EC ed

Moving some of my prior comments from the other thread over here: Also, I need to heed my own advice. I've gotten into the habit of stating my sales thread return policy like "I will accept returns for a full refund, no questions asked, within a reasonable time period." I think I now need to state a specific time period for the return window, because "reasonable" is subject to debate...apparently including a lifetime. Of course, if I state a specific time period, nothing would prevent me from going beyond that time period on a case-by-case basis...but being specific would seem to provide some clarity around whether someone could pursue a PL nomination, etc... I'm confused again. Please tell me that we are limiting our debate to situations where the seller didn't explicitly specify a return policy...it is only in that case where we have to debate what is "reasonable," right? In other words, do we agree that if (1) a seller states a return policy, (2) a buyer buys a book under those stated terms, (3) seller delivers the agreed upon book to the buyer, and (4) the buyer, for whatever reason, does not return the book for a refund within that stated return window, then there is no entitlement to a refund, and no basis for a PL nomination. Right? Could be. The devil is in the details. This sort of confusion is why terms of sale out there in the real world are paragraphs long in 2 pt. font. If you're a seller and you don't spell out the details, look out. If a seller says "as-is, no returns"...then there is a zero-day return policy and no guarantees. If a seller says "you can return the book for any reason within 30 days, or within 6 months for undisclosed restoration", then that's pretty clear, right? If a seller says "you can return the book for any reason within 6 months", that's yet another clear policy. I could keep going with this, but you get the point. Seller has the opportunity to set terms. If the seller wants a higher likelihood of selling a book, they'll offer more liberal terms. If a buyer isn't comfortable with whatever the terms are, don't buy, or try to negotiate the terms just like you do with price. Where we wind up with issues is when the seller doesn't set clear terms and something goes bad....and, lack of clarity can arise unintentionally. In your example, if a seller says "I guarantee no restoration, and you can return the book within 30 days," I'm not sure what that means. Is it a 30 day return policy for any reason with a lifetime guarantee against restoration, or a 30-day return policy including restoration issues? It's that word guarantee that's tricky. Does it mean the same thing to say "as far as I know the book is unrestored, and you can return the book within 30 days?" Use your language carefully, sellers!

When discussing this one, we need to keep in mind (at least) two separate situations: 1a) when the seller actually specifies a clear and specific return policy; 1b) when the seller does not specify a clear and specific return policy;

Or, I wonder how, for example, mycomicshop would handle it, given this stated 7 day return policy: If you believe we have overgraded a comic Comics graded by CGC, CBCS, and PGX are not returnable. All other comics may be returned for a refund if we are notified via email (customerservice@mycomicshop.com), or by phone (817-860-7827) within seven days of of receipt. Returns must be received at our office within two weeks of original delivery date (Canadian three weeks, international one month). Basic ground postage will be refunded on any books deemed to have been misgraded. Edit: Bob Storms actually distinguishes between normal returns and his restoration guarantee (lifetime, including CGC certification errors ): You have seven (7) days from receipt of the book(s) to return them if you are not satisfied so long as the book(s) is returned in the same condition as it was sent. All CGC sales are final UNLESS I did not disclose that there were date stamps or writing on the book. If you disagree with how CGC graded the book that doesn't qualify you to send it back. Highgradecomics.com has ALWAYS had a NO time limit guarantee that your money would be refunded in the event a book comes back restored. We will now take the further step of extending this to CGC graded books as well. Any book, sold in an unrestored CGC holder by Highgradecomics.com that is later determined by CGC to actually contain restoration not discovered in the previous certification, will be fully refundable. This policy will be retroactive to any CGC books sold by Highgradecomics.com in the past. No if and or buts.

I've been interested in hearing the perspective of some dealers on this matter. I quote, from your website: Returns Columbia Comics offers a 10 day return policy on all items sold. The items must be returned in the same condition as they were received and the buyer must pay any associated return shipping cost. In the event that Columbia Comics makes an error, we will cover any associated return shipping costs. Given what it says there, how would you handle a request from a customer on your website for a return/refund one year after date of purchase?

Our case in point here with Rupp is even worse...seller said something like "no restoration" without mentioning a return window at all...which leads us to our current debate. Does that mean a lifetime guarantee against restoration and an unlimited return window? That's what I see as the debate in Rupp's case. Unfortunately for the seller (and, perhaps, fortunately for Rupp), it's the seller's failure to be clear that prevents him from shutting the door on this transaction.

Could be. The devil is in the details. This sort of confusion is why terms of sale out there in the real world are paragraphs long in 2 pt. font. If you're a seller and you don't spell out the details, look out. If a seller says "as-is, no returns"...then there is a zero-day return policy and no guarantees. If a seller says "you can return the book for any reason within 30 days, or within 6 months for undisclosed restoration", then that's pretty clear, right? If a seller says "you can return the book for any reason within 6 months", that's yet another clear policy. I could keep going with this, but you get the point. Seller has the opportunity to set terms. If the seller wants a higher likelihood of selling a book, they'll offer more liberal terms. If a buyer isn't comfortable with whatever the terms are, don't buy, or try to negotiate the terms just like you do with price. Where we wind up with issues is when the seller doesn't set clear terms and something goes bad....and, lack of clarity can arise unintentionally. In your example, if a seller says "I guarantee no restoration, and you can return the book within 30 days," I'm not sure what that means. Is it a 30 day return policy for any reason with a lifetime guarantee against restoration, or a 30-day return policy including restoration issues? It's that word guarantee that's tricky. Does it mean the same thing to say "as far as I know the book is unrestored, and you can return the book within 30 days?" Use your language carefully, sellers!

I'm confused again. Please tell me that we are limiting our debate to situations where the seller didn't explicitly specify a return policy...it is only in that case where we have to debate what is "reasonable," right? In other words, do we agree that if (1) a seller states a return policy, (2) a buyer buys a book under those stated terms, (3) seller delivers the agreed upon book to the buyer, and (4) the buyer, for whatever reason, does not return the book for a refund within that stated return window, then there is no entitlement to a refund, and no basis for a PL nomination. Right?

In my view, the reason this has become convoluted is that the seller didn't specify a return period. So, that leaves us debating what a reasonable return period should be when one is not specified. That is yet another separate discussion...but that discussion certainly does not suggest that there "should" be a mandatory policy, in general.

You all continue to convolute two separate issues. We should not be discussing a mandatory return/refund period...that should be left to each individual seller in his/her individual sales threads. If I want to start a sales thread with an "as-is no return" policy, I should be free to do so, and you should be free to not buy the books in that thread if you don't like it. What we need to stay focused on is the PL statute of limitations discussion...i.e., how long does someone have to initiate a PL claim on a failed transaction. That's a different question, and (I thought) that's the issue that's on the table.

Also, I need to heed my own advice. I've gotten into the habit of stating my sales thread return policy like "I will accept returns for a full refund, no questions asked, within a reasonable time period." I think I now need to state a specific time period for the return window, because "reasonable" is subject to debate...apparently including a lifetime. Of course, if I state a specific time period, nothing would prevent me from going beyond that time period on a case-by-case basis...but being specific would seem to provide some clarity around whether someone could pursue a PL nomination, etc...

I think this conversation is a lesson that as a seller, one should have a clearly stated return policy in their sales thread rules. Leaving the return policy unstated opens things up to this sort of debate...as we have discussed before, there are no such things as "normal rules" in a sales thread. You must be clear. Suppose this seller, in his sales thread, had said something like "To the best of my knowledge, my books are unrestored. I will accept returns for six months (or three months, or two weeks...whatever the seller chooses) from the date of purchase, no questions asked. After that, you are out of luck. If you don't think this return policy is liberal enough, don't buy my books." We wouldn't be having this PL conversation right now, correct?

I second Jimbo's emotions. The amount of Rupp's claim clearly shows his acceptance of his "responsibility," and I would understand if he never deals with the seller again. My only issue has been whether this particular situation is (or should be) PL enforceable. If so, then perhaps the next time the PL rules discussion gets queued up, we should throw a statute of limitations component into the mix...

I also agree completely, gentlemen. My comment about the absence of stated return policies, etc., was indeed made in the context of the time lapse....perhaps that wasn't clear. My point was that in the absence of a more liberal stated policy, I think it's reasonable to assume that one can push for returns/refunds within a "reasonable" time frame for a book that's not as described. My query was essentially whether 13 months is "reasonable" in this context of a PL nomination. Same point others have made. Now, what I personally would do if I were the seller is a different matter. That's not the point.

Hard to argue with that. However, the issue on the table here in this thread is whether this is PL worthy. No stated restoration guarantee or return/refund policy in that sales thread. What, precisely, is the grounds for PL nomination? That the transaction was not completed as agreed?

Yeah, I'm also not seeing this in the PL domain. I don't notice any explicit return policy stated in that sales thread, and I think one year is beyond the realm of any reasonable return/refund time window expectation. Case in point...a couple months ago when I was gearing up for a sales thread, I discovered that a book I bought a year or two ago from a prominent online comic retailer had a missing page. They missed it, and I missed it when I received the book. I only noticed it when I was grading it in prep for selling it. The thought of contacting that retailer never crossed my mind. Your "personal list?" Up to you. PL? Just not feeling it...

I've always found that to be one of the more interesting cover color schemes...I love it.

Rolling that title forward a few issues, we arrive at one of my Fave Fawcetts:

I dream of finding a blinding white copy of this issue

Outstanding stuff, gentlemen... Myself...I'm partial to the chick-motorcycle combo...a few of these might be pushing the Silver-Bronze threshold, but I'd say they're close enough to squeeze in here....

Dave recently picked up a raw Avengers book from me - I'm really happy that he did! Instant payment and great communication...KUDOS!

Damn millennials.