Jaydogrules

I was thinking Pep #22 as well but only in that most people know who Archie is.

 

In terms of awareness of the actual book, ummmm, Cap 1. That's my guess.

 

See I think your #4 is more as comic book back issue importance than popularity.

 

Wolverine beats Cap all day in terms of general public awareness.

 

Movies helped Cap, but in the 90's Wolverine was leaps and bounds over Cap no?

I feel that SoT is taking a more unbiased view here than some others. Fact of the matter is, four visually virtually indistinguishable turtles on a karate team that were created originally as a parody to Daredevil, in no way, whatsoever compare, or will ever compare, with characters as singular as Spiderman, wolverine, iron man, hulk, wonder woman, green lantern, deadpool, venom, the joker, lex luthor, batman, superman, swamp thing, aqua man, flash, or whomever. TMNT is a niche book guys. As a comic, it is not mainstream. It's small print run by comparison, is plenty to satisfy the small pool of buyers who are looking for one at any give time. And when the speculator contingency moves on to the next hot book, the pool of buyers will shrink back down to its normal foundation, and the current prices we are seeing will drop back down to their historical levels. We have already seen the "explosion" in prices because of this movie that's coming out. And the requisite subsequent price deflation is inevitable. Hence many collectors who do not see this book as a "buy" at these price points. They are artificially high right now.

-J.

....pretty sure this just proves (again) that TMNT 1 currently (and temporarily) is in a speculative bubble being artificially bloated by movie hype.

You've posted so many times in this topic, people might begin to think you know what you're talking about.

 

Let's pretend you do...

 

So please show me where I can find this bloated bubble.

 

This graph shows a small post 2008 dip. Everything dipped in '08. This isn't that big a dip either comparitive to everything else. This indicates it is holding it's value very well.

Small dip? It lost almost half its value and stayed around there until the movie announcement. Come on guys.

-J.

Neither TMNT 1, nor the teenage mutant ninja turtles belong in the same conversation as spiderman or AF 15. They are not as popular, probably never will be, and it doesn't matter that there are "only" 3000 copies, BECAUSE IT IS A NICHE BOOK WITH A SMALL COLLECTOR BASE, SO THE DEMAND FOR IT WILL ALWAYS BE MET. For those of you who keep saying you can buy an AF 15 anytime you want, that's great, I always see TMNT 1's for sale too. Gator's point is that the small collector base increases the odds of greater volatility in the value. And he's right. This book has not experienced a consistent increase in value over the years. And the only thing stoking speculator interest now is the upcoming movie. Once that's over the book will settle back down into its historic pricing patterns. Simply put, the guy who got the AF 15 book in this trade got the better end of the deal, both in the short and long term. All the TMNT 1 sympathizing going on in this thread in the world will not change that fact. But if both parties are happy that's all that matters.

 

-J.

 

Simple $10.95 and a GPA subscription will show you most of the CGC grades especially below CGC 8.0 has absolutely been going up the past 10 years.

 

I am not sure why you don't understand that TMNT #1 is mega book for what ever reason that is.

 

Not many people wouldn't agree that AF 15 is of course the better long-term book to have, but anyone holding onto a TMNT #1 is going to have more money than what they invested into the book years from now.

 

Ten years from now, yes TMNT #1 will be selling at higher levels, especially 9.6 and below. Hulk #181 is a perfect example of what I am referring to which is stable growth in all grades except 9.8.

 

There is a heck of a lot more TMNT fans out there than 3k so unless my math is off then demand out weighs supply I would think.

 

 

 

I'm sorry but this is just simply not true. All you have to do is look at the various auction results on heritage. Sure, you will see a lower grade sale at say $600 for example in 2006, maybe another book in the same grade sold for $1200 in 2012. But the sales prices in the 9.0+ grades have absolutely been flat and have even decreased over a 7 year period or so, with only a recent spike in prices that is due to this movie that is coming out. This data only proves the point. Yes there are more than 3000 turtle fans out there, but the vast, vast majority of them will be buying the action figures and lunch boxes, and the newer comic books to read and enjoy, not eight thousand dollar comic books. At those higher grades you are very obviously having speculator activity rolling the dice on the movie. The turtles aren't even as popular or as influential of a character as wolverine, iron man, or any first tier marvel character, none of those comparisons hold up. I would say to anyone buying a TMNT 1 now there is a far greater likelihood that the book will be worth less than it is now, in that 5-10 year window or perhaps the same, in a best case scenario. Meanwhile it would literally take an industry wide slump for me to say the same about an AF 15. In other words, TMNT 1 could decline in value and very few in the hobby would notice or care or even question why. It would simply be chalked up to the little mini speculative bubble it has been in the last several months bursting. TMNT 1 is certainly not the "must have" destination book to many collectors. But an across the board and sudden devaluation in AF 15's would create an industry wide panic and have a massive ripple effect. Macro vs micro.

 

-J.

 

So you are using Heritage instead of GPA?

 

Ok then by that logic I lost money then on my AF 15 4.0 cause the last sale was well under 8k just yesterday right?

 

STOP comparing the books we established that logic days ago.

 

My disagreement with you is your logic on the long-term value of TMNT #1

 

Let me take you back to economic class then.......

 

Go to GPA and tell me what trend you see for this book in 7.5, 7.0 and 6.0 inthe past 10 years.

 

See the upward "blue chip" trend?......yes very good student.

 

BTW AF 15's prices just like Oil prices ($4.00 soon my middle class friends) are just as manipulated as everything else in the business market.

 

Probably not the best example to use if you're trying to disprove this book is in a speculative bubble.

 

Take 6.0 - from 2004 to 2012 it sold for between $358 and $750. Last sale was $1,950

 

Actually no you are helping my point.

 

Thank you for posting a little GPA info.

 

When a 6.0 sells for less than 1k send me a PM k?

Right. Temporary movie hype bump. See my post above.

-J.

....pretty sure this just proves (again) that TMNT 1 currently (and temporarily) is in a speculative bubble being artificially bloated by movie hype.

You've posted so many times in this topic, people might begin to think you know what you're talking about.

 

Let's pretend you do...

 

So please show me where I can find this bloated bubble.

Um....you did actually look at and properly interpret the graph you just posted right? Because what I see is a consistent decline from 2008-2012 with a spike in 2013 correlating with the movie announcement. In other words, exactly what I (and the dealers on this board) have been trying to explain to you. Gator is a dealer who SPECIALIZES in AF 15s, he knows what they're worth and if he has publicly said he pays 10k for well presenting AF 15 4.0's and flips them for $11k, then that should tell you all you need to know about the value of nice ones in that grade.

Like I said, you've made the trade what's done is done there's no reason to look back and second guess and seek validation with a poll like this if you really are happy with it. Guys over pay all the time and leave money on the table all the time in a trade to get a book they really want. But if you're going to run a poll like the one you did, and with a book like AF 15 involved, you shouldn't be surprised if the vast, vast majority of the responses run counter to what you ultimately decided to do.

-J.

Just FYI for the discussion, today's GPA numbers:

 

Most recent sale of CGC 4.0 AF 15 was $7,887.

Most recent sale of CGC 9.6 TMNT 1 was $8,100.

 

Carry on.

 

Most recent sale is the most unreliable way to judge value of two comics. If this trade had happened October 13th of last year the numbers would have been:

Most recent sale of CGC 4.0 AF 15 was $11,500.

Most recent sale of CGC 9.6 TMNT 1 was $6,600.

....pretty sure this just proves (again) that TMNT 1 currently (and temporarily) is in a speculative bubble being artificially bloated by movie hype.

-J.

That TMNT have such staying power with the kids puts TMNT 1 on the map as a must have book over and above Turtle collectors. Art to believe that they have been going strong for 30 years and are as beloved by kids as ever.

 

I also agree that a clean but creased white page AF 15 is a lot more attractive than a chipped Cr to OW one or a 4.0 with a "small piece of tape" etc. So the book matters. Same with the TMNT 1 - if it even had one spine line or corner fleck, I'd pass on it as a soft 9.6

 

Ed

You are entitled to your opinion, but I think you are conveniently ignoring the informed statements of several of the dealers who have been posting on here. As for "true collectors" wanting the book, yeah I don't know about that either. I think it's more like a book most collectors in fact pass on, unless they do have some sort of nostalgic connection to the turtles. I honestly do not personally know of any collector that has that book on their must have list. Though I do know of many speculators who want it "now" so they can flip it and move on to the next hot property. However we are already seeing some price resistance in the upper grades, and I think the mere fact that a guy was willing to trade a nice looking AF 15 for one is more evidence that we are nearing the end of this little TMNT 1 cycle.

-J.

Neither TMNT 1, nor the teenage mutant ninja turtles belong in the same conversation as spiderman or AF 15. They are not as popular, probably never will be, and it doesn't matter that there are "only" 3000 copies, BECAUSE IT IS A NICHE BOOK WITH A SMALL COLLECTOR BASE, SO THE DEMAND FOR IT WILL ALWAYS BE MET. For those of you who keep saying you can buy an AF 15 anytime you want, that's great, I always see TMNT 1's for sale too. Gator's point is that the small collector base increases the odds of greater volatility in the value. And he's right. This book has not experienced a consistent increase in value over the years. And the only thing stoking speculator interest now is the upcoming movie. Once that's over the book will settle back down into its historic pricing patterns. Simply put, the guy who got the AF 15 book in this trade got the better end of the deal, both in the short and long term. All the TMNT 1 sympathizing going on in this thread in the world will not change that fact. But if both parties are happy that's all that matters.

 

-J.

 

Simple $10.95 and a GPA subscription will show you most of the CGC grades especially below CGC 8.0 has absolutely been going up the past 10 years.

 

I am not sure why you don't understand that TMNT #1 is mega book for what ever reason that is.

 

Not many people wouldn't agree that AF 15 is of course the better long-term book to have, but anyone holding onto a TMNT #1 is going to have more money than what they invested into the book years from now.

 

Ten years from now, yes TMNT #1 will be selling at higher levels, especially 9.6 and below. Hulk #181 is a perfect example of what I am referring to which is stable growth in all grades except 9.8.

 

There is a heck of a lot more TMNT fans out there than 3k so unless my math is off then demand out weighs supply I would think.

 

 

I'm sorry but this is just simply not true. All you have to do is look at the various auction results on heritage. Sure, you will see a lower grade sale at say $600 for example in 2006, maybe another book in the same grade sold for $1200 in 2012. But the sales prices in the 9.0+ grades have absolutely been flat and have even decreased over a 7 year period or so, with only a recent spike in prices that is due to this movie that is coming out. This data only proves the point. Yes there are more than 3000 turtle fans out there, but the vast, vast majority of them will be buying the action figures and lunch boxes, and the newer comic books to read and enjoy, not eight thousand dollar comic books. At those higher grades you are very obviously having speculator activity rolling the dice on the movie. The turtles aren't even as popular or as influential of a character as wolverine, iron man, or any first tier marvel character, none of those comparisons hold up. I would say to anyone buying a TMNT 1 now there is a far greater likelihood that the book will be worth less than it is now, in that 5-10 year window or perhaps the same, in a best case scenario. Meanwhile it would literally take an industry wide slump for me to say the same about an AF 15. In other words, TMNT 1 could decline in value and very few in the hobby would notice or care or even question why. It would simply be chalked up to the little mini speculative bubble it has been in the last several months bursting. TMNT 1 is certainly not the "must have" destination book to many collectors. But an across the board and sudden devaluation in AF 15's would create an industry wide panic and have a massive ripple effect. Macro vs micro.

-J.

Neither TMNT 1, nor the teenage mutant ninja turtles belong in the same conversation as spiderman or AF 15. They are not as popular, probably never will be, and it doesn't matter that there are "only" 3000 copies, BECAUSE IT IS A NICHE BOOK WITH A SMALL COLLECTOR BASE, SO THE DEMAND FOR IT WILL ALWAYS BE MET. For those of you who keep saying you can buy an AF 15 anytime you want, that's great, I always see TMNT 1's for sale too. Gator's point is that the small collector base increases the odds of greater volatility in the value. And he's right. This book has not experienced a consistent increase in value over the years. And the only thing stoking speculator interest now is the upcoming movie. Once that's over the book will settle back down into its historic pricing patterns. Simply put, the guy who got the AF 15 book in this trade got the better end of the deal, both in the short and long term. All the TMNT 1 sympathizing going on in this thread in the world will not change that fact. But if both parties are happy that's all that matters.

-J.

How about this guy. A new GPA high by far. Wow.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rt=nc&item=321331455705&si=%2BwopUWxqnjgIthDOHBUwxj2VTtw%3D&print=all&category=17085

-J.

I'm shocked by how all these ebay accounts were hijacked. I think ebay should add some security feature such as a personal question you can answer when opening or updating your account.

Agreed. Or at the very least force someone to do so if they list a high dollar item that has a high incident of fraudulent listings. Fortunately GPA is usually diligent in screening out this c*r*a*p. If only ebay were as well.....

-J.

I know many people will disagree but within the next 5-10 years I can see low to mid grade TMNT 1 copies reaching the kind of m oney low to mid grade AF 15 copies are selling for today. I cant see AF 15 going too much higher in price then it is now in 5-10 years.

 

 

5-10 years from now this will still apply to your post.

 

+1.

-J.

Evidently there is some scammer making it a point to rip off people with all of these obviously bogus waaaay below market value buy it now AF 15 listings. There's been a rash of them recently. Pretty sure it's all the same hacker.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Amazing-Fantasy-AF-15-CGC-5-5-Unrestored-Blue-/271413949636?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item3f318834c4

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Amazing-Fantasy-15-CGC-4-0-Marvel-Golden-Age-Comic-1st-Spider-Man-/331139370601?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item4d1971ce69

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Amazing-Fantasy-15-CGC-6-0-Marvel-Silver-Age-comic-Origin-1st-app-of-Spider-Man-/281271119855?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item417d10afef

-J.

I traded my CGC 4.0 AF15 for CGC 9.6 TMNT 1.

 

If you have checked my recent posts, you'll know that Spiderman-on-Tilt was the other party involved.

 

He now has the CGC 4.0 AF15. IT IS NOT FOR SALE.

For those of you attempting to obtain the book from him... kindly stop it.

His name is Spiderman-on-Tilt, and I promise you, he doesn't want to sell his AF15.

(He told me he's getting offers due to my post, and he wished I hadn't posted this topic and poll, so I'm partially responsible for annoying him and I'm trying to fix it.)

 

I had two copies of AF15. The other is a CGC 2.0, but it was the first I ever bought, so I'm happy to keep it.

 

Now, I also have CGC 9.6 TMNT 1.

 

Why would I do this trade, which is so obviously lopsided against me?

 

Well, first reason, because I had two copies of AF15 and none of TMNT 1.

 

Second reason, because I bought the CGC 4.0 AF15 in 2009 for a normal 2009 GPA price of $5,200.

 

In 2009, there was not a single sale of CGC 9.6 TMNT 1.

None in 2008.

The last CGC 9.6 sale in 2007 was for $9,668.

 

What I could afford for AF15 for $5,200 in 2009 was barely half of a CGC 9.6 TMNT 1.

Now I have the whole thing.

 

Next point...

 

A CGC 6.0 of TMNT 1 recently sold for $1,950.

 

Name another key issue that sells for $1,950 in CGC 6.0 which can be purchased in CGC 9.6 for under $10,000.

 

Go ahead.

 

Try.

 

Avengers 4 CGC 6.0 sells for $1,000... the 9.6 costs $20,000. 20 times higher.

Batman 181 CGC 6.0 sells for $300... the 9.6 costs $4,200. 14 times higher.

Batman 227 CGC 6.0 sells for $160... the 9.6 costs $2,000. 12 times higher.

Fantastic Four 48 CGC 6.0 sells for $370... the 9.6 costs $3,700... 10 times higher.

Hulk 181 CGC 6.0 sells for $700... the 9.6 costs $4,000. 6 times higher... and there are 217 of them, with 75 copies higher than 9.6.

 

Amazing Fantasy CGC 6.0 sells for $18,000... the 9.6 costs a million dollars... 55 times higher.

That's a special case, of course, but the CGC 9.0 AF15 costs $190,000... that's 10 times the 6.0.

 

Let's face it... key books in 9.6 cost at least 10 times more than their 6.0 values... unless there are PLENTY available (Hulk 181).

Even with Hulk 181, you're talking about 6 times the 6.0 value.

 

TMNT CGC 6.0 sells for $1,950... the 9.6 costs under $8,000. 4 times higher.

At 6 times higher, it's a $12,000 book.

At 10 times higher, it's a $20,000 book.

 

ON THE OTHER HAND...

 

What determines the price of CGC 4.0 AF #15? Well, the 4.5... minus a little.

What determines the price of CGC 4.5 AF #15? The 5.0... minus a little.

5.5, 6.0, 6.5, 7.0, etc., etc.,

 

The value of Amazing Fantasy #15 CGC 4.0 is capped by 13 higher grades... each capping the one just below it.

 

The value of TMNT #1 CGC 9.6 is capped by one higher grade.

 

I'm in the minority in my vote... but let's face it...

there's a very good chance I win this... soon.

 

I just traded a $5,200 investment... which has almost doubled... for a book that is valued about half of what it should be.

 

Bargain.

 

If not... I still have my other AF #15.

 

I can't lose.

 

 

This is a well-reasoned argument and well thought-out post. I can easily see why you made the trade you did, and kudos for that. But if SOT is annoyed with you for starting this thread and poll, and you're trying to fix that (to loosely quote you from up top) I'm sort of failing to see that in your post here. Maybe it is me.

 

Very well reasoned and sound

 

No doubt you did the right thing for your collection. You're happy and that's all that counts (thumbs u

 

That said, I can't see the turtles ever coming even close in popularity to Spider-Man, movie or not. (Wasn't there already a movie, btw )

 

Given the grade differential in this case, the two books will likely stay in the general neighborhood of each other.

I don't know about that. AF 15s in the lower grades are the ones going up in value the most right now as most copies in a 5 and up have simply become too expensive. Even the copy he traded has doubled in the last few years. The prices of TMNT 1 were mostly flat until this latest movie news stoked a little speculator interest. If it turns out to be a stinker, there goes that. And there may be fewer TMNT 1's out there, but there are also far fewer people who want one or demand one in their collection. I grew up in the 80s and remember the first set of movies when they first came out. And when I sold a property and wanted to treat myself to pretty much any book I wanted last year (within reason of course), the first book that came to mind was AF 15. When it was delivered guys wanted to come over just to see one and hold it in their hands. They were literally congratulating me and patting me on the back as if i just had my first kid . There would not have been anywhere near a reaction like that to a TMNT 1, and the reason is obvious. In fact, when I was in the market for a TMNT 1 and told my buddy about it he just chuckled and rolled his eyes. He grew up in the 90s, and even he wondered aloud...."are those things still even worth anything"?

Those deep in the hobby obviously know the answer to that. But it's as I said before, movie or not, toys or not, TMNT 1 is still a niche book and it's value as a collectible is not readily apparent to the mainstream. But I could show my AF 15 to almost anyone on the planet and they would almost certainly know what they are looking at, and even though they may not know they actual FMV of it, they will instinctively know that it is something that is valuable.

-J.

if SOT is annoyed with you for starting this thread and poll, and you're trying to fix that (to loosely quote you from up top) I'm sort of failing to see that in your post here. Maybe it is me.

He's more private with his collection and business deals than I am.

My post allowed people to know about his trade because I was talking about my trade.

I was asking people to leave him alone because I'm the reason they started contacting him.

 

He's happy with the trade and with his book... and the majority agree with him.

Nothing I am saying will make it a bad deal for him.

 

My post was explaining why I'm also happy with the trade, and what I was thinking...

seeing the results of the poll that most voters would not have done what I did.

I'm no psychologist but it seems you are seeking validation for your decision to make the trade. I say, don't worry about it. If u got a book you wanted, be happy with it. Always look forward.

-J.

I didn't ignore the grades, and no, there is no comparison.

-J.

 

The Copper Age is one of the, if not the most reviled age in comics. Yes, I stand by that. And I don't feel too "special" about it, since I know that is the general consensus of the hobby at large as well.

 

-J.

 

I think copper (assuming you use the 1991 end date) is far less reviled than the 90s... Just look online at the retrospectives... the 90s are held up as largely ridiculous times...Rob Liefeld, foil stamped, multi-variant, hologram covers, birdcage fodder (thanks to ridiculous over production) that came out with very little substance behind the splash.

 

The post-copper era included a Marvel bankruptcy, a loss of all of the early Batman momentum in the movies (Batman & Robin anyone?), and almost no meaningful product development into the mainstream. Marvel relaunching the whole line with Heroes Reborn, and it being horrible. The 90s gave us Clone saga, some other guy being Batman, Electric Superman, many horrible events (Zero Hour?), Carnage showing up all over the place... The lone good thing from the post-copper 90s was the development of creator rights thanks to Image Comics and other "creator owned" publishing ventures like Vertigo. That is the good that came out of the 90s.

 

But I'll take the 80s copper every time.

 

There are a few good moments in 90s comics (LoEG was good, Marvels & Kingdom Come were good [though they relied heavily on Golden Age], the birth of Image (as I mentioned) and Vertigo, along with creator owned Hellboy and Sin City), but I'll take Crisis on Infinite Earths, Watchmen, Dark Knight Returns, Miller's Daredevil, Alan Moore on Swampthing, Byrne's FF, Claremont's 80s X-men (future past, Phoenix..) and on and on... Most reviled? Doubtful.

 

Again, you can cherry pick two dozen decent story lines from the CA, without changing the overall reality of things. You can even thrown in the sandman run while you're at it. But from a VALUE perspective it is the weakest designated age, by far. Very few investment opportunities there, and as cool as some of those stories you mentioned are, none of those books are particularly valuable. And I might add, there's a chorus out there that doesn't think some of those stories you mention have held up very well with time. I'm looking at you watchmen and dark knight returns. But like I said, to each his own.

 

-J.

 

This is what I hear when I read your posts:

 

"If you collect BA, you are a insufficiently_thoughtful_person."

 

"But feel okay about being a insufficiently_thoughtful_person."

 

I definitely don't agree, but (thumbs u

that's not what I'm saying at all. I have collected my fair share of copper as well. I'll never be able to travel the world by selling any of it, but I collect what I like. Let's not forget the original poll....comparing AF 15 to TMNT 1 from a value standpoint, cultural significance standpoint, impact on the genre standpoint. Eh.....There is no comparison. Hence I voted as I did. I understand two guys made that trade and if they are both happy, that's all that needs to be said. All I know is that almost every comic book collector I know wants an AF 15 in their collection. Can't come remotely close to saying that about TMNT 1.

-J.

 

The Copper Age is one of the, if not the most reviled age in comics. Yes, I stand by that. And I don't feel too "special" about it, since I know that is the general consensus of the hobby at large as well.

 

-J.

 

I think copper (assuming you use the 1991 end date) is far less reviled than the 90s... Just look online at the retrospectives... the 90s are held up as largely ridiculous times...Rob Liefeld, foil stamped, multi-variant, hologram covers, birdcage fodder (thanks to ridiculous over production) that came out with very little substance behind the splash.

 

The post-copper era included a Marvel bankruptcy, a loss of all of the early Batman momentum in the movies (Batman & Robin anyone?), and almost no meaningful product development into the mainstream. Marvel relaunching the whole line with Heroes Reborn, and it being horrible. The 90s gave us Clone saga, some other guy being Batman, Electric Superman, many horrible events (Zero Hour?), Carnage showing up all over the place... The lone good thing from the post-copper 90s was the development of creator rights thanks to Image Comics and other "creator owned" publishing ventures like Vertigo. That is the good that came out of the 90s.

 

But I'll take the 80s copper every time.

 

There are a few good moments in 90s comics (LoEG was good, Marvels & Kingdom Come were good [though they relied heavily on Golden Age], the birth of Image (as I mentioned) and Vertigo, along with creator owned Hellboy and Sin City), but I'll take Crisis on Infinite Earths, Watchmen, Dark Knight Returns, Miller's Daredevil, Alan Moore on Swampthing, Byrne's FF, Claremont's 80s X-men (future past, Phoenix..) and on and on... Most reviled? Doubtful.

Again, you can cherry pick two dozen decent story lines from the CA, without changing the overall reality of things. You can even thrown in the sandman run while you're at it. But from a VALUE perspective it is the weakest designated age, by far. Very few investment opportunities there, and as cool as some of those stories you mentioned are, none of those books are particularly valuable. And I might add, there's a chorus out there that doesn't think some of those stories you mention have held up very well with time. I'm looking at you watchmen and dark knight returns. But like I said, to each his own.

-J.

I traded my CGC 4.0 AF15 for CGC 9.6 TMNT 1.

 

If you have checked my recent posts, you'll know that Spiderman-on-Tilt was the other party involved.

 

He now has the CGC 4.0 AF15. IT IS NOT FOR SALE.

For those of you attempting to obtain the book from him... kindly stop it.

His name is Spiderman-on-Tilt, and I promise you, he doesn't want to sell his AF15.

(He told me he's getting offers due to my post, and he wished I hadn't posted this topic and poll, so I'm partially responsible for annoying him and I'm trying to fix it.)

 

I had two copies of AF15. The other is a CGC 2.0, but it was the first I ever bought, so I'm happy to keep it.

 

Now, I also have CGC 9.6 TMNT 1.

 

Why would I do this trade, which is so obviously lopsided against me?

 

Well, first reason, because I had two copies of AF15 and none of TMNT 1.

 

Second reason, because I bought the CGC 4.0 AF15 in 2009 for a normal 2009 GPA price of $5,200.

 

In 2009, there was not a single sale of CGC 9.6 TMNT 1.

None in 2008.

The last CGC 9.6 sale in 2007 was for $9,668.

 

What I could afford for AF15 for $5,200 in 2009 was barely half of a CGC 9.6 TMNT 1.

Now I have the whole thing.

 

Next point...

 

A CGC 6.0 of TMNT 1 recently sold for $1,950.

 

Name another key issue that sells for $1,950 in CGC 6.0 which can be purchased in CGC 9.6 for under $10,000.

 

Go ahead.

 

Try.

 

Avengers 4 CGC 6.0 sells for $1,000... the 9.6 costs $20,000. 20 times higher.

Batman 181 CGC 6.0 sells for $300... the 9.6 costs $4,200. 14 times higher.

Batman 227 CGC 6.0 sells for $160... the 9.6 costs $2,000. 12 times higher.

Fantastic Four 48 CGC 6.0 sells for $370... the 9.6 costs $3,700... 10 times higher.

Hulk 181 CGC 6.0 sells for $700... the 9.6 costs $4,000. 6 times higher... and there are 217 of them, with 75 copies higher than 9.6.

 

Amazing Fantasy CGC 6.0 sells for $18,000... the 9.6 costs a million dollars... 55 times higher.

That's a special case, of course, but the CGC 9.0 AF15 costs $190,000... that's 10 times the 6.0.

 

Let's face it... key books in 9.6 cost at least 10 times more than their 6.0 values... unless there are PLENTY available (Hulk 181).

Even with Hulk 181, you're talking about 6 times the 6.0 value.

 

TMNT CGC 6.0 sells for $1,950... the 9.6 costs under $8,000. 4 times higher.

At 6 times higher, it's a $12,000 book.

At 10 times higher, it's a $20,000 book.

 

ON THE OTHER HAND...

 

What determines the price of CGC 4.0 AF #15? Well, the 4.5... minus a little.

What determines the price of CGC 4.5 AF #15? The 5.0... minus a little.

5.5, 6.0, 6.5, 7.0, etc., etc.,

 

The value of Amazing Fantasy #15 CGC 4.0 is capped by 13 higher grades... each capping the one just below it.

 

The value of TMNT #1 CGC 9.6 is capped by one higher grade.

 

I'm in the minority in my vote... but let's face it...

there's a very good chance I win this... soon.

 

I just traded a $5,200 investment... which has almost doubled... for a book that is valued about half of what it should be.

 

Bargain.

 

If not... I still have my other AF #15.

 

I can't lose.

 

If the parties involved are both happy with the trade, that is all that matters.

-J.

#3 book in the hobby vs. #1 Copper Book in HG.

 

No contest, the AF15.

 

+1

 

These two books shouldn't even be mentioned in the same breath.

 

On the one hand, you have a timeless, iconic character that's in the same league as Batman and Superman in terms of pop cultural awareness, and impact on the entire hobby, in a million dollar book in a comparable grade (9.6), regardless of how many "under copies" of it exist on the census.

 

And on the other, you have a fad book that has been over valued for a very long time, featuring novelty characters from the '80s that should have gone out along with Garbage Pail Kids. But hey, if you like your Turtles, more power to you.

 

No contest there at all.

 

AF 15 all the way baby. (thumbs u

 

-J.

 

 

In the 80's Spider-man was a fad.

 

TMNT #1 is the AF 15 of the Copper-Age.

 

It ain't going down anytime soon.

 

 

"Copper Age"..... the most reviled age of comic books. What's your point?

 

-J.

 

That is what Golden Age generation said about the Silver age generation of books.

 

My point is don't be such a tool bag.

 

I'm a copper age Gen X'er and I can be unbiased and say how bad that age of book is, and be objective about it without being a tool bag. If the Turtles is the best of the CA, then all that does is tell you how horrible it really is.

 

-J.

 

To say TMNT #1 is a fad book is uneducated thing to say.

 

I think a lot of what people buy I wouldn't, but the comic book hobby is big enough to convey different tastes in collecting.

 

Yes I prefer the SA and BA, but that doesn't mean the Copper-Age was vile dude.

 

Some of the most important characters and story-lines came out of the copper age.

 

Some of the worst, cheapest, most mass produced dreck also came out of CA. That's why it is almost universally loathed. Spiderman came out of and ultimately came to lead the pack of all the characters created in the Marvel Comics SA Renaissance, redefined what the "super hero" was, and the entire genre, and is the number 3 character ever created. Yeah, "Ninja Turtles" are fun and all, and the book started with a low print run, but it's a niche comic, regardless of how many movies and toys spin off it. If it had a typical CA print run, I severely doubt the book would sell for what it does now. Not even close. It would likely be more in the NM 98, MAYBE ASM 300 range.

 

-J.

 

If WW II didnt happen or moms throwing out millions of comic books we wouldn't have any value to vintage comic books.

 

So what is your point?

 

You do realize most people think spending a $100 bucks on a comic is insane right?

 

I think Superman is the biggest loser superhero of all time, but I understand why AC #1 is the king of kings.

 

Great you don't like TMNT, ok fine, but to call it a fad or not understanding why the book sells for so much or the CA is DREK is just a convo I don't have the patience for anymore.

 

We are probably the same age as well.

 

Who said I didn't like TMNT? Who said I didn't own one ? I am simply saying that AF 15, and TMNT 1 are not remotely in the same league, even if all things are considered. And if I have 10k to spend on a book, it would be an AF 15, 100 times out of a 100. Again, that was the poll question, right?

 

-J.

 

That is what you should have wrote pages ago then I wouldn't have cared.

 

You said TMNT #1 was a fad which is why I am telling you that was an uneducated thing to say.

I like to stir the pot a little when I express an opinion sometimes. Keeps the boards a bit more lively and interesting. I love to see the passion of other collectors, and to express my passion as well. It's all in good fun. (thumbs u

-J.

#3 book in the hobby vs. #1 Copper Book in HG.

 

No contest, the AF15.

 

+1

 

These two books shouldn't even be mentioned in the same breath.

 

On the one hand, you have a timeless, iconic character that's in the same league as Batman and Superman in terms of pop cultural awareness, and impact on the entire hobby, in a million dollar book in a comparable grade (9.6), regardless of how many "under copies" of it exist on the census.

 

And on the other, you have a fad book that has been over valued for a very long time, featuring novelty characters from the '80s that should have gone out along with Garbage Pail Kids. But hey, if you like your Turtles, more power to you.

 

No contest there at all.

 

AF 15 all the way baby. (thumbs u

 

-J.

 

 

In the 80's Spider-man was a fad.

 

TMNT #1 is the AF 15 of the Copper-Age.

 

It ain't going down anytime soon.

 

 

"Copper Age"..... the most reviled age of comic books. What's your point?

 

-J.

 

That is what Golden Age generation said about the Silver age generation of books.

 

My point is don't be such a tool bag.

 

I'm a copper age Gen X'er and I can be unbiased and say how bad that age of book is, and be objective about it without being a tool bag. If the Turtles is the best of the CA, then all that does is tell you how horrible it really is.

 

-J.

 

To say TMNT #1 is a fad book is uneducated thing to say.

 

I think a lot of what people buy I wouldn't, but the comic book hobby is big enough to convey different tastes in collecting.

 

Yes I prefer the SA and BA, but that doesn't mean the Copper-Age was vile dude.

 

Some of the most important characters and story-lines came out of the copper age.

 

Some of the worst, cheapest, most mass produced dreck also came out of CA. That's why it is almost universally loathed. Spiderman came out of and ultimately came to lead the pack of all the characters created in the Marvel Comics SA Renaissance, redefined what the "super hero" was, and the entire genre, and is the number 3 character ever created. Yeah, "Ninja Turtles" are fun and all, and the book started with a low print run, but it's a niche comic, regardless of how many movies and toys spin off it. If it had a typical CA print run, I severely doubt the book would sell for what it does now. Not even close. It would likely be more in the NM 98, MAYBE ASM 300 range.

 

-J.

 

If WW II didnt happen or moms throwing out millions of comic books we wouldn't have any value to vintage comic books.

 

So what is your point?

 

You do realize most people think spending a $100 bucks on a comic is insane right?

 

I think Superman is the biggest loser superhero of all time, but I understand why AC #1 is the king of kings.

 

Great you don't like TMNT, ok fine, but to call it a fad or not understanding why the book sells for so much or the CA is DREK is just a convo I don't have the patience for anymore.

 

We are probably the same age as well.

Who said I didn't like TMNT? Who said I didn't own one ? I am simply saying that AF 15, and TMNT 1 are not remotely in the same league, even if all things are considered. And if I have 10k to spend on a book, it would be an AF 15, 100 times out of a 100. Again, that was the poll question, right?

-J.

#3 book in the hobby vs. #1 Copper Book in HG.

 

No contest, the AF15.

 

+1

 

These two books shouldn't even be mentioned in the same breath.

 

On the one hand, you have a timeless, iconic character that's in the same league as Batman and Superman in terms of pop cultural awareness, and impact on the entire hobby, in a million dollar book in a comparable grade (9.6), regardless of how many "under copies" of it exist on the census.

 

And on the other, you have a fad book that has been over valued for a very long time, featuring novelty characters from the '80s that should have gone out along with Garbage Pail Kids. But hey, if you like your Turtles, more power to you.

 

No contest there at all.

 

AF 15 all the way baby. (thumbs u

 

-J.

 

 

In the 80's Spider-man was a fad.

 

TMNT #1 is the AF 15 of the Copper-Age.

 

It ain't going down anytime soon.

 

 

"Copper Age"..... the most reviled age of comic books. What's your point?

 

-J.

 

That is what Golden Age generation said about the Silver age generation of books.

 

My point is don't be such a tool bag.

 

I'm a copper age Gen X'er and I can be unbiased and say how bad that age of book is, and be objective about it without being a tool bag. If the Turtles is the best of the CA, then all that does is tell you how horrible the CA really is.

 

-J.

 

Man, you are so right. When I think great comics, I don't think about Watchmen, Dark Knight, Jon Sable, Kraven's Last Hunt, Swamp Thing, V for Vendetta, Nexus, Born Again, Killing Joke, or Giffen and Dematteis JLA, I think about Hulk juggling elephants in the circus, Lois Lane falling in love with a sexy alien when purple kryptonite turns Superman super-obese, and Batman and Robin riding a space seesaw to Planet Awkward.

 

....a few great stories, to be sure. But none of those books are really worth much, are they? This poll originally started off as a "value" question. remember?

 

-J.

 

But what about the most reviled age in history? Are backing off that? Because you should. It is making you look a little special.

The Copper Age is one of the, if not the most reviled age in comics. Yes, I stand by that. And I don't feel too "special" about it, since I know that is the general consensus of the hobby at large as well.

-J.

#3 book in the hobby vs. #1 Copper Book in HG.

 

No contest, the AF15.

 

+1

 

These two books shouldn't even be mentioned in the same breath.

 

On the one hand, you have a timeless, iconic character that's in the same league as Batman and Superman in terms of pop cultural awareness, and impact on the entire hobby, in a million dollar book in a comparable grade (9.6), regardless of how many "under copies" of it exist on the census.

 

And on the other, you have a fad book that has been over valued for a very long time, featuring novelty characters from the '80s that should have gone out along with Garbage Pail Kids. But hey, if you like your Turtles, more power to you.

 

No contest there at all.

 

AF 15 all the way baby. (thumbs u

 

-J.

 

 

In the 80's Spider-man was a fad.

 

TMNT #1 is the AF 15 of the Copper-Age.

 

It ain't going down anytime soon.

 

 

"Copper Age"..... the most reviled age of comic books. What's your point?

 

-J.

 

That is what Golden Age generation said about the Silver age generation of books.

 

My point is don't be such a tool bag.

 

I'm a copper age Gen X'er and I can be unbiased and say how bad that age of book is, and be objective about it without being a tool bag. If the Turtles is the best of the CA, then all that does is tell you how horrible the CA really is.

 

-J.

 

Man, you are so right. When I think great comics, I don't think about Watchmen, Dark Knight, Jon Sable, Kraven's Last Hunt, Swamp Thing, V for Vendetta, Nexus, Born Again, Killing Joke, or Giffen and Dematteis JLA, I think about Hulk juggling elephants in the circus, Lois Lane falling in love with a sexy alien when purple kryptonite turns Superman super-obese, and Batman and Robin riding a space seesaw to Planet Awkward.

....a few great stories, to be sure. But none of those books are really worth much, are they? This poll originally started off as a "value" question. remember?

-J.

#3 book in the hobby vs. #1 Copper Book in HG.

 

No contest, the AF15.

 

+1

 

These two books shouldn't even be mentioned in the same breath.

 

On the one hand, you have a timeless, iconic character that's in the same league as Batman and Superman in terms of pop cultural awareness, and impact on the entire hobby, in a million dollar book in a comparable grade (9.6), regardless of how many "under copies" of it exist on the census.

 

And on the other, you have a fad book that has been over valued for a very long time, featuring novelty characters from the '80s that should have gone out along with Garbage Pail Kids. But hey, if you like your Turtles, more power to you.

 

No contest there at all.

 

AF 15 all the way baby. (thumbs u

 

-J.

 

 

In the 80's Spider-man was a fad.

 

TMNT #1 is the AF 15 of the Copper-Age.

 

It ain't going down anytime soon.

 

 

"Copper Age"..... the most reviled age of comic books. What's your point?

 

-J.

 

That is what Golden Age generation said about the Silver age generation of books.

 

My point is don't be such a tool bag.

 

I'm a copper age Gen X'er and I can be unbiased and say how bad that age of book is, and be objective about it without being a tool bag. If the Turtles is the best of the CA, then all that does is tell you how horrible it really is.

 

-J.

 

To say TMNT #1 is a fad book is uneducated thing to say.

 

I think a lot of what people buy I wouldn't, but the comic book hobby is big enough to convey different tastes in collecting.

 

Yes I prefer the SA and BA, but that doesn't mean the Copper-Age was vile dude.

 

Some of the most important characters and story-lines came out of the copper age.

Some of the worst, cheapest, most mass produced dreck also came out of CA. That's why it is almost universally loathed. Spiderman came out of and ultimately came to lead the pack of all the characters created in the Marvel Comics SA Renaissance, redefined what the "super hero" was, and the entire genre, and is the number 3 character ever created. Yeah, "Ninja Turtles" are fun and all, and the book started with a low print run, but it's a niche comic, regardless of how many movies and toys spin off it. If it had a typical CA print run, I severely doubt the book would sell for what it does now. Not even close. It would likely be more in the NM 98, MAYBE ASM 300 range.

-J.

In the 80's Spider-man was a fad.

 

TMNT #1 is the AF 15 of the Copper-Age.

 

It ain't going down anytime soon.

 

I agree with the fact Turtles will not go down in value. In fact the relative scarcity will ensure it either maintains it's current valuation or continues to climb. It is all about supply and demand.

 

The spider-man comics and cartoons helped propel web head into popular culture well before the Turtles started becoming part of popular culture. Although I do agree that Spider-man has the largest appeal among popular culture, the Turtles have been making headway for decades.

 

I had an AF #15 and sold it back in 2005. Although it stings selling AF #15 it was worth it as the money was used to put a down payment on my house. Guess which book I held onto during this down payment purge as I knew it would be more difficult to buy down the road? You guessed it; the TMNT #1 is the book I decided to hold onto over the AF #15.

 

I will in time find another AF #15, but the Turtles book I will not need to worry about locating anytime soon. Eventually demand will outstrip supply and when TMNT #1 is hoarded in private collections good luck finding a copy in years time.

In that time your AF 15 would have tripled in value. The Turtles book might have gone up 50%. Values on it have actually dropped on it in that time a bit here and there. Just sayin...

-J.

#3 book in the hobby vs. #1 Copper Book in HG.

 

No contest, the AF15.

 

+1

 

These two books shouldn't even be mentioned in the same breath.

 

On the one hand, you have a timeless, iconic character that's in the same league as Batman and Superman in terms of pop cultural awareness, and impact on the entire hobby, in a million dollar book in a comparable grade (9.6), regardless of how many "under copies" of it exist on the census.

 

And on the other, you have a fad book that has been over valued for a very long time, featuring novelty characters from the '80s that should have gone out along with Garbage Pail Kids. But hey, if you like your Turtles, more power to you.

 

No contest there at all.

 

AF 15 all the way baby. (thumbs u

 

-J.

 

 

In the 80's Spider-man was a fad.

 

TMNT #1 is the AF 15 of the Copper-Age.

 

It ain't going down anytime soon.

 

 

"Copper Age"..... the most reviled age of comic books. What's your point?

 

-J.

 

That is what Golden Age generation said about the Silver age generation of books.

 

My point is don't be such a tool bag.

I'm a copper age Gen X'er and I can be unbiased and say how bad that age of book is, and be objective about it without being a tool bag. If the Turtles is the best of the CA, then all that does is tell you how horrible the CA really is.

-J.