VintageComics

I think nuanced discussion is a beautiful thing. I've always loved it, which is why I used to prefer to write longform handwritten letters than emails. Discussions take time, and there are times when I won't even reply quickly because I want to digest the points. Sometimes I even CHANGE MY MIND after waiting a while and my reply is totally different. I may be a bit more nostalgic than most, but I do believe that by losing the little nuances in things we lose what really made them beautiful in the first place and they get replaced by caricatures that are just a semblance of what they once were. Most of this discussion was a beautiful thing because I think everyone learned a lot about the history of our hobby through the evolution of the Sci Fi genre and more importantly why Sci Fi evolved the way it did.

Another great example of how much shorter our attention spans have gotten. Many new comics tend to be more geared toward visual porn than story telling. You and I don't enjoy reading those types of comics, but I believe Gen Y and Z do tend to. It's not really even reading, relatively speaking. It's more like 'reading along'.

This. Remember when we used to be patient enough to wait 3 months so snail mail a check to a dealer for a comic we wanted and often would not even get the book we asked for? What a far cry from just a few decades ago. One of the fundamental root problems to many industries is people no longer have patience to seek out the good things that wait on the other side of that patience. Like the delayed gratification of waiting for a next installment. It's actually a beautiful thing that many in upcoming generations will never experience. Instilling patience and delayed gratification in kids is just as important as making sure they're educated and mentally healthy. In fact, that sort of patience will ensure the rest falls into place.

You've attacked me for weeks unprovoked, mischaracterized my posts, and when I finally challenge you to produce what I wrote (and don't) you are just now admitting you don't even understand what I wrote? I'm thankful that everyone can now see for themselves why I no longer reply. Have a good day.

Did I mention that I love it when you post?

I love it when you post.

There you go. Historically, IIRC classic covers did NOT sell for as much as "origin stories" pre internet. It was the advent of the internet - and CGC is definitely a product of the internet - that drove demand to a cover market and suppressed prices of origin stories. I remember chasing "origin stories" fervently as a kid. They were hot keys in the 70's and 80's (I stopped collecting in the 90's). If an origin story was reprinted, everyone still wanted it. By the time the 2000s came around, covers began to overtake and now they are considered the ultimate collecting goal. I give you LB Cole covers as the perfect example. Even 10 years ago you could purchase LB Cole covers for a few $100. I know because I bought a set of high grade LB Cole cover books and sold them here. Now those same books are going for $1000's and $10,000s. Does ANYONE know which stories are in those LB Cole books? Likely not.

I brought it up because that is where the discussion originated with a female friend of mine. The fact that nobody has discussed that point in this entire discussion until you brought it up is a testimony to the integrity of the discussion and how everyone has stayed on point. Since nobody has been discussing it, it's entirely irrelevant and you shouldn't have brought it up either. I'm pretty sure everyone will agree on that.

I would take issue here in that Victor has to live with what he has created in that his over reaching pride or hubris created something that will haunt him for what time is left of his fife. Shelley added the Promethean sub-title did she not - and there is undeniable horror in that fate - and I would add Icarus as well. We see a modern take in the recent Oppenheimer movie. There is no denying the science in either we can see both chained to that stone and the horror it entails. I would go one step further and say (esp. re: Amazeron's reply) that "The whole point of the book is a cautionary tale about the lengths we’ll go for science." and would personally add that the main point is that science DOES things it can't undo. The story was specifically described as a reaction to the Industrial Revolution. From Study.Com "Victor Frankenstein represents Romanticism because he is a warning against scientific pursuit without thought. Romanticism was a reaction to the Industrial Revolution, and Victor created something without considering the consequences of his actions." That is how I have always perceived the story as well. Just because I or others perceive the story that way doesn't mean it's the only way to perceive it. The discussion about classification is an interesting one, ONLY because it's more interesting to know WHY people think a certain way then to actually know WHAT they think. The "what" is a blip on the radar. The "why" is everything else. Agreed. Literary masterpieces, or any artistic masterpiece transcends classification because they touch the human spirit in ways that large masses of people across many boundaries can relate to. Certain artists transcend generations, societies, demographics and especially their intended audience, because they stir the soul in ways that most can't. Nobody has made the case that Shelley hasn't transcended these barriers so I'm not sure why it's even being discussed.

Nobody throughout this entire discussion has discussed the writer being a woman. That's a common baiting tactic that just distracts from the conversation. This entire discussion has solely been on the merits of the work and how it is categorized both historically and currently. Nothing more, and anything else is just an unnecessary distraction. Let's not go down that road.

You interjected what you think are my personal beliefs into a discussion purely about economics. Please stop interjecting what you think my personal beliefs are into discussions. In regards to the parts in your quote that I bolded above, I absolutely did not state those things either. Those are your INTERPRETATIONS of what I wrote based on a game of broken telephone or your bad memory. I know because I've been guilty of it in the past, realized it and don't do it any longer. Try to find quotes of mine stating what you stated in bold above. You won't find them anywhere because I never said them. If you don't directly quote someone's words, and ONLY stick what they've stated, it's impossible to have a reasonable conversation. This is not how proper conversations are done.

That was my fundamental point #2 which I posted a few weeks ago. Children are being socially programmed by social media to be impatient, seek instant gratification, and choose visuals over words. They're being deprogrammed and becoming illiterate in just 1-2 generations. Just looking at how they spell in texts and messages is a leading indicator. They can't spell properly, form proper grammar or even have proper conversations anymore. And everyone is wondering why they don't read comics? A perfect social engineering parallel is comic collecting. Collecting has moved from collecting reading content to collecting covers only. For example, does anyone have any old OSPG handy? I don't. How did, say, Detective #31 (classic cover) compare to #33 (origin story) 40 years ago? 30 years ago? 20 years ago? Today? We know today that #31 is a monster book that eclipses #33 in value now, but did it always eclipse #33? I'd guess and say that #33 was the more desirable book when people actually READ the book. Once reading became passe, #31 overtook it. In much the same way, young people are being DISCOURAGED from reading so all the content in the world won't matter if they don't want to, or worse CAN'T read. We are literally changing how we behave and act on a scale across ALL society, through social media.

Dude, you need to pull back on the whisky posting a little.

Not at all. PART of Manga's overall appeal comes from exactly the type of content YOU believe is screwing up the American market. There's no shortage of fairies, feminine male characters, homosexuals (MALE maybe even more than female), Transgender, deviant HETROsexual behaviors... violence, ultra violence... RAPE... Manga does NOT hold back at all. You quoted me but didn't reply to anything I said in the quote. You then proceeded to redirect the conversation to interject what you think my personal beliefs are (and you were wrong about that as well), and not at all what is represented or asked of in my quote. You continually make things personal, which is why I can't have a proper conversation with you. Please stop making it personal. Thanks.

Right. What is happening here is collectors are basically comparing oranges to clementines rather than clementines to clementines. But if someone thought the 9.0 was a 9.2 sitting in a 9.0 holder then the results make perfect sense, don't they?

Of course. Humans are psychologically wired to derive satisfaction from long term pursuits, not short term gratification. People think they're going to be happy when they get that "one book" and then they get that "one book" and they're not happy any longer. They need either a nicer copy of that same book or they now need a totally different book. People mistake happiness for things like contentment, peace or joy and those things aren't found in attaining a specific goal, they're found in the long term progress towards those goals, because once you achieve your 'goal', you're empty and need to find another goal to replace the one you achieved. That's where the phrase "enjoy the journey" comes from.

As values increase, the price difference between grade points and even books within the same grade has forced buyers to choose between examples within the same grade, opening up and entire new sub-market. If people are silly enough to pay 30% more for White pages or other different qualities, then this opens an entirely new industry to cater to these people. The coin industry has done this for a long time, with either markings to differentiate between 'better' or 'worse' examples in the same grade OR splitting the grades into finer sub grades (64, 65, 66 rather than just a 6.0 and a 6.5). Why is anyone surprised or against it? It's just a natural progression for comics. Almost everything in comics is borrowed from the coin industry. The coin industry is so large and so old that it makes comics look like Pokemon cards. It's probably only a matter of time before CGC adopts the coin grading model, which really was a grading model used by many dealers decades ago anyway (and some still do).

No, it's an independent 3rd party. The real question is did someone think the 9.6 was undergraded?

We've discussed various aspects of why comic book stores are failing. I stand by the points that I've made that big corporate involvement through various avenues is adulterating the art form. I also stand by the point that Manga (or Japanese comics), which is overtaking American comics are probably a model most should consider. I just had a very interesting conversation with a person (pretty much a stranger, I've only met them twice now including today) about Manga and why the read it. They basically told me that Manga is like The Simpsons, in that they have a huge amount of social commentary and open discourse that is permitted because the characters are not 'human' in the discussions, making the topics thought provoking without making them offensive. They told this sort of direct view into social culture is what makes Manga so appealing to them, and I can understand why. Outside of Battle of the Planets in the 80's and Frank Miller's obvious Japanese influence in comics, my experience to Japanese comic books is pretty limited. Does this ring true to any of the manga readers here?

Mods notified. Also, Tupenny notified. Where is that bugger?

They've been around for years, but hasn't CGC only been recognizing them for about 5 years or so? And they've mostly been dropping since the first copies have hit the market. That's a normal trend for any book. I think one dealer sold me they sold a CPV 9.8 for something like $5K because it was the 1st one and now all the rest are selling for much less. I can't remember which book it was. Maybe a Secret Wars #1 or something? Anyway, nobody is saying they shouldn't fetch a premium. I think everyone agrees that 2021 was a real anomaly and that a correction was going to happen.

Depends on the Copper book…I’d gladly pay $8.5K for a TMNT #1 or Bone #1 or even a Newsstand ASM 300. Fair points. I sold a Thor #337 9.9 a few years ago for less than $8K. Wonder what it could fetch today.

But did anyone think paying $8500 for a copper key in 9.8 wasn't too much? If they're throwing outrageous money at something, it's usually either ignorance or they want it bad and either way I don't feel bad for people who throw outrageous sums of money for relatively common things. There has to be a point where we can say, "OK this is too much" and in a world where everyone is afraid to speak the truth, $8500 is was obviously too much.

I've followed his progress meticulously since the late 1970s and I can see his changes, especially when Janson started doing the art and Miller was just doing layouts. I actually have a hard time labelling those DD issues from 185 onward as "Miller art" although I know many do. It was almost all Janson. To this day, though Miller's art slays me. It hits me like nothing else does. Not Adams, not Wrightson, not Kirby. Nobody. It's probably just because he hit me during those formative early teenage years in the early 80's and my neurological pathways bonded with him.

Apples and oranges. If his head was tilted much lower in the movie and his shoulder was bigger, like it is in Miller's rendering, one ear would disappear in the shadow. Whether Batman is facing backward or forward in your argument is irrelevant because either way, one ear would disappear with the right amount of head tilting.