Jaydogrules

Wow. A little like the pot calling the kettle black isn't it? If by "negative" you mean I offer a dissenting opinion, then yes I'm "negative". Keep in mind though that I am also a buyer, not a dealer on these boards, so maybe you want to make a note as to what actual BUYERS are looking for and willing to pay for, instead of talking to mostly other DEALERS who are just going to tell you what you want to hear because they are using the same sales tactics as you. -J.

Ugh. Point being since there is no empirical evidence that the newsstand versions consistently sell for any kind of "premium" why turn away 90% of your potential customers by trying to charge one. -J.

Wrong. It's not even that way now. Try checking the sale prices for ASM 300 with UPC vs. direct edition. Try checking the sale prices for MOS 18 with UPC vs. direct edition. Try checking the sale prices for Spawn 1 with UPC vs. direct edition. Generally, copper age comics are worthless, so it doesn't matter... therefore there is no difference when we're talking about $2 or less. When a comic has value, though, there is a difference... not to everyone... but enough people know that newsstand copies were badly handled and often returned to know that you can't find them in top shape as often as direct editions. Those people do know the difference... and, yes, some people don't know the difference or don't care. The market reflects the activities of both the people who know and the people who don't. When you average "no difference" with "some difference", you still get "some difference". If someone is willing to drink the dealer Kool Aid that there should be a "premium" for newsstand versions, more power to them. But for every person who will pay a premium there are far more who won't, thus no real price differences ever actually develop. It really is just a way for somebody to feel like they have something that is more "rare" or "special" than someone else. If they are willing to pay more to get that feeling, great. But the market doesn't consistently support the alleged price difference in any of the books that you just mentioned. -J. Actually Jay, check again. I think it does. (And all because WE discussed it HERE). I checked. It's the same thing as the white label/black label Walking Dead 1 non-issue. One person might pay a little more. Everyone sees that one slightly higher sale and thinks theirs should now be "worth" more too. Then three other sales or listings pop up where there was no "premium" paid. Or a listing where someone is specifically asking for more because of the UPC code sits unsold forever. Everyone ignores those. Hence, no real price difference. -J.

Wrong. It's not even that way now. Try checking the sale prices for ASM 300 with UPC vs. direct edition. Try checking the sale prices for MOS 18 with UPC vs. direct edition. Try checking the sale prices for Spawn 1 with UPC vs. direct edition. Generally, copper age comics are worthless, so it doesn't matter... therefore there is no difference when we're talking about $2 or less. When a comic has value, though, there is a difference... not to everyone... but enough people know that newsstand copies were badly handled and often returned to know that you can't find them in top shape as often as direct editions. Those people do know the difference... and, yes, some people don't know the difference or don't care. The market reflects the activities of both the people who know and the people who don't. When you average "no difference" with "some difference", you still get "some difference". If someone is willing to drink the dealer Kool Aid that there should be a "premium" for newsstand versions, more power to them. But for every person who will pay a premium there are far more who won't, thus no real price differences ever actually develop. It really is just a way for somebody to feel like they have something that is more "rare" or "special" than someone else. If they are willing to pay more to get that feeling, great. But the market doesn't consistently support the alleged price difference in any of the books that you just mentioned. -J.

There's a decent looking .5 coming up in the next comic link auction as well. -J.

I think that you are misconstruing toys and pajamas being sold to the parents with little kids as investor interest in the actual comic book. Yet I have never once even implied that TMN 1 is a worthless book. It may not be a "must get" to most collectors, but obviously there are enough out there to keep the book inflated to a certain extent. It's just hyper inflated now with this upcoming movie. If you need anyone to blame for this entire ludicrous conversation, blame the OP who began the entire thread by comparing turtles to the first appearance of Spiderman. And for crying out loud, please stop trying to compare the turtle book with classic silver age teams such as the ones in my current sig line . That's just as preposterous. No, their collector base is nowhere near any of those books either. TMNT are closer to the Power Rangers, if anything. -J.

Shill bidding on ebay to pump a hot book of the moment is nothing new. TMNT 1 has value obviously but has only experienced this sudden increased interest because of the movie. Right now it is the "must have" book so long time owners and speculators are cashing out. This is the stuff bubbles are made of. TMNT has a very narrow collector base that its smaller than normal print run has always been able to satiate. When this wave of additional interest passes it will very likely shrivel back to that base and price deflation will surely result. To say these kinds of predictions (which are actually based on market trends) are "sour grapes", would be like me equating all of this sudden talk about how awesome and important and "key" TMNT 1 is to carnival barking by guys who have the book to sell, and/or guys who have recently purchased the book at the height of the bubble market, and don't want to feel they have overpaid. These kinds of conversations just don't happen with the AF 15 market. I'm sure that's part of the reason why 2 out of 3 poll voters would take the AF 15, as opposed to 1 out of 4 for the TMNT 1. -J. Movie trailer hasn't even come out yet for TMNT. Bubble hasn't even begun yet. Everything you said applies to all your books you have in your signature line. You do get that right? Avenger #1, TOS 39, JIM 83, and yes even AF 15 are all bubble inflated because of the movies as the main factor. Have you not owned an OSPG then? TMNT #1 whether you want to admit or not is usually #1 top copper book. It had a stable blue chip market value since the 90's. More people pick AF 15 cause Spider-man is a generally perceived as a better character. Who the F doesn't know that. Without 6 Spider-man movies and counting AF 15's would be worth much less of what they currently trade for. BTW every single market in the world is manipulated by the big players, and pawns are used in the process. No such thing as the "free market," a few will always control many. Of course and by the time the trailer does come out those "few" will have already moved onto the next hot book and the market manipulation cycle will begin again. For you to fail to acknowledge that shows your own bias toward a book you obviously have a vested interest in. TMNT 1 is a niche book with a smallish collector base. Movie talk brings in the kinds of people who artificially and temporarily pump up books before the inevitable dump. These are not the kind of buyers that bring price stability to a book. I'm simply re-stating a generally accepted fact, so don't shoot the messenger. -J.

Shill bidding on ebay to pump a hot book of the moment is nothing new. TMNT 1 has value obviously but has only experienced this sudden increased interest because of the movie. Right now it is the "must have" book so long time owners and speculators are cashing out. This is the stuff bubbles are made of. TMNT has a very narrow collector base that its smaller than normal print run has always been able to satiate. When this wave of additional interest passes it will very likely shrivel back to that base and price deflation will surely result. To say these kinds of predictions (which are actually based on market trends) are "sour grapes", would be like me equating all of this sudden talk about how awesome and important and "key" TMNT 1 is to carnival barking by guys who have the book to sell, and/or guys who have recently purchased the book at the height of the bubble market, and don't want to feel they have overpaid. These kinds of conversations just don't happen with the AF 15 market. I'm sure that's part of the reason why 2 out of 3 poll voters would take the AF 15, as opposed to 1 out of 4 for the TMNT 1. -J.

Generally there is no price difference because not enough people care either way. And it will most likely always be that way. -J.

no one said the speculators weren't making bigger, extremely risky bets on it right now with the movie coming out. In fact I think that's what most people have said. Why do guys always want to believe that their "hot book" of the moment will be the ones that's different? Human nature I suppose. Wake me up in the Fall on this one.... -J.

Here it is. Not taking a position. Just giving link. Would present beautifully if it didn't have that Stamp and black marker mark on it. If only . Not all 4.0s are created equal. -J. yes I know thank you. You're welcome. And congrats again on the great pick up. (thumbs u -J.

Here it is. Not taking a position. Just giving link. Would present beautifully if it didn't have that Stamp and black marker mark on it. If only . Not all 4.0s are created equal. -J.

+1 on that for sure. That's what most guys have been saying since Post 2. If both guys agreed to the trade and are happy with it, then neither was "ripped off". And I think a lot of us may have lost some value on a trade here or there in order to get a book we really, really wanted. Happens all the time. -J. Dude this thread has nothing to do with the trade anymore. OP wanted validation which he got, I didn't need it on my end. Everything you both had said is pretty common sense. This thread is based on Af 15 CGC 4.0 for TMNT #1 CGC 9.6 straight up, and the problem is not all the facts where disclosed to see why Greg (OP) made an correct trade as did I. He used a 5k book to make a 8k trade, and no ones knows what I paid for my raw TMNT #1. Greg's profit is 3k and with a book he loves. Ding ding ding Winner! I would have preferred Greg to have not started this thread cause this transaction is none of anyone's business to be blunt. Greg needed more validation for himself because this was a big trade for him, and not so much as me which I get. This thread shifted to me when people said TMNT #1 is fad/bubble book. That makes me not take anyone seriously who thinks on those lines. The poll specifically asks "Who got the better deal?". Most of the peripheral conversations that resulted pertain to the overall long term value proposition of each book. Those who have chimed in don't need to know how much each guy was into their book in order to make the call on that question. Answer: You did. (*see poll results) -J. I can debate you on that then. AF 15 CGC 4.0 last sale didnt even crack 8k so last sale to last sale both books are equal. Now maybe the Heritage last sale was a POS looking AF 15 in CGC 4.0, that would be my best guess. See I am being a pain in the arse as well! Long-term IMO as many feel the same that AF 15 is the better book. I don't really see anyone even going against that statement even the OP. This thread was started for validation only, not for educational purposes. No one learned anything from this thread that isn't blatantly obvious. I did see what people lack the basic knowledge to see what a mega key is past 1975 though. I kid I kid I get the feeling you're a nice guy and you don't want valiant to have a bad taste in his mouth about the deal if he should have second thoughts. Clearly 2 out of three people that voted would have made the same trade that you made. Valiant loves his turtles and more power to him for that. You're both adults and one must assume you both knew what you were doing and made the trade you wanted to make. That's all that matters. And yes, that lower sale of a 4.0 on heritage that just sold last night looks like dog poo poo compared to yours. That's why well presenting copies in the same grade almost always command a premium. (thumbs u -J.

+1 on that for sure. That's what most guys have been saying since Post 2. If both guys agreed to the trade and are happy with it, then neither was "ripped off". And I think a lot of us may have lost some value on a trade here or there in order to get a book we really, really wanted. Happens all the time. -J. Dude this thread has nothing to do with the trade anymore. OP wanted validation which he got, I didn't need it on my end. Everything you both had said is pretty common sense. This thread is based on Af 15 CGC 4.0 for TMNT #1 CGC 9.6 straight up, and the problem is not all the facts where disclosed to see why Greg (OP) made an correct trade as did I. He used a 5k book to make a 8k trade, and no ones knows what I paid for my raw TMNT #1. Greg's profit is 3k and with a book he loves. Ding ding ding Winner! I would have preferred Greg to have not started this thread cause this transaction is none of anyone's business to be blunt. Greg needed more validation for himself because this was a big trade for him, and not so much as me which I get. This thread shifted to me when people said TMNT #1 is fad/bubble book. That makes me not take anyone seriously who thinks on those lines. The poll specifically asks "Who got the better deal?". Most of the peripheral conversations that resulted pertain to the overall long term value proposition of each book. Those who have chimed in don't need to know how much each guy was into their book in order to make the call on that question. Answer: You did. (*see poll results) -J.

Have you seen the copy of AF 15 Valiant traded? It's a beauty. He would have been equally justified in demanding the same kind of premium. The kind dealers like Gator are willing to pay wholesale even, to get an AF 15 like his. -J.

+1 on that for sure. That's what most guys have been saying since Post 2. If both guys agreed to the trade and are happy with it, then neither was "ripped off". And I think a lot of us may have lost some value on a trade here or there in order to get a book we really, really wanted. Happens all the time. -J.

Fixed that for you. While both were done by Miller, Daredevil was good, Ronin was not. You could argue the covers to Ronin were pretty good. touché. (thumbs u -J. did you just include deadpool and venom in a list of the most amazing characters ever created? Deadpool was essentially a rip off of DC's Deathstroke and Venom... Venom was nothing more than a fanboy idea the Shooter paid $200 bucks for back in the 80s... ....and Batman was originally a rip off of the Shadow . I actually just rattled off a list of popular, known named comic book characters of varying ages in order to make a point about the basically indistinguishable group of the TMNT. -J. You should counting your star your FF book below has become worthless after all the past and now future disgraceful movie adaptations. A real shame Marvel didn't get the right backs. And if it had become worthless, I wouldn't care since I love FF either way. Though it should be noted that the horrible movies did little to hurt the value and demand for the book since the book is historically significant within the comic book collecting world. That's something a bunch of ridiculous movies being made will never change. Oh, and by the way TMNT 1 < FF 1 as well. By a whole, whole, whole lot. -J. Yes and? Did you not see where I said TMNT #1 isn't in the top 100 comic books of all time. Well 50 for sure they might squeeze out at between 75-100. Yes I did. Wait a minute, aren't you the guy who came up on the nice presenting AF 15 and a +$2000 give or take net in this whole deal? -J.

And it was a RAW copy. Amazing prices!! I wonder what a coverless raw copy of TMNT 1 would go for.... -J.

Fixed that for you. While both were done by Miller, Daredevil was good, Ronin was not. You could argue the covers to Ronin were pretty good. touché. (thumbs u -J. did you just include deadpool and venom in a list of the most amazing characters ever created? Deadpool was essentially a rip off of DC's Deathstroke and Venom... Venom was nothing more than a fanboy idea the Shooter paid $200 bucks for back in the 80s... ....and Batman was originally a rip off of the Shadow . I actually just rattled off a list of popular, known named comic book characters of varying ages in order to make a point about the basically indistinguishable group of the TMNT. -J. You should counting your star your FF book below has become worthless after all the past and now future disgraceful movie adaptations. A real shame Marvel didn't get the right backs. And if it had become worthless, I wouldn't care since I love FF either way. Though it should be noted that the horrible movies did little to hurt the value and demand for the book since the book is historically significant within the comic book collecting world. That's something a bunch of ridiculous movies being made will never change. Oh, and by the way TMNT 1 < FF 1 as well. By a whole, whole, whole lot. -J.

Fixed that for you. While both were done by Miller, Daredevil was good, Ronin was not. You could argue the covers to Ronin were pretty good. touché. (thumbs u -J. did you just include deadpool and venom in a list of the most amazing characters ever created? Deadpool was essentially a rip off of DC's Deathstroke and Venom... Venom was nothing more than a fanboy idea the Shooter paid $200 bucks for back in the 80s... ....and Batman was originally a rip off of the Shadow . I actually just rattled off a list of popular, known named comic book characters of varying ages in order to make a point about the basically indistinguishable group of the TMNT. -J.

Wrong. Twice. I didn't know there was a TMNT movie coming out. I knew that TMNT was turning 30 and I could still afford a high grade copy. Secondly, I knew that turning thirty plus a tiny print run does not mean that people should wait. Wait for what? More to be printed? For the "newness" to wear off? There are VERY few copies of Action #1 and Detective #27. What happened when there were a couple of high sales? The whole ship rose quickly. Do you think one low sale can knock down Action #1 and Detective #27? It only takes a few sales of a tiny print run to make the price insane... for good. If you think I'm just talking about the Golden Age big two (Action #1 and Detective #27), try buying a Maxx Black. I think your main problem is that you keep trying to compare actually culturally significant books, from different ages with singular unique characters to TMNT. That's a reach, and that's putting it mildly. No one is saying that the book isn't worth anything. What most are saying (as the results of your poll also indicate) is that a NM+ copy of TMNT 1 < VG AF 15. And that applies now and 10, 20, 30 years from now, whether each franchise releases 10 movies or 0 movies. What's that old saying about asking questions that you don't want to know the answer to? -J. Why are you under the impression that TMNT isn't culturally significant? The animated series was the third highest rated cartoon for kids aged 2-11 last month. That seems like something. It is something. How much a third place cartoon for grade schoolers has on mainstream culture is debatable though. I guess the movie will be the real test of that. But again, as a comic book, it historically appealed to a niche collector pool, and that was already after, that cartoon, all the toys, and what, three movies that came out awhile back? I'm simply saying that the movie has artificially (and temporarily) increased demand from speculators, and that is not the kind of demand that you want to make a high four figure or five figure long term play on. From a purely value standpoint of course. -J.

Fixed that for you. While both were done by Miller, Daredevil was good, Ronin was not. You could argue the covers to Ronin were pretty good. touché. (thumbs u -J.

Wrong. Twice. I didn't know there was a TMNT movie coming out. I knew that TMNT was turning 30 and I could still afford a high grade copy. Secondly, I knew that turning thirty plus a tiny print run does not mean that people should wait. Wait for what? More to be printed? For the "newness" to wear off? There are VERY few copies of Action #1 and Detective #27. What happened when there were a couple of high sales? The whole ship rose quickly. Do you think one low sale can knock down Action #1 and Detective #27? It only takes a few sales of a tiny print run to make the price insane... for good. If you think I'm just talking about the Golden Age big two (Action #1 and Detective #27), try buying a Maxx Black. I think your main problem is that you keep trying to compare actually culturally significant books, from different ages with singular unique characters to TMNT. That's a reach, and that's putting it mildly. No one is saying that the book isn't worth anything. What most are saying (as the results of your poll also indicate) is that a NM+ copy of TMNT 1 < VG AF 15. And that applies now and 10, 20, 30 years from now, whether each franchise releases 10 movies or 0 movies. Reminds me of that old saying about asking questions that you don't want to know the answer to. -J.

You've posted so many times in this topic, people might begin to think you know what you're talking about. Let's pretend you do... So please show me where I can find this bloated bubble. This graph shows a small post 2008 dip. Everything dipped in '08. This isn't that big a dip either comparitive to everything else. This indicates it is holding it's value very well. Small dip? It lost almost half its value and stayed around there until the movie announcement. Come on guys. -J. Come on, Jesus christ your posts make me want to pull all my hair out. So movie hype only applies to TMNT #1? Af 15 same rinse and repeat dude. You're wrong again. AF 15 already surpassed SC 4 as the top silver age book long before the first new set of movies were ever released. Did the movies hurt the values? Of course not. But AF 15 does not need the movies in order to maintain its value and increase. Just look at the last two that were released, which ranged from sub par to crappy. Didn't hurt the books one bit. Unlike SC 22 which collapsed in value after the Green Lantern movie came out and was horrible. The movie is the ONLY think stoking speculator interest in TMNT 1 right now, and the small print run can actually work against it because of that since it will only take one low sale to bring down the house of cards. -J. Jesus Christ once again. So would AF 15 have gone up as much as they have without the 6 movies and counting or Metro's CGC 9.6 million private sale impacting all the lesser grades? maybe you should read my post again. -J.

You've posted so many times in this topic, people might begin to think you know what you're talking about. Let's pretend you do... So please show me where I can find this bloated bubble. This graph shows a small post 2008 dip. Everything dipped in '08. This isn't that big a dip either comparitive to everything else. This indicates it is holding it's value very well. Small dip? It lost almost half its value and stayed around there until the movie announcement. Come on guys. -J. Come on, Jesus christ your posts make me want to pull all my hair out. So movie hype only applies to TMNT #1? Af 15 same rinse and repeat dude. You're wrong again. AF 15 already surpassed SC 4 as the top silver age book long before the first new set of movies were ever released. Did the movies hurt the values? Of course not. But AF 15 does not need the movies in order to maintain its value and increase. Just look at the last two that were released, which ranged from sub par to crappy. Didn't hurt the books one bit. Unlike SC 22 which collapsed in value after the Green Lantern movie came out and was horrible. The movie is the ONLY thing stoking speculator interest in TMNT 1 right now, and the small print run can actually work against it because of that since it will only take one low sale to bring down the house of cards. -J.