Jaydogrules

That is some tight grading! What a gorgeous copy. It's going to do really well. Damn that is a nice looking copy. -J.

What do you guys think a nice presenting full cover would go for? With as many coverless, complete copies there are out there, I bet it would push ten grand. -J.

Great copy! Looks somewhat under-graded too. -J.

Good god RMA, either you are a complete hypocrite, or you even forget about what YOU say: RMA, 5/24/16: http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=9367878&fpart=4000 It's become rather evident that you are simpy interested in the belaboring this (non) point solely for the sake of doing so. Earlier in this thread you asked me to name and quote the knowledgeable boardies whom I was citing. When I did so you brushed it off and said it didn't matter (even sinking so low as to dismiss the expertise of one boardie outright simply because he chooses not to post relentlessly on these boards. Classy play man. Classy play. ). Then you ask for "documentation" from Marvel and/or Diamond where they discuss print runs, case packs, etc (even though you appeared to accept the point yourself back in May). And in spite of the fact (as you and I agree) that they are usually very tight lipped on their print run machinations, I not only re-quote verbatim a post by ChuckGower where he stated Marvel's public position on the matter, a Diamond solicit provided by Paul747 literally showing a reference to case packs and how many copies of one book in particular (ASM 667 Dell'otto variant) was in a case pack (225), and a link to another Diamond solicit for the ASM 666 (an event book, no less), where Diamond specifically states that the publisher is only over-printing by 5% for damages, you continue to pretend that nobody has given you the exact documentation that you have demanded, that quite handily suggests exactly what I and numerous others have been saying. Yes, the solicit for the ASM 666 "only" applies to the ASM 666. But if the publisher is "only" over-printing by 5% over orders received on a major event incentive book, do you think that they would arbitrarily over-print by 500% on some other random incentive that is not expected to receive one-third of the orders? Come on man, get serious. You attempt to play yourself off as the last bastion and protector of "logic" and "truth" on these boards, and yet, as your position on this topic has steadily deteriorated into utter nonsense (trying to use irrelevant printing data from 45 years ago), personal swipes, and blatant hypocrisy ("no one has said Marvel 'lied', oh wait! I actually did!" ), it has become fairly obvious that you are less interested in having an honest debate, or making any concessions, even as your points look more and more ridiculous and ignoring all of the actual "data" that you have asked for, and are more interested in sticking to your guns, even as you are standing on a ship that has sunk. Have fun with that. -J.

Hey guys , here's a "modern heating up" that's isn't Walking Dead" related. http://www.ebay.com/itm/PUNISHER-2-Jerome-Opena-1-50-Variant-CGC-9-8-/192007309764?hash=item2cb48709c4:g:X-8AAOSwImRYDpDg Lasted about an hour then sold full boat. Haven't seen a raw one of these in forever (and never seen a 9.8 for sale). Will probably stay hot, if you can find one (1:50 on a small >32,000 Comichron), with the renewed and resurgent interest in my man The Punisher. -J.

Congratulations on finally snagging this copper age grail. Such a great book. -J.

Why ? It just proves (again) that the "PQ" on the label isn't what makes or breaks a book. -J. Cause this would be a data point you would cherry pick to try and prove your argument. No need to "cherry pick". There are a bounty of examples that prove, and will continue to prove that point. -J.

Why ? It just proves (again) that the "PQ" on the label isn't what makes or breaks a book. -J.

That was the weakest of five otherwise strong sales this week. And for obvious good reason! Regardless of the tape, that book must have been graded during one of CGC's extreme loose grading time periods. In no way does that even look close to a CGC 2.5 copy compared to what we are seeing from them nowadays. After looking at it on a bigger screen, yeah you're right. I've seen 1.8's that look better than that. -J.

You're a retailer, correct? Do you, or do you not get ratio incentives for books that you reorder? If you don't, then that's a distinct difference between the incentive variants and order alls. A company knows that they're not going to need any additional variants for reorders. The number that they choose to overprint the regular editions for reorders involves some guesswork. Your numbers shows they've moved to err on the side of caution in recent years. To actually answer your question.....to get the incentives, the orders have to be placed by the original FOC (final order cut-off) so no, re-orders at a later date would not qualify for an incentive, not even the drekky ones from the occasionally remaindered case pack. Your point is well taken. -J. But they don't order up to the case pack. Did you not see the numbers? What would the point be of order up to the case pack on a book that's a part of printing where overall you don't order up to the case pack? According to Marvel's own numbers, documented per law, the numbers don't work out to case pack size. PROOF. The proof is (at least) Marvel's own public statements, summarized by you, and re-iterated by multiple other Diamond account holding boardies, as well as (once again) this link: http://www.diamondcomics.com/Home/1/1/3/732?articleID=109267 ...specifically referencing only a 5% "over-print" for damages on the incentives on an issue that was also a pretty big event that year. None of these things exist independently or in a vacuum. Taken together, they are more than enough circumstantial evidence to support what I and many others have said and suggested. You are free to disagree, but the competing information that you have produced does not seem to be on point. I can't speak on the numbers for those 2 regular covers as reported ten years ago. That would seem to me to be a different conversation altogether. But I will observe that if Marvel was wasting that much product on every book they published every month, they probably would not have remained in the comic book publishing business for very long, thus suggesting that those two examples are outliers and not the norm (as to the regular issues of a book, back then). -J.

You're a retailer, correct? Do you, or do you not get ratio incentives for books that you reorder? If you don't, then that's a distinct difference between the incentive variants and order alls. A company knows that they're not going to need any additional variants for reorders. The number that they choose to overprint the regular editions for reorders involves some guesswork. Your numbers shows they've moved to err on the side of caution in recent years. To actually answer your question.....to get the incentives, the orders have to be placed by the original FOC (final order cut-off) so no, re-orders at a later date would not qualify for an incentive, not even the drekky ones from the occasionally remaindered case pack. Your point is well taken. -J.

I think majority understands that they print more than ordered to cover damages. Which is understandable. How much more is the question. As it applies to "incentive" variants, based on the link I posted above, the answer looks to be 5%. As for regular covers, according to multiple boardies, it is in the 5-10% range. Whatever they do above that for re-orders looks to vary by another potential 5-10% (at least from the data ChuckGower posted from ten years ago). Either way, all of this is still based on how many copies of a book are actually ordered. None of these numbers exist in a vacuum. -J. Can we get a list, preferably with links to the relevant posts, of who these "multiple boardies" are and what they have said? "Multiple boardies" sounds awesome as a completely vague support for whatever you want it to mean, but having some idea of who these "multiple boardies" are and what their knowledge base on print runs is would be really useful. If you can't/won't produce this, please stop citing these unnamed "multiple boardies" as support. Already done. Scroll back a few a pages. And the link directly from Diamond shuts down the dispute anyway. -J.

I think majority understands that they print more than ordered to cover damages. Which is understandable. How much more is the question. As it applies to "incentive" variants, based on the link I posted above, the answer looks to be 5%. As for regular covers, according to multiple boardies, it is in the 5-10% range. Whatever they do above that for re-orders looks to vary by another potential 5-10% (at least from the data ChuckGower posted from ten years ago). Either way, all of this is still based on how many copies of a book are actually ordered. None of these numbers exist in a vacuum. -J.

That was the weakest of five otherwise strong sales this week. In addition to the 5.5, there was: 1.8 SS- $10,250 2.0- $10,329 NG Coverless/Incomplete- $2500 (congrats FlyingDonut) It was a good week for AF 15. -J.

Not bad for a 2nd print. Third print actually. -J.

The minimum I've seen for store and convention exclusives is 500. For their own variants (ratio, or otherwise ) they can print as few as they want, but realistically they wouldn't print less than a case pack (up to 250 copies). -J. 500 if there is another 3k ordered. The new ratio you are seeing is 3k color, 1.5 sketch, 500 other. You can't just order 500. So you're saying 500 Is the minimum for a book , with the caveat that they order at least 4500 "other" copies of the issue? That still means that the "minimum" for a particular variant of the book they could order is still 500- hence the recent 500-copy "secret variant" craze. (I do know that retailers only needed to order at least 500 copies (two case packs) of their store exclusive for the ASM 666 event as well: http://www.diamondcomics.com/Home/1/1/3/732?articleID=109267 - notice the specific reference of only a "5% over print" for damages toward the bottom. Once again supporting the statements of knowledgeable boardies who have stated that this is about all a publisher will produce above actual orders to cover waste, with regards to incentive variants). -J.

The minimum I've seen for store and convention exclusives is 500. For their own variants (ratio, or otherwise ) they can print as few as they want, but realistically they wouldn't print less than a case pack (up to 250 copies). -J.

RMA, you are also a broken record. Everything you have just said has already been answered. Have you already forgotten ? Again, according to Mr. Gower (on 2/2/16), Marvel's public position was the following: So yes, the publishers (at least Marvel), are talking, and that's their official position. And yet he and you have both either said or implied they are "lying" about it. Here's where you said it: http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=9602105&fpart=15 Here's where Mr. Gower implied it: http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=9602105&fpart=17 When someone repeatedly accuses one of the largest publisher of comic books in the world of "lying" to everyone in their public releases yes, you are essentially accusing them of conspiratorial conduct (why else "lie", then?), and are thusly calling their ratio variant program a fraud. Sorry, pal, but if you are going to make or imply libelous allegations like that, you better darn well bring the goods with "proof" and "facts" and "transcripts", and "print-outs", or whatever the hell else you keep asking me and others for, yet provide absolutely none of yourself, even though you are the one making the provocative and unsubstantiated claims. And based on what exactly? Because "sometimes" an excess of inventory of a handful of ratio variants end up for sale through secondary channels? That's all you got? Seriously? Again, "why" this can happen has already been repeatedly explained to you. But if you think the fact that Marvel burns off remaindered case packs of a couple hundred drekky variants (out of tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands printed) every year or two is "proof" of a conspiracy/and or that those couple hundred variants (not even all them ratio variants, as we have seen) are representative of or can or should be extrapolated to their entire incentive ratio variant program, then good on you, mate. You are indeed entitled to whatever far-fetched opinions your imagination can muster. -J.

Comichron doesn't adjust anything, which you would know if you ever had the slightest clue what you were talking about. That sure is a huge "if," isn't it? But thanks for proving (once again) that you don't understand the Comichron numbers at all. Comichron does adjust numbers down for books that are returnable. I think they knock off about 10% off No, Comichron does not adjust anything. Diamond adjusts the numbers. Well, at least Jaydogrules can take solace in the fact that he isn't the only one who doesn't understand the Comichron numbers. Actually , you're the one who got it wrong. You would have been better off simply saying nothing further on the topic. But nice attempt to save face by trying to split hairs on a point that everyone else has already agreed is moot to this thread anyway. -J.

Chuck, you really are like a broken record. Your bizarrely hostile and vitriolic style of posting aside, you may want to double check your "facts" again. First, none of the Action Figure or Blanks that you copy and pasted from the "Star Wars Variant Sale" from a year ago above were ratio based. Yes, they are "variants", but they are not ratio variants. I notice you like to try to bleed the two together to try to prove your points, but doing so only makes all of your arguments look like red herrings. So that automatically makes 12 of the 38 books (32%) irrelevant to this conversation. Secondly, another unique 16 of the 38 (42%) are event, #1 issues. How, or why event-based books will at times have a greater likelihood of unclaimed overages has already been exaplained to you (and the point further supported by the fact that nearly half of the books on the list are "#1" issues). Evidently realizing this point, I notice that you then re-post the variant sale from, what was it, four years ago(?), and then cherry pick out a handful of drekky ratio variants there (out of the ~225 variants listed, most of which were not incentive based) to try to show that, no, not "all" of the offered variants are event and/or Star Wars based. Okay, fair enough. However, how or why this too happens has already been explained to you, but I'll say it one more time for you- Given the fact that the books do have 5-10% printed above actual orders to account for the possibility of damages, rounded up to the nearest case pack, YES, there will be excess inventory on rare occasion that can be liquidated. Particularly on variants, much like the ones on that list, that generated little retailer interest upon their initial offering. Your problem (and this is where your overly biased and negative opinions cloud your judgement), is that you attribute these rare and occasional overages to a vast publisher conspiracy, encompassing all variants, all the time, rather than to what it actually is- the inexact nature of the publishing business. But I'll throw out a real world apples to apples comparison for you that should fully and finally highlight the folly at the mere suggestion (that you continue to try to make) that publishers routinely over-print all of their books, with no regard to the FOC or actual orders placed: You are a retailer, right? Do you regularly order 200 copies of a title that only has a 25 customer pull list and only averages 40 copies sold a month? Would it make about as much sense for you to do that as it would for a publisher to print 75,000 copies of a book that only received 30,000 orders? or 2000 copies of a ratio variant when only 250 shops qualified and ordered the book? Isn't this, in fact, why you are such a big proponent of returnability to publishers in the first place? Why do you think publishers are in such a hurry to print waste, while you are (obviously) in no hurry to order it, and want to be able to send it back even, if your orders should happen to be even marginally off for the month? Food for thought. Speaking of DC's rebirth returnability, I noticed that you completely glossed over the smokescreen and irrelevance of even bringing that up as it pertains to Comichron and this discussion of ratio variants, so there's no need to discuss that any further. But I do find it odd, that, in spite of the fact of how many times that you like to say that I am "WRONG" (in all caps) about something, and trying to "DECEIVE" (also in all caps) people, you did not actually say what I am "wrong" about. Was I "wrong" about the one ratio variant you first mentioned being the Original Sin #1 event book? Nope. Was I "wrong" about the publishers printing up to a case pack? Nope. You yourself agree and further stated that case pack sizes vary based on (among other things) the thickness of the book, and you are right about that(!) They range from about 125 (or 150)-250, in increments of 25. Was I "wrong" about Rebirth and DC's returnabiliy, and how Comichron being a moot point to this discussion, since Rebirth did not have any ratio variants? Nope. Was I "wrong" about the vast majority of the few ratio variants (as demonstrated by your cut and paste) being offered on the secondary market being either "event" books (Star Wars), or a "#1"? Nope. You can stomp your feet and shout in all caps, raising your fist to the sky in frustration all you want. But at the end of the day, the entire crux of your statements and opinions are premised on nothing more than the belief in a publisher conspiracy that defies not only standard publishing conventions, but common sense. But you are certainly entitled to believe in whatever you want to believe in, no matter how remote or far-fetched or dare I say lunatic (?), that belief is. -J.

Comichron doesn't adjust anything, which you would know if you ever had the slightest clue what you were talking about. That sure is a huge "if," isn't it? But thanks for proving (once again) that you don't understand the Comichron numbers at all. Comichron does adjust numbers down for books that are returnable. I think they knock off about 10% off A. How does a blanket 10% reduction in their estimate reflect how many were actually ordered and/or actually sold? They seem to be guessing. B. How does that 10% reduction in Comichron's estimate affect how many variants are actually printed? C. How many layers of guesses does this mean we have to use now? The easiest answer to answer to all three questions is : "N/A" - the point about returnability on the Rebirth titles was a smokescreen and is irrelevant to this discussion of ratio variants. -J.

Allow me to untangle Chuck Gower's labored word spaghetti for you then. Fact: Chuck Gower is attempting to qualify and walk back his his own earlier posts and statements on the issue, because he is one of the few retailers on the boards who is notoriously and consistently anti-variant. Yet his original post I linked earlier accurately summarized Marvel and Diamond 's public position (regardless of whether or not Chuck Gower thinks they are "lying". Hey, there's that blasted conspiracy theory again ). Fact: The only "Star Wars variants" that Chuck Gower mentions with any specificity are the Action Figure books, and those were not ratio variants, so that is irrelevant to the conversation. Fact: The one, single book that Chuck Gower is attempting to prove his alleged conspiracy with now (the ratio book that he claims he was able to order 30 copies of) is the Original Sin #1 1:25. Original Sin was a large event from 2014, the first issue was the top seller for the month with nearly 150,000 copies ordered, and it alone had a dozen variants , only two of which were ratio (a 1:25 and a 1:50). With that in mind, it's not hard to fathom why there would be unclaimed/unordered overages on a 1:25. However The fact that Chuck Gower was able to order 30 copies of it only proves that there were at least 30 unneeded copies of that book. Even if Chuck Gower ordered 30 copies, 15 other guys ordered 10, 15 more retailers ordered 2, and 35 others wanted one copy each, that would still be enough to account for the remnants of one case pack. Mr. Gower's attempts to extrapolate that one book out into the entire variant market and all variants ever printed by implying that publishers do in fact wildly and deliberately over print books that no one ordered (despite public statements from at least one publisher to the contrary) is his own preposterous conspiracy theorizing again. Fact: Chuck Gower , again attempting to use another extreme , massive event (e.g. Star Wars launch, Original Sin launch, etc.) to prove his point , now brings up the massive DC Rebirth launch However he is disingenuously (and knowingly) muddying the waters here, since A) His statements about re-orders and Comichron have nothing to do with ratio vatiants, B) Rebirth didn't have any ratio variants offered , and C) DC allows returnability anyway (including on all of the #1's), so his point is doubly moot (meaning their Comichron sell through numbers are actually reduced by returnability , and not low and/or under-reported due to "re-orders" as he implies- hence all of the asterisks you see next to the DC Rebirth titles on Comichron) And, on the flip side, if Comichron has enough time to adjust its final figures down for returns , then, obviously it has enough time to adjust up for any potential re-orders as well (which is why they have the lag time that they do every month before they release their reports for the prior month). But again , this entire point is irrelevant with respect to ratio variants. What was that RMA said about being entitled to your own opinion , but not your own facts ? -J.

A 5.5 just sold on eBay for $33k. http://www.ebay.com/itm/AMAZING-FANTASY-15-CGC-5-5-OW-ORIGIN-1ST-APPEARANCE-SPIDER-MAN-CGC-1262383001-/272418669623?hash=item3f6d6b0437:g:4N8AAOSwh2xYBpaO -J.

You basically just summed up how both store and convention organizer books get commissioned for printing through Marvel. -J.

I just read through the entire thread and never once did Chuck Gower say Marvel prints to the nearest case. what he did say was: Nothing about cases whatsoever. But evidence that Marvel has a PR stance they don't follow. Unfortunately I don't have the time to read through all the other threads. Interesting discussion. Then you didn't read closely enough: But, yeah, they're probably just lying. -J.