoT, and just thinking about the SS offerings in general (sketch/signing ops): 1. If people were afraid of being blacklisted for "causing trouble" during an offering, I'm not sure how they could actually be affected. It appears (and I've never actually participated in a signing/sketch offering via the SS board, but I've watched them occur over the years) that when a facilitator posts an event it's a simple "first come, first serve" offering. Anyone posting a while there is still a slot, gets a place in the event. How would the retribution occur? The only type of retribution I could see would be slotting the "troublemaker" as the last comission done. 2. I have seen past facilitators be very explicit and stern about the communication path with the artists needing to go thru them. I understand the need for it. I too am curious about this "going behind the back". Was it a communication with the artist regarding his sketch thru the event, or was it the OP contacting the artist for an independent commission. Obviously the facilitators (in most cases) dont have exclusive rights to the artist (who takes commissions and other work not relating to CGC SS). So yes, I think some clarification on this would be helpful. 3. While SS events happen outside of the "marketplace" forum shouldn't they be held to the same marketplace rules? And should there be SS event rules that further set expectations for aspects of the SS experience that fall outside of a normal buy/sell transaction? I know the timelines on these events are impossible to nail down because they are at the discretion of the artist, but certainly when the books are returned to the facilitator there can be a requirement that SS facilitators state their intended shipping policy (weekly shipping trips, monthly, one time only, etc).

and BB I'm not faulting you here, but since the transaction fell off both of your radars until 1/18 (when you rediscovered it, and reminded him of it), is it fair to use that as the 30 day timer? It would avoid his "argument" that it's not his fault he forgot and you forgot too so blah blah... (again, he's in the wrong here, but using the 1/18 date keeps the whole "forgetting" part of this out of the PL argument) So Next week nominate him free and clear based on the 1/18 statement of ammount due, and then send him the PL nomination notice email... (though there's nothing saying you cant go ahead and tell him that's your plan now to try and move things forward faster ) I can see the argument for using the 9/11 invoice date, I'm just saying using the 1/18 makes for an easier case.

He responded: He didn't bump the original thread but the "4 months" comment enabled to zero in on the original thread. I then posted this in the original PM thread: From 1/18/13 which was read, not replied to: I sent him this message on 2/5: If anyone is looking for Incredible Hulk 11 - 15 LMK So on 1/18 both of you were aware that there was an outstanding balance due. Question to those with more PL experience: Would the 30 day window (for him to pay) start on 1/18 when you sent him the full $197 invoice, or way back on 9/11 when the invoice was for 2 books (the hulk 11 & 12, am I reading your timeline correctly?) If its the 1/18 date then he still has a few days to make right before being eligible for nomination. If its the 9/11 date, then he's eligible based on whatever was on that 9/11 invoice.

Those not OK with it are not respected? So those that play by your rules are cool, those that don't bend to your shipping whims are not? Here's how I think you ensure people dont have second thoughts about your future events. If you know your proclivity is to sit on books until all are returned, STATE THAT IN THE ANNOUNCEMENT. Set the expectation and no one will be disappointed and (and Im saying this for your benefit, cause I do hope your future events run smoothly with 100% satisfaction) you cover yourself to if someone comes asking for their book early. Easy enough statement to make in your event: No Books will be shipped untill ALL books from this event have been returned by CGC to me. Or if you are going to hold books until all of their books from all events have been returned to you, SAY THAT. Of course that means that fast-track is pointless unless they all do it. Just trying to help future transactions not have the possibility of this reoccurring.

technically he did say this: Not quite a Mea Culpa, but at least he see he was at fault for not shipping a book that was paid for. Of course you'd have to wade thru lots of other responses from him to sift out that little nugget. But it's in there.

Thanks GoT. I think all thats left is that B767293 confirm all this and that this means he's rescinding his PL nomination based on this equitable end. This is the CGC Boards not Ebay. If you are going to buy from someone look up their reputation / youtube videos / past posts and you'll get a pretty good idea of who someone is. Now in the future people will know how long Godofthunder takes to ship. Which btw, I don't think is all that long considering he's doing 1 of a kind opps. You're right this is not eBay. It should be better. And we should strive to a higher standard You are right buyers should look up sellers. One of those place to look them up is the Probation List. Thats why its here. I dont care if its 1 of a kind opps, or the 900th person selling their Saga books. If you have the books and the person's paid for the books, you should ship the books in a reasonable timeframe baring some catastrophic circumstances (which dont appear to have occured here). 2 months holding a book when it's been requested to ship is a long time whether its an Action 1, or a sketch.

Thanks GoT. I think all thats left is that B767293 confirm all this and that this means he's rescinding his PL nomination based on this equitable end.

When I think of Foolkiller, or Dale Roberts keeping hundreds of orders and thousands of books straight, and being able to get shipments out in a timely and accurate manner it makes me appreciate them (and the other volume guys) that much more.

Obviously its SS facilitators cant promise delivery times, since they dont control CGC return rates, BUT they should (as part of the buying/selling community here) be held to ship books out in a reasonable time frame once they are in hand. Sure its easier to just make 1 trip to the PO, but 1 weekly trip should be a reasonable goal and keep the facilitators out of the problem of having dozens of slabs from multiple signings all getting jumbled up. Likewise, they could always set the expectation on the outset by saying NO books will be shipped out until ALL books from the event have been returned to the facilitator. That way everyone knows what they are getting into from the outset. And maybe GoT set that expectation. I dont know. I think someone else posed the question earlier to GoT but got no response regarding expectations.

Just trying to get caught on this after trying to help the OP understand the use of the Probation List process. Are you referring to this thread from 11: 48 this morning, where you asked your buyers from 4 different sketch ops you offered to let you know who bought how much and to post where to ship it to? I wasnt sure if you were referring to something different... Thats the one he was supposed to read before he PMed you today and before he brought it up in the marketplace discussion forum yesterday? If so I dont know how it relates. I didnt see anything in your post stating when books would be shipped, or apologizing for delays (if they are even delayed, I dont know), just asking people to do some administrative work to help you sort out the various books that you facilitated submissions for. Do I have the wrong thread?

So what "procedure" follows in order to place this facilitator on probation? Sure I might get my sketch eventually, or maybe he'll just provide the refund I already asked for. It's just a pity that something like this is allowed to happen to someone with such reputation. And like I previously said, this guy is still posting comments & ignoring PMs. Starting sketch ops and sales thread, completely ignoring sketches he need to ship first. I know I'm not the only one waiting for their sketch, but coz of this guy's status in the boards, a lot are afraid to voice their concern. I hope you guys figure out a way to change some policy weeding such facilitators. And I'd be explicit in how the Nominee can "right the situation". Sounds like you are giving him two reasonable avenues to make it right 1) Ship the books (with a tracking number provided by a certain date) 2) Refund money in full (via paypal by date) or by check (with tracking number by date). So he then remains on the PL until he resolves it in one of those methods.

Then I say PM him that he's been nominated for the Probation List, and follow the procedure from there. Sounds like he's eligible based on him saying he had the book in the December PM. And I'd be very factual about it all. Your expectation was that books would ship once he had them. He confirmed on Dec 20 that he had them. It has been 30+ days since. Thus you are nominating him for PL.

Applying this rule: 1) The 30-Day Rule a) If a transaction between board members is not completed within 30 days, the offended party may submit the offender's name for inclusion to the HOS/Probation List (hereafter called the PL) then I'd say 30 days from his PM stating he'll mail it he's PL eligible. Has it been 30 days?

So I'm enjoying the SS Trade weekend (even though I havent pulled a trade). Would something like that ever work for general slabbed books? We could run it a'la the VCC (traders each have their one post to show books they are willing to trade, they can list books they are interested in and so on).... Would it be of enough interest to try and do something like this?

a few more days left for this bad boy... right now its a steal!

....unless they have stuff that I want, then they can post sales with their first post....

I think he rescinded his close for a bit longer, year I think the thread opened at 11:30 and was closed by 1:30

So Brian, what is your proposed path to resolution now that he is paying attention to the matter? Is his declaration of "no interest" sufficient, or was there any impact (monetary or otherwise) to you holding the books for 2 months for him? "He said he definitely wanted the hero For Hire #1". 'Nuff said. An I'll take it is an I'll take it....period (whether you post the icon or not). It can't be any more clear than that. Oh I agree its clear that Mkk was clear in his intent to buy, and he should be held to it, I just thought the point of the PL was that there needed to be a way to come to resolution. I dont remember if LoneTree said he was looking for.... deal consummation a back-out monetary penalty for tying up his books for months. or just any sort of answer from the seller since MKK (up until this morning) has never said "Never mind I cant buy the books", but rather kept stringing LT along.. I assume the desire by LT was for the deal to be consummated, but since that doesnt look like it will happen is there any other way for MKK to "make things right" to get off the PL?

So Brian, what is your proposed path to resolution now that he is paying attention to the matter? Is his declaration of "no interest" sufficient, or was there any impact (monetary or otherwise) to you holding the books for 2 months for him?

Vader, Im starting to think you dont read my excessively long posts... See? I like them, so its not that I dislike them, but that I think there is a greater chance for tomfoolery vs the straight forward book sale. In your scenario if you thought a book was not as advertised you could: a) contact the seller and discuss returns/refunds, partial refunds, etc to "make things right". b) nominate the seller for the probation list (which would likely lead back to option a for the sake of resolution). in the mystery box scenario I posed part of what you are buying (along with a box of books) is a "chance" at a high dollar book, and how does a buyer prove that everyone got a "chance" and how does a seller prove that they didn't? I think the suggestion that at the end of the sale mystery boxes are disclosed, especially in the case of the "big prize" type mystery box sale.

But what difference does it make if its a mystery box or a single issue? the difference is a mystery box is tougher to validate. Scenario 1: User A buys Action 1 from User B User A ends up with the stated book, User B ends up with correct ammount of $$$. Pretty straight forward. Issues might be around non-disclosed restoration, or grading disagreements, which can be raised, and dealt with. Scenario 2: User A buys one of 20 mystery boxes from User B who stated that one box would contain a Saga #1 RRP, the rest would be Image books worth $50 or so. User B keeps the RRP and doesnt put it in any of the 20 boxes. User A gets his books(no RRP) and assumes he didn't "win" the RRP, but the other 19 buyers also make the same assumption. How does this get checked? All it takes is 1 buyer to not reveal his mystery box contents for the Exactly. In scenario 2 what if theres a post by the seller that "Mystery Box 8 sold per PM" since some people dont like to do their buys in public, and we dont require buyer info to be disclosed couldnt the Seller just say "oh year I guess box 8 has the Action Comics #1"... So we could cover some sketchiness by saying All mystery box sales must be in-thread/public purchases?

This is the same guy who I responded to with a big long list (30-35) of books he was looking for, gave me no response whatsoever (not even a no) and proceeded to "remove himself from this topic" without so much as a word. He's already shown that he does what he wants when he wants and could care less about anybody but himself. To bad you cant just ban people from posting in the WTB thread... seems that people get ahead of themselves posting in that thread (their own fault).

But what difference does it make if its a mystery box or a single issue? the difference is a mystery box is tougher to validate. Scenario 1: User A buys Action 1 from User B User A ends up with the stated book, User B ends up with correct ammount of $$$. Pretty straight forward. Issues might be around non-disclosed restoration, or grading disagreements, which can be raised, and dealt with. Scenario 2: User A buys one of 20 mystery boxes from User B who stated that one box would contain a Saga #1 RRP, the rest would be Image books worth $50 or so. User B keeps the RRP and doesnt put it in any of the 20 boxes. User A gets his books(no RRP) and assumes he didn't "win" the RRP, but the other 19 buyers also make the same assumption. How does this get checked? All it takes is 1 buyer to not reveal his mystery box contents for the Seller to say "and thats the one that got the RRP!" As others have said, buy from long standing users you trust and they arent going to sacrifice their board reputation for a few scammed bucks. Buy from a new seller with under 100 posts? Avoid.... Right, I understand that you don't know what you are getting, but you can still loose your $$ the same way you can if you buy a single comic. Banning them just because of the unknown is like buying a raw off of ebay you just don't know. Its not even close to the same. You get a book with a grade and price. A scan is usually provided as well. You can inquire ask questions and pretty well know what you are getting. You can do the same on ebay with a raw book. What you cant do is any of the above usually with a mystery box auction unless its done in an almost transparent fashion which makes it more like selling a lot. Alot of very picky buyers on here. You can lose your $$ on either, but you can't dictate how people want to spend their $$. It's simple if you don't like mystery boxes don't buy and if you do go ahead. But please I don't want YOU telling me on what I can and can't buy. I dont think the point is being made around dictating how people want to spend their money. I think the point is being made around the potential difficulty in determining if a fair sale was made (when doing a mystery box trade). [caveat to all of this, I'm still in favor of allowing them and letting it be a buyer beware, everyone make their own decision about whether to send $$ to a low post newbie making promises] A newbie can come on, sell a book that someone buys and pays for. It is easy enough to determine if both parties held up their ends of the transaction. Lots of people here buy from new users, we take the risk. When we get burned it can be probation worthy until things are made right. Maybe the books are overgraded, mabe they didnt even send the books, maybe they intentionally sent the wrong one and packed up and left with the $$$. In those cases we can know if both parties met their obligation. With a mystery box sale it is tougher to determine if the seller met their obligation. Yes as long as they send you a mystery box as described, they met PART of their obligation. But in smashdash's sale part of what the buyer were buying was a chance at some bigger ticket books (why this mystery box sale was different than others), how do you (as a buyer) prove that you didn't actually get a chance at the Big Ticket book? (This is part of why states have Lottery commissions, and regulate casinos) Again, Im in favor of keeping mystery boxes around, but would STRONGLY encourage the community to push for those listing these types of sales to be transparent, and to document the process of the distribution. (Still could totally be a con even then, but thats when you allow people to decide whether they want to give $50 to someone they've never dealt with before).

I know she's technically a superhero, but WW#199 and #200 have always been Gothic Horror to me... My new 9.0 from January CLink auction, replacing my 9.0 (apparent) Well centered, and presenting... sooo happy to get rid of my one PLOD in my set.

Clink Janauary winning came in. Super Psyched for this well centered copy of Wonder Woman #200 even if its only a 9.0