comicwiz

On 1/25/2024 at 4:39 PM, wiparker824 said:

Here's a fun one I stumbled across...

First image from WP/eBay sale from 7/16/23 direct edition book, direct edition label for $760. 

Second image from listing on Grailz IG account on 8/15/23 for $2999 but what's this, magically there's a newsstand book inside. Side note - my man wastes no time getting books reholdered, got to say I struggle to even get CGC to open my box in 1 month this guy bought it from eBay got it shipped to him and reholdered, then relisted thru Grailz in 1 month. Impressive. 

Third image from CGC scans on verify tool. The 2nd custom label, which hey at least it's not a Spidey custom label on an X-Men book anymore, also got CGC to "fix" his label and notate the newsstand edition this time. 

Looks like there isn't any shortage of fun to be had - I'll see your July 16 2023 sale with Certification: 4220532001, and raise you another X-Men 266 9.8, that happened to sell on the exact same day (7/16/2023), and after it reappered in the second sale below (11/21/2023), we also can notice it changed from Direct to Newsstand.

Certification: 2120143023

Beginning first with the cert look-up for posterity:

1) Cert: 2120143023  | ebay  | 7/16/2023 | $760 - note: pics are small, but you can see the cert # on the back pic 

2) Difference noted (changes from direct to newsstand) when it reappears for sale on eBay on 11/21/2023 | $1,725

3) Reappers a third time on eBay - Cert: 2120143023 [12/5/2023] - $1,680

On 1/25/2024 at 5:57 PM, sledgehammer said:

this is carrying more, and more weight with me.

why I was screenshoting the certs - we need to keep a reference before they get revised or removed.

On 1/23/2024 at 10:50 PM, wiparker824 said:

If it’s crossed off and they’re being compensated does this mean CGC’s just crossing off all books returned to them? Regardless of if they’re verified as legit or not?

The method being used is completely counter-intuitive to be able to track progress or developments on this impacted list. 

There should be no reason (I can't see this being indeliberate either, because someone planning out the books on the  "impacted" list would surely recognize the issues this would cause) for strikethroughs to comingle books that have been reviewed as legitimate with those deemed compromised.

They're calling it in with the reportfraud@ email in red notation:

They're striking it off the list (we know from precodemonster he's been told it's compromised):

Add this to the ever growing pile of things that make no sense in the the methods being used, not to mention the confusion this creates for those monitoring this list and/or using it to assess what's been impacted and what's been struck off the list (appearing prior to this, books that were determined to be ok).

On 1/23/2024 at 1:29 PM, NewWorldOrder said:

Assuming you are talking about the harder to replace comics right?

When we are talking about FMV, we are talking about a value of something. As I've explained FMV is deficient in reconciling the past vs today or current value. Replacement value is the only method to arrive at a resolution because it incorporates factors of depreciation and market fluctuations. 

When you talk about "replacement" you're assuming someone is going to be content just getting that book accurately graded. You haven't thought far along enough to consider that what they might want is the money they paid for that book,knowing it was a tamper-proof holder,and that the book inside was what was being sold to them. 

You are assuming no one is going to want their money, their original purchase price. Not FMV. 

That's where you're assessment of this mess is deficient.

On 1/23/2024 at 10:55 AM, wiparker824 said:

The other question I have I don’t believe has been brought up around FMV is are they going to estimate the FMV as of mid-December 2023 when the scam was discovered or when they receive your book? Because there will be some people who don’t follow every news story from CGC and don’t realize their book is on this list until let’s say 3 years from now when they send it to an auction house and are notified. Then what? Let’s say the FMV at that time is 50% less than today? What if it’s 50% more? Is CGC going to pay out the FMV at the time they receive the books indefinitely? Because if they are, even if you know your book is on the list you could in theory just hold it until the FMV hits whatever value you’re waiting on to sell if you want to roll the dice.

We are now hearing from some people who are getting their books sent back to them as clean books, which is great. I’ll be interested to hear from those that went thru the FMV process though. 

This is why I mention FMV is not equipped to handle situations such as this incident. By its very definition, it requires both buyer/seller to know all relevent facts, have a reasonable knowledge of what they are purchasing, and are entering into the transaction or trade free from pressure. The fact each buyer purchased a "tampered" comic known to have had it's holder tampered with at a later time, means it is deficient in retroactively assisting with an assessment of adequate compensation at the time the discovery of tampering occurred. 

As most already know (and I've certainly said this enough in past posts) replacement value is the most capable of handling some of the more complex issues this situation presents. Part of it is the messy situation of compensating victims who bought in a peak market, and are now facing the prospect of being offered current values for that book,which have in many instances, dropped significantly from 2020 and 2021 prices.

In a real world scenario outside of this scandal, the complexities associated to exploting the holder, and rendering the property to be of even less value than the tampered holder/label would indicate, would be akin to an extreme weather event like the flooding which occurred some years back due to lake level mismanagement. In that situation, coastal home owners who had never experienced a flood situation in their lives were being denied coverage by their insurers, who had found a way to wiggle themselves out of compensation,citing that homeowners now needed to carry a seperate water damage rider. What happened here is homeowners were misinformed that this unexplained flooding event was caused by "climate change" when in fact, it had nothing to do with climate change, and everything to do with the IJC's decisions to raise water levels for shipping. hydroelectric generation, and recreational boating.

This prompted the State of New York to go after the IJC for $1 Billion relating to the misnamanagement of lake-levels causing flooding damage that reached coastal communities in NY. Had this been more well known,what should have occurred as soon as this event took place is for all homeowners who had been denied coverage to demand from their insurance company to cover their damages, and for the insurance industry to devise a subrogation plan to recover damages from the IJC. 

It may seem a crude example to bring up, but I see a lot of parallels from the steps currently being taken. Using the "fair" in FMV is a euphamism for taking a financial hit in the chin, not because it's an accurate way to arrive at a compensation that is deserving to people impacted in this situation. For the above reasons, as well as all the other info I've shared thus far, I think the only chance for appropriate redress is to get the Feds involved. It would be a shame if customers who participate in the options offered by The CGC Guarantee find themselves being disqualified or excluded from participating in alternative remedies. In the instance of the floods incorrectly being blamed on climate change as way a for insurers to wiggle out of paying out claims, not to mention how they used the flooding impacting hundreds of homeowners as an opportunity to cross-sell "water" coverages as a separate rider (and yes, I'm aware that as I write this, it is too eerily reminiscent of the 9.9 prescreen pitch during the interview) - with this incident, those impacted are also going by the information being provided to them by the grader whose interest is to handle this matter privately.

On 1/23/2024 at 9:58 AM, paqart said:

A good point related to this is that just compensation is different if you go to the seller (via police) or CGC. 1) CGC compensates for (current) FMV. 2) If you go to the seller, you could theoretically a full refund + damages. If you paid more than it is currently worth, then the 2) best options are to go after the seller for a full refund, 1) or to CGC for a replacement book that is legitimately the grade and comic represented on the holder.

I don't see the scenario I marked 2) in your comment being possible without some LE or Federal oversight. The problem with the scenario I marked as 1) is that there is nothing in The CGC Guarantee that accomodates or reconciles that scenario. It needs to be more than a verbal assurance - it needs to be in writing.

To me, using the FMV angle is no different than actual cash value (ACV) which is something that does not reconcile disparities in depreciation, or in this instance, the impacts of market fluctations between the timeline of these books originally being purchased and the discovery of this "holder tampering."

There's so much I can expand on in this regard, but what I will say is that replacement value (RV) would have been suited to accomodate the massive fluctuations we've seen since the peak markets of 2020/21.

Seeing FMV thrown out in an incident of this magnitude, is like paying for a 5 star all-inclusive resort,and when you're checking-in, they give you discount coupons for McDonalds instead of what was marketed to you.

It's baffling to me especialy when I see people talking about the "market advantages" of using CGC - they are clearly deluded, and have become the bizarro world alternate of the spoon-feeding that allowed CGC to achieve the foothold they have.

When you combine the above inadequacies of The CGC Guarantee, and an exploited "tamper-proof" holder, all you're really hanging on to is a misinformed opinion and view that is going to leave you exposed for ignoring the signs and evidence proving otherwise.

On 1/22/2024 at 8:16 AM, drotto said:

We should not let this thread go away completely.  I still want updates, and we need to keep applying pressure to change the problems.

I agree. However this is far from being over. The work I've done is now in a wait and see period, and last time I checked the list has had 35 books struck off it. 

I don't think people realize the challenges ahead, but I'm going to give a very crude example of what I mean here. In the over 20 years I've been a member, I have had about a dozen people contacting me by PM with "problem" books. Even before the Spider-Dan incident and the JIM 83 going from blue to purple to blue again because someone exploited CGC's walk thru during conventions where they would do onsite, I was getting PM's from people explaining how they tried to CPR a blue that became purple. In nearly every instance, they were getting pushback on appropriate compensation, and those that hung the "taking it to the boards" over CGC's head in such instances seemed to get the result. That's just about a dozen books over a 20+ year period.

Here we are talking about hundreds of books, if we go by CGC's list alone. 

As someone that has studied the sales patterns of many of these books, those incidents I describe above are a walk in the park. Imagine when people, who bought in the height of the pandemic (esp some of the prices we saw in 2021 representing "peak" markets) being told they are going to come away with 30-50% of what they originally paid due to the drastic downturns like we've seen 

Because of the abovementioned, this is very much a make or break moment, and while I do want to see the alleged perps prosecuted, I also recoginize the much bigger challenge ahead is customer/consumer redress.

On 1/15/2024 at 9:04 PM, WestcoastDAVEngers said:

Hey all, so I needed to keep this under wraps until it happened, but this interview took place today, hopefully it helps answer some of the questions we've all had. Matt did a good job answering what he could

 

 

Thanks @WestcoastDAVEngers for the shout out, and to both you and Manu for asking some important questions during the interview. I want to also thank @mnelsonCGC for providing the community a human touch point during this turbulent period in our hobby. I was pleased to hear the certs were being kept internally, and at the 46 minute mark, to hear CGC will be prosecuting this individual to the full extent of the law.

On 1/15/2024 at 7:21 AM, Bookery said:

I may be misunderstanding this.  I guess for tracking specific certification numbers, there may be an issue.  But as for pricing, the fact that the books were fraudulent really doesn't make a difference.  If someone bought a 9.8, but in reality the book inside had been switched for one missing a Marvel stamp, for example, the price being paid still represents what someone wanted to pay for a 9.8, the actual book inside notwithstanding.  Therefore GPA averages for a given period and grade shouldn't be affected.  

It's a lot more complicated than what you are describing (esp the part I bolded). The issue is that this whole situation is continually evolving and is nowhere near being finalized. That 350 list continues to shrink with books being struck off the list, and I continue finding books not on the original list. The other part of this is that certification numbers are being purged from the CGC Verify Certification look-up. No redacting or manner of explaning why, no connection at all to these books, serving in some instances as a donor book to a swap. The reason I posted the examples and matrix with Project Green to Blue was to capture a glimpse into the manner this was being monetized, often with donor books being purchased a month or several months prior to the blue example selling at a factor of two or in multiples of the donor. The other things I've only spoken of is the way certain books would repeatedly be sold, and this is something that needs to be reconciled at some point, but it is VERY early in the investigative stages. It could be even worse than some of the things we've talked about, with more than just two books sharing the same cert number. I'd like to see CGC reveal some of their own findings. They've become so comfortable letting the community do the grunt work, discovery and fact pattern finding that expecting some level of collaborative back and forth is a pipe dream at this point. But we definitely have the evidence showing the subversion of more than "holder tampering"; rather, the very real problem with downstream impacts this has had on their certification look-up and systems we use for pricing is that CGC is showing an unusual penchant for quietly purging information in the background without explanation. Some of the information being purged is vital to the ways an investigation is able to gather a chain of evidence, which in itself seemingly reveals a pattern of tampering with evidence. The discourse needs to focus on the latter, and the reasons why this is happening, rather than the down the line impacts of the other ways this incident has manipulated the market.