GreatEscape

We've been expecting you....time to have some fun!   

That's an intriguing thought that age doesn't matter with comic art. 

In the Fine Arts world, artists tend to peak later in their career when their best and/or most celebrated works (1) exhibit more refine, matured style and (2) arrive during periods of greatest exposure and popularity.  For example, Mona Lisa was one of Da Vinci's final paintings arriving 50 years after The Last Supper.   Norman Rockwell did paintings for Saturday Evening Post starting in 1916 but virtually all his famous pieces came in later years including Freedom of Speech (1943), Saying Grace (1943) and even Triple Self-Portrait (1961) at the ripe age of 66!  Modern master David Hockney spent a decade drawing and painting swimming pools until Pool with Two Figures (1972), his signature work.

Comic art is a bit different as collectors usually prize pages during an artist's peak (aka prime) period-- usually coinciding with a signature title or even a partial run of popular issues.  This plays in to nostalgia as collectors tend to value more highly art from books they enjoyed reading most.  As artists extend their careers past their primes, values typically diminish as time passes from their signature work.

That said, Starlin Thanos might be an exception-- perhaps one of many-- that defy this rule.  As many know, Starlin conceived of Thanos in the mid-1970s as a demi-god adversary for his "Cosmic" heroes Warlock and Captain Marvel, joining the likes of Drax, Magus, Pip and the In-Betweener, and for a moment crossed over into mainstream Marvel with Avengers Annual #7 (1977).   Thanos didn't get his big break-- a starring lead role as Marvel's ultimate gauntlet-wielding baddie made famous in the movies--  until more a decade later in Thanos Quest (1990), Infinity Guantlet (1991-92) and the Thanos Limited Series (1993) which culminated in that Thanos #6 cover fighting Spidey, Avengers, GOTG and some FF.  This 1990s "rebirth" for Thanos came with renewed popularity and now tied to strong nostalgic currents driving 1990s art prices to new heights.  

In this case, I believe Age is relevant here but a small factor.  Certainty, a fantastic Thanos battle cover by his creator and primary artist so the buyer should be proud.  While published late in Starlin's career,  the 1990s are perhaps Thanos' peak period of popularity and a very nostalgic era for many collectors.  Collecting in the early 2000s, I considered art from the 1990s as too "Modern" (less than 10 years old)  compared to "vintage" 1970s work (30 years old)....seemed like a huge difference then.  I regret not picking up more 1990s art in hindsight.  Today, 1990s art is almost 30 years old (!) while 1970s stuff is 50 years old-- less of contrast in age. 

1 hour ago, fishbone said:

My thoughts would be something around 30K + , but I think it's quite variable (things like size of Spidey and/or Venom image, number of Spidey/Venom images on the page, quality of images, etc.). Recent Heritage sales in 2020 are only real good indicators, and I think the 30K is fairly accurate at this point ....... but it only takes 2 bidders who really want a page to drive this type of thing way up ......... 

Aside from the recent ASM #328 half-splash ($120k, fueled in part by book completist demand), Heritage really hasn’t offered a true A-level McSpidey page since 2017.  Owners just don’t want to part with them as the dozen would-be buyers that I know will attest. 

ComicLink sold a A/A+ page (1 Venom panel) for $58k in Oct 2020...I’d bet the new buyer would need 20% premium to even start discussions in today’s market

I know 2 collectors who declined offers on McSpidey pages at 2x what they paid 4 years ago when top McSpidey panel pages were already selling for 25k+ (A $26k from SM #2, A+ $46k from ASM #317) on Heritage.  I pressed, I would calibrate today’s A-level at 2x $26k (2017 sale) = $50k but that’s my own perspective (your mileage may vary). 

Note:  If anyone does have an A-level McSpidey page for sale at $30k, please PM me asap. 

29 minutes ago, heartened said:

Dave, so what Heck should be bumped to 5-10K?  LMK and I'll include.  And are we saying we should add Ditko TOS somewhere?

I'd agree with Dave's suggested 5-10k for A-level Heck twice-up Avengers / TOS / X-Men having acquired two examples (5k X-Men, 7k Avengers) in past 2 years.  No need to break-out but be aware of premium pricing (10-20k) for Heck's pre-49 TOS pages with Iron Man and Avengers 20-22 pages inked by Wally Wood.

13 hours ago, heartened said:

Judging by the current bid on the Wrightson A level panel page on Heritage right now, I'm thinking we may need to bump Wrightson Swamp Thing into the 30K+ category.  Let's see.  Looking at the others in the 20-30K range, Wrightson Swamp Thing does look like the one ready to move to the next level.  Although I suppose the current auction listing could qualify as an A+ page.

Agree with you Hari.  Solid A example-- a page I owned until a few years ago but not the current consignor-- that I wouldn't be surprised seeing $50K+ with BP.  Gorgeous page deserving of attention.  Since 2015 (when several pages hit HA and PIH auctions), Heritage has offered just 6 panel pages from the Wrightson run with 3 of them not showing ST at all. 

Whether intentional or not, I do recognize a few themes in my collection which generally favors periods when I read comics the most (1972-78, 1984-87 and 1992-94). 

For covers and splashes, I prefer full-figure images and don't mind "static" poses as opposed to "in action"..,.key themes include: (1) images used for merchandising, posters or ads; (2) 'energy rays' extending to the edge; (3) prominent New York City skyline or buildings and (4) homage covers by modern artists that I appreciate but perhaps less familiar with their work. 

For interior pages, my themes are (5) origin recaps, (6) catch phrases and (7) transformation or costume change panels.   Oh, and I like "time sequence" images with multiple drawings (ie, Flash running, Daredevil flipping, Superman flying, etc.).

I always welcome shared insights and opinions whether aligned or in contrast with my own.  A price guide for what ultimately are one-of-a-kind items is unrealistic.  Rather, I believe there is value in exploring perceived A-level page values by popular artists/runs derived from collective experience and market data to serve as a helpful resource. I can think of several reasons including:

(1)  Relative values.  The tiering approach (as Lago32 introduced in 2014) aims to provide high-level groupings of artist/runs with perceived similar values.  It is not a proxy for demand, scarcity or even desirability.  Naturally, there are other factors (characters, content, aesthetics, nostalgia, etc.) that affect personal interest and value for every collector.  This list offers relative value tiers that I find useful for budgeting (want list), auctions (price expectations) and sizing up potential transactions.

(2)  Breadth.  The diversity of art across ages, genres, artists, titles, publishers, etc. is staggering to me, and most collectors only develop specialized knowledge/focus in a few areas....but still want to understand market dynamics in other areas.  This list brings together view points across many titles and artists that I won't necessarily follow in detail.  Personally, I like having a quick reference sheet for future deals and/or knowing that recent auction results for say Jones Sandman or Tradd Moore SSB "blew the lid off" its assigned tier implying it's an A+  or otherwise noteworthy example to check out.

(3)  Collective input.   True consensus is impossible but the list does reflect collective and voluntary (if not democratic) input.  I know Hari, Gene, Scott and as experienced collectors that bring valuable perspective and applaud them for taking initiative to update the list and coordinate input from others.  I don't see anything self-serving and rather encourage folks to advocate / debate if additional facts or first-hand experience suggest otherwise.  Input from dealers who speak to recent (and verifiable) sales rather than what's in inventory should be welcome...besides, there are so many hybrid collector-dealers or dealer-collectors these days.

(4)  Current perspective.   People already say "2020 values are obsolete", so other backward-looking references (HA archives, CAF Market Data) become even less useful.  As a steady and active buyer, I'm keen on market awareness to better inform my decision-making and price discipline, and this list does that along with direct input from fellow collectors.  Hopefully, this reference tool will be continually updated to ensure its relevance.

(5)  Trend lines.  Aside form the list itself, I enjoy looking at how perceived values for certain artists/runs have changed since the original 2014 list...what has increased or decreased more relative to others, even while the overall market values have risen.  For certain artists whose work spans different decades and titles, it helps to know how the market their work.  For example, BWS values have been volatile in recent years with Conan and Weapon X experiencing different trend lines.  So, what about his Avengers, Machine Man and X-Men pages?  It's this type of questions this list aims to inform.

Suffice it to say that I'm supportive of this and look forward to continued dialogue and constructive debate....it's the reason many of us joined this forum and post art to share and engage with other collectors.   

1 hour ago, Will_K said:

I like that idea.  Also, how about "flashcards".  Bill picks 5 pieces at random from CAF that have been there for 3 years or longer... and not for sale... and Bill does it "live".  Then Glen, Mike and Will must write down their "value" for each piece.  Then we go back and see how well they match.  Kind of like the "Newlywed Game" of comic art.  And then they do a "teardown" as well.

That’s a great idea?  Brings to mind two other possibilities for CAF ‘gladiator’ games...

1.  “Best Buys”.  Glen, Mike and Will each take an amount, say $100k, and 24 hours to create a “Best Buys” list of hypothetical purchases of currently available pieces—-  FS on CAF, BIN on eBay or pieces listed on dealer website (excluding their own of course).  Each presents what they would buy with the $100k and why, audience votes on who got the best haul.  Would be fascinating to see (1) what the experts consider ‘smart buys’ if they had to pay retail prices and (2) highlight FS items that deserve attention...and spur sales of noteworthy, well-priced items for sellers. 

2.  “Price is Right”.  Borrowing from our Chicago star chamber (Ron, Chris, Chris), Bill identifies 10 pieces from an upcoming auction...Mike, Glen and Will gives their estimates for the hammer prices of each lot...overall winner for combined hammer price for all 10 lots (ie, closest to the pin).  

Thoughts?

12 hours ago, O. said:

I did debate whether to bump Capullo Bats to the next bracket based on pieces sold from his site, but erred on the side of caution as there haven't been any $5k+ secondary sales AFAIK.

That said, I'm certainly open to bumping it up as there have been $4k+ sales. Although, the #32 page 9 discussed therein did drop back to $2.5k in September 2019.

 

My Capullo Bats 3 page with 1st app of Court of Owls is one of the high watermarks price-wise... before buying, I asked around to get a sense of market pricing.  I’m aware of 5 pages (3 bought directly from Capullo and 2 secondary sales) above $5k.  Early run (#1-12) get premium but majority of pages sell in the $2-4k range.  Hope that is helpful. 

A very cool Andy Warhol piece that I believe is based on a set of Superman Pop-Art silkscreens by Steve Kaufman (a former protege of Warhol). In turn, Kaufman based his art on a 1994 DC Style Guide cover art by Jose Luis Garcia-Lopez— which was also used for a Superman watch and other licensed merchandise.  Here are pics of the Kaufman silkscreen and DC watch:

The signed / numbered Warhol and Kaufman silkscreens are highly prized and exhibited in Pop and Modern art galleries.  This might be the ONLY instance in our hobby where published pieces sell for multiples of value compared to the original art—  I love the iconic image, especially in black and white  

CAF:  https://www.comicartfans.com/gallerypiece.asp?piece=1138710

I noticed ComicConnect had 15% Buyers Premium for a half dozen OA lots (mostly high-end stuff).  Seems like a new wrinkle as "No Buyers Premiums" was a key part of CC past marketing.  Maybe a test case for future CC auctions and/or a way to attract higher-end OA material, competing vs. Heritage (20% BP).  Not even sure if the 15% BP goes to consigner, CC or split.  I have no info, just trying to better understand the rationale. 

Question:  If CC does have 15% BPs for future auctions, will they be applied to high-end items or "select" consignors only?  If so, how is any BP better off for the consigner...theoretically, buyers factor BP into their total cost for bids placed so these lots have worse economics vs. regular consignments.  Heritage and ComicLink consistently apply the same BP (20% and 0% BP respectively) to all lots.  And what happened to the ASM 129 cover, moved to a future CC auction or perhaps sold privately? 

Any thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks

Really awesome, thanks for sharing!  It's a fantastic letter with unique, philosophical insights from a Marvel pioneer and legendary artist.  

True, it's a stretch to think anything considered worthless/throwaway today will have meaningful value  within a decade. 

One can imagine that 10 years from now people are collecting:
1.  Classic mobile-tech:  OEM Apple iPhone 1-11 valued/collected and traded like Air Jordan 1-20 shoes today

2.  MCU movie ticket stubs.  I remember going to theaters pre-Covid, we threw printed (and dated) stubs away.  A Deadpool 1 ticket stub just sold for $1k, and I heard someone found a mint Iron Man 1!

3.  Vegas casino chips.  We could have bought tons at face value back in 2020!  Now we all gamble virtually at eVegas.com  

4.  Music CDs.  Yes, I used to own boxes full of CDs but we tossed them all going digital/streaming.  

Pokemon newbie question:  Are values skyrocketing for mainline cards or only special/limited stuff like refractors and “trainers” etc?  Are values condition sensitive like CGC graded comics (ie, mint is worth 20x a normal used card) or like art where rarity is main driver not condition.   My son had about 600+ Pokemon cards (about 8-10 years ago)

1 hour ago, Michael Browning said:

I had been seeing Neal Adams pages and covers sell low over the last year, do these high sales mean the Adams market is back on the rise?

I hope so    Recent Heritage sales of Avengers 93 pages, a chapter splash ($31k) and Antman page ($20k), suggest a healthy uptick from the market even 2 years ago.   A fun litmus test is Avengers 93 p28 upcoming in Heritage's Jan 2021 auction...I'd compare with p24, a strikingly similar page which sold for $13k at Heritage in 2018.  I'm thinking 30-50% increase which would be a strong result.

Disclosure: I'm not to owner of either page and not planning to bid on the page 24..

9 hours ago, stinkininkin said:

I used to own that Green Lantern 76 page. I tried like hell to get $7500-8000 for it about 10 years ago, and no one wanted it. Finally traded it to a dealer. Now it sells for almost 21k. Hot, hot market.

Great page, I chased to 20k and regret not going higher.  On CAF, Will G had this one (posted 2016) and Richard Martines has 4 other GL76 pages (one is an Oath page ).  A rarity at auction in contrast to several Neal Adams Avengers pages in recent auctions.  I have a GL84 page (Wrightson inks) with GL76 and GL85 (heroin story) remaining on my want list.

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Steve is best known for his work on Nexus and other independent titles but he's also an accomplished painter.   I own this classical painting titled "Men and Venus" which also has a cool home video on YouTube showing him painting it with help from his young daughter (who takes a few brush strokes) while Steve gives seasoned tips for aspiring artists.  Lots of insights into Steve's unique artistry and background.  It's a fun and fairly inexpensive Steve Rude piece compared to published pieces but certainly one with tremendous appeal.   Steve provided the prelim shown in the video along with the final painting.  Enjoy!

YouTube link:  Steve Rude Painting in Progress - Mars and Venus