comicwiz

On 1/9/2024 at 11:18 PM, gpanalysis said:

What were you looking for us to say? This is a slab tampering and slab processing issue. The fact is without GPAnalysis this would not have been as easily discovered - we've been recording CGC certification numbers against sales for more than two decades, and we also track those certs across historical sales. We also track and identify a number of details that have allowed collectors to see this originally identified as Newsstand book move to a Newsstand/MJ insert designation and delve further into what was going on.

We've supplied data to CGC with respects to this situation, and previously with (the identification of trimmed books sold through Ewert). 

We also spend time checking previous sales data and, as best we can, remove erroneous sales and identify relisted books. Unless these current books under investigation need to be adjusted (with respects to sales not having gone through) then we won't be removing anything from GPA. Including any certs that no longer appear in CGC's system.

As a pricing first service, we are also the most complete and accurate information source for CGC books. Our service is used daily by tens of thousands of collectors.

So not really sure what a public statement or email from us at this stage would achieve, especially as information is still being collected and analysed by multiple parties, other than to blow our own horn.

 

(sorry, I just saw this post now)

Thanks @gpanalysis  for everything you have done in the past, present, and continue to do as this situation continues to develop. Our community of collectors is highly indebted to the hard work you've done to make GPA the most reliable source for information on past sales. Without GPA, none of what I was able to uncover through my research would have been possible. 

On 1/13/2024 at 7:10 PM, sledgehammer said:

graders notes says slight crushing of s̶p̶i̶n̶e̶  souls.

Fixed that for you 

Information wittheld.

I'm trying my best not to be critical, but reading through the conditions of consumers impacted by this as set out in The CGC Guarantee is rather unsettling. It is amazing to me that CGC is requiring the cooperation of those impacted to surrender "impacted" books on the list they created, but have used the most verbose and technically complex language possible to lay out what in my estimation is a lopsided avantage to the Guarantor, who may/may not cover or compensate those impacted by this. As somone who handles appraisals in a wide-range of situations, including in post-loss scenarios, I am both baffled and completely underwhelmed by what I'm reading, and what I'm seeing happening behind the scenes, and hope that those impacted at the very least seek out a second opinion by an impartial party on any offer of compensation they receive.

However, what I think the community most needs to know (and believe me when I say there is a lot I am restraining myself from sharing) is that it is not a good look right now that CGC is removing certificaiton numbers, which in essence may serve as a critical component of establishing the very evidence proving the tampering took place. I have already begun seeing this happen with the Project Green to Blue books, where the certifications numbers for the green (qualified) are no longer available for look-up on the Verify CGC Certification. This is one of the reason why I've been heistant in sharing other books NOT on the impacted list, which are on the dataset that I first used to find the books I did. 

Finally, under the section of the CGC Guarantee page titled Exclusive Venue for Disputes and Governing Law, under the section EVERYWHERE ELSE - I want to put it out there that for those impacted (and you don't have to be directly impacted by this to qualify for these options I am providing, because we are all indirectly impacted by this for too many reasons to list here at the moment), the community should be aware that as a consumer, you have every right to file a report with the FTC, the Office of the Inspector General, and with your State Attorney General’s Office Consumer Protection Division, as well as obtaining legal assistance.

I didn't ask for anything in return for the work I did, but I did expect better from CGC than what I'm seeing, in the manner this is all being handled. I'm very disappoiinted with what I've seen develop thus far.

 A couple of things nagging at me. First, I'm noticing some modifications happening behind the scene. This:

Has now been removed from the verification look-up:

If you look at the AF 15 that's been called out to be returned to CGC, it has a grade date of Jan 5th

@CGC Mike Are you able to ask the team why are they removing the records of the certs completely, and not just redacting them in some way? And if they have been cleared, and reassigned a new cert, why they couldn't bridge that strikethrough or cleared cert in a way where we know what cert it ended-up with?

Not to mention when I see stuff like this, it makes me wonder if the PIA of having to reformat the hyphenated cert number to run a verification check is intentional.

On 1/11/2024 at 2:55 AM, MasterChief said:

Joseph,

I was digging through an old external drive of comic book data files and came across your CGC forum detective badge* awarded many years ago. Unfortunately, I could only find the small version that appears to have been resaved one too many times.

 

Having seen it again I realized just how long you’ve been serving. Amazing work!

That said, and on behalf of your fellow detectives and hobbyists, thank you for 20 years of sustained superior performance and dedicated service to the CGC forum community and the comic book hobby at large. It is truly appreciated!

 

 

____________

* CGC Forum Detective Badges were created and awarded by Brad Hamann (Red Hook) as public recognition for outstanding achievement and other acts or services of consumer protection that were above and beyond what is normally expected of CGC forum members. Criterion for award recommendation and consideration was based upon work performed to bring corruption and dishonesty within the hobby to the forefront, usually through data collection and study, the use of digital scan technology and comparative imagery analysis, and the presentation of findings and conclusions. Service to the general collecting community was a priority for consideration. Former award recipients include: rickdogg, Jeffreykli, OldGuy, Abrams, Delekkerste, Rosenberg, Arty, DiceX, Davenport, Comicwiz, and MasterChief.

 

I unfortunately don't have any external drive to source or mine the number of badges I'm certain you have earned yourself, in the long history of past scandals, but I definitely feel you merit more accolades for your detective work than I. I appreciate the kindness, gratitude and thought you put into this, but you my friend deserve an even bigger badge for all you have brought to light over the years. I consider myself hugely fortunate to have spent all the years i did making friends like you, both online and IRL, and gaining support from this community, and the community external to this one. It shows how crucial it is for us all to work together, to cooperate and to stand united, it's the only chance we have to see justice being served in instances like this one. It also reminds me that the baton has been passed to us from those who haven't fared as well in doing their part in past scandals, some have left for reasons which are totally understandable given the fact pattern of inaction by this company, and for this reason, if there's one thing I ask of the community at large here, is to demand answers from CGC. Demand transparency. Demand the truth. CGC needs to tell it all, tell it early and tell it themselves. As ugly as it might be, we deserve better than nothing to see here attitudes that have weighed-in to do their part to minimize. I can assure everyone, including those acting as advisors to the company, that I have seen great turnaround stories with some of the largest companies when they rolled-up their sleeves, course corrected and did what was both right and necessary, in the best interest of the consumer. Those that decided to stick their heads in the sand, cover-up or even hide what really went on were the ones that never came out of it unscathed. There's an opportunity for the right thing to happen here. 

Apologies if this has already been covered. Got back home, and wanted to update the thread with a response from GoCollect. 

This is the way. If you're on IG, please post and show a sign of support on redacting the records, deleting does no one any good. I was heading out to my son's practices, but felt it important to post something about this as the disappearance of data is unwise, especially in situations such as these. 

On 1/9/2024 at 10:28 AM, BrashL said:

This all brings it back to what a lot of people were saying originally, you can't trust any book in the current cases unless it's your book. Even then we need an explanation from CGC how so many books passed through the business without being flagged. Once there is a good explanation for how this fraud was perpetrated under their nose for so long, we need specific actions (what process has been changed, how many people have been replaced, etc.) that have been implemented. THEN we need a new case so collectors know what books they can trust and which ones they need to research to be sure they are what's on the label. Until then you'd have to be nuts to buy a CGC book for your own collection based on the information on the slab alone. 

100% in agreement with your assessment.

I shared this statement with someone yesterday: "We have arrived at a juncture in hobbying where the enterprising and transactional dynamics have rendered systems graders invented decades ago to counter fraud and tampering exposed and vulnerable. There's so much I can expand on this point, but it would be naive to believe it's tentacles don't reach any hobby with one or more grading services at this point."

On 1/9/2024 at 7:44 AM, sledgehammer said:

ONCE AGAIN.

Every book that this guy has touched should have the cert # EXPOSED.

On 12/18, Mikey C noted that a 9.8 ASM 252 copy that zaneglor sold, looked exactly like the real 9.8 that was part of the swap that started all this.

That cert # https://www.cgccomics.com/certlookup/4324007003/

That comic book is not on the list. Neither is  001, 002, 004, or 007.

The only two on the list, are THE ONES with a custom label, 005 and 006 AND THE GRADE DATE IS NOT DIFFERENT.

All of the other books are 9.8, and not custom labels, of the EXACT keys that he scams.

That means, he may have these slabs, and can try to insert sleeves in to them again, through some private listing consigner, without the additional benefit that the custom holder swapping was giving him.

A list of every one of his submissions, needs to be posted somewhere.

I 100% agree that the missing link here is some intermingled dataset overlapping sales history with their submission history. 

These are hypotheticals to an alleged "holder tampering" incident, draw from this the inferences you feel are most compelling to the situation.

CGC is getting the sales history by going to one or more sources that track this information. What you asked for - submission history - is very reasonable, but CGC will never reveal that, at least not publicly. Privacy will likely be cited, and should a legal case develop, legal restrictions may apply in the future.

The other variable here, which is even more complex, is the donor sources outside of eBay for swaps. The submission history might illuminate some of these data gaps for us.

Not saying this to toot my horn, but as a matter of fact - I strongly believe that CGC will not have anywhere near the picture I've developed intermingling the sales history with the impacted list, using the methods I have. They may have a slight advantage by revewing the seller-linked submissions, but they need an impartial party - with the consumers best interest in mind - to look at it all overlapped to really draw out a more accurate impact. Even if they have "private investigators/forensic examiners" on the task, CGC is not compelled to share any findings it deems a risk to their reputation or actionable interests.

Regardless, there is no way any of these hypotheticals happen without the 350 swelling to nearing 1500 books. This is a conservative number, and I believe it could possibly be higher if we consider that every swap needs two books, one with a donor in an incorrectly assigned slab, with the added downside of the other either being in another incorrectly assigned slab, or in the waiting for an opportunistic swap.

@CGC Mike I have noticed strikethroughs on certain books appearing on the "impacted" list. But I have just noticed a cert number that wasn't on it from the time I first downloaded it.

Would it be possible whenever these updates are made to the list, that the person tag somewhere, either at the original date, or somewhere at the top of the list, when these updates occur? :Like an Last updated Jan 8th

The certification number I'm referring to is: 3813909-003. I am unsure if there have been others added as well. I'm just one of many I'm sure that would like to be able to track these updates so we know the latest additions as well as removals from the list. 

Thanks!

I've taken the analysis portion as far as I'd like from my end for the time being. I want to clarify some things to understand why I did what I did.

As an accredited appraiser, the moment I saw the potential for prices to have been manipulated, I needed to do my own independent research on the matter. I take very seriously the codes of ethics I'm bound to as part of a society of appraisers, and this excercise is crucial to me beyond the purpose of facilitating the ways prices were influenced by alleged tampering. It illuminates some of the very real activities that I've only up until this point believed were happening, and have theorized might be possible. Through the examples I've shown, I've left it to the community to form their own opiinions on what that looks like, even if all we have at the moment are allegations of "holder tampering."

Currently, what we have from CGC is a list of "approximately 350" comics. In addition to this, we have an "Updated: CCG and CGC Comics Statement on Holder Tampering Incident" posted on Jan 3, 2024 revealing an "impacted list." I am proceeding from the alleged "tampering" CGC has put forth, based on the list of "impacted" comics.

From the analysis, I have: 

117 records with no sales history - on my master list, I have these highlighted in yellow

That leaves an approximated differential of 233 records from the approximate 350 on the "impacted list"

8 strikethroughs at the present date, of which 5 are from the 117 records with no sales history.

3 of the strikethroughs represent a deduction of  $33,145 from the totals below

Green: $945,758.08 - this is the total for each single incident sale for certifications appearing on the "impacted list"

Red: $177,417 - this is the total for multiple or repeat sales of the same certificaiton, but focusing primarily on the accounts which have been alleged to be connected to this "holder tampering."

Total: $1,123,175.08 - this combines green and red totals.

If we deduct the 3 strikethroughs, the total is $1,090,030.08 from approximately 225 records after taking all deductions and strikethroughs into account.

These may look like numbers, but this is a real financial impact. The red to me is a disturbing reminder that without the communities vigilance, we may not have had any reason or purpose to scrutinize this matter. That we have an incident like this to reveal the ways markets are manipulated, real or unproven as allegations at the moment, is a reason for all to take pause to let this sink in.

It is encumbent on all of us to demand answers. If there is an explanation for some of the "holder tampering" that has been uncovered, or how/why books appear to have changed inside slabs with an unchanged certification, it's important it's shared with the community with the utmost transparency and truth.

There may be a perfectly good explanation for all this, we need to hear it from CGC. And this extends to explanations on a number of questions on how grade dates conjoining books on the "impacted list" occured in otherwise impossible circumstances when factoring in regular submission to be processed, and the confluence of standard delays seen with turnaround times, logistics and return delivery timeframes.

Thanks to @spidermanbeyond for starting this thread, and as well to too many names to list for their assistance thus far. I'm fading to the background and returning to the daily grind. One last thing, we need to all be grateful that we have sites like GPA - bad actors crowd every hobby I'm involved in, it's crtical that we understand the importance data repositories and the need to mine for past sales is to give us any chance of staying on top of this cat and mouse game.

I am hoping the next major announcement we hear from CGC is an intent to aggresively pursue this matter, and for those allegedly tied to it to be prosecuted.