drotto

So much of what has been said on these boards was in there. Marvel is missing the target with it's demographics. It's ok for movies to have different appeal to different groups, and is almost impossible to appeal to all people. Marvel was purchase for it's male appeal, and precieved male weakness with the Disney brand, and then turned female. Film studios can think about message, but they have to make a film that makes money. You can't let the message come before plot. Movies need to be more balanced, and were becoming thr M-SHE-U (I almost spit out my drink when she mentioned this). Makes her seem very disingenuous before (as well as other reviewers). Why come clean now, this seemed like an honest assement, and not cheerleaders.

Is this a Mea Culpa, are the Disney MCU cheer leaders finally getting it?

Yes, the article does say the movie was fully shot and in post production. It had a really poor test screening and is now getting several months of reshoots. Makes you really wonder what is in it.

Look at that Captian America 4 to get extensive reshoots and February release date. https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/report-captain-america-brave-world-025313285.html

But has Feige lost his touch. That is worth discussion. He has been the almost sole driving force behind thr current film. Remember, the Marvels director said this was his film, not hers. Also, many directors have suggested this lately. Similar issues where reported with the Eternals where the director could not direct action, so they hired help. The Russo brother were very influential and know how to direct. They were the last directors to have major impact and control over their MCU project.

To me the most telling is comparing the top critic reviews to the all critic reviews. There is a massive discrepancy. It almost like they use those other critics to pad the numbers. Also the verified fan reviews number often get "stuck". The number also appears surprisingly low (and shifts around) for a wife release tentacle fil..

Yes, Feige has been successful, but you can not ignor the contributions Favreau and even Purllmutter made to the MCU especially during phases 1 and 2. There was also the story group during the earlier stages. The style of story, writing, and direction has changed dramatically since they were pushed out. Remember Iron Man was all Favreau, and that was the foundation for the MCU. I think it would be difficult to replace Feige, but it is not impossible. He at least needs to bring the story group back, and get some help.if phases 4 and 5 arw and indication he could just be stretched thin, may have list his touch, or maybe always needed others help.

Not really, Captian America 4 just a few weeks ago was bumped up because it was the closest to being ready. Now it has been pushed way back. Sorry, to me that means teshoots and rewrites are coming.

The cental point in the ven diagram of football fans, demographics that this film is targeted at, and people determined to see this opening night is very small.

Any bets if the 2025 films even get made at this point? Oh, sorry they will. They will fix them in post.

And now Deadpool 3 is reported to be the only MCU film releasing in 2024.

Ok a few of those have been inexplicably bullet proof also.

Just think of the implication of these numbers. Say this movie is now looking at $300 to $350M in world wide box office? That would put it at 65% to 70% less box office then Capitan Marvel. Now figure inflation into those number in relation to the number of tickets actually sold. With 30% inflation in addition to the box office drop, this movie has potentially 80% lower actual ticket sales. That means this movie has potentially lost 80% of the audience from the original film. WOW. Any producer not named Feige, would be fired next week. Take that to the broader discussion here about the MCU and Disney trying to find and cultivate a new audience over the last 5 years. It has been an absolute failure. Many people and outlets have called fans criticizing this direction an assortment of awful things in defense of the changes that have been made. Given the size of the audience at the peak, that would mean massive swaths of the general population must also fall into those categories. It implies that the bulk of original MCU fans are bad people, and we live in a truly horrible society given how many people that encompasses. I personally do not believe that is the case for the bulk of the fanbase. We are passionate fans, that love the material, and want it to succeed.

The problem with that is that same day streaming does not make the same money as going to theaters. You could have 20 friends watch that film for that $30. Now that same 20 people goes to a theater and spends $15 each, that is a massive difference. The streaming model and its failure to generate consistent profits, means that studios would need to adjust budgets and expectations downward. I still like going to theaters occasionally, just like i love going to concerts. There is a certain energy and communal and cultural experience that can not be replicated from home.

Everything does go in cycles, and done well on a smaller budget with reasonable expectations, and the MCU could be revived and be solid for years. As an example, the Yellowsrone universe, for lack of a better thing to call it. Now you could argue that is quickly becoming to much also, but it is proving that westerns, well written, and with good characters, are still viable.

Yes, this was a horrible lose, and a massive hit to their plans such as they were. But it also goes back to something that has been discussed before. Do the actors "own" the character or are they playing a part and can be replaced when needed. The MCU seems to favor the one role one actor approach thus far, but Hulk, Spider-Man, War Machine, and now reportedly Ross have been recast. For the longevity of the MCU really needs to be more open to recasting. Technically, they are about to enter a massive round of recasting with Fantastic Four and thr X-Men.

I do not think most of these shows were intended as limited series. I think their internal numbers were so bad, they called them that to save face so the press would not report them as cancelled. Yes, I had heard they are finally hiring showrunners. Again, really a bit too late after the hit to their reputation, and amount of money wasted. Again, I wonder what thought process lead to these decisions in the first place. Sometimes everyone does something a certain way, because it works. Feige just decided the throw all that out, and those about him said sure.

I think the main problem is that after Endgame they really did not have a plan, and it really was the first time when Feige was totally on his own. Remember, Perlmutter and to and extent Favreau were a significant part in the planning the MCU up to and including Endgame. I am not sure how you can even argue that COVID has effected the MCU, it may have forced some changes, but it did not slow releases. Despite the shutdowns, they continued to roll out 2 or 3 movie per year, as well as the streaming shows. Phase 4 was the largest phase of the MCU based on the number of projects released. The first 3 phases took 12 years, we are now in phase 5 after only 4 years. That is not a slower pace, if anything they accelerated the pace. Thus them slowly realizing they need to slow down and not just keep rushing through. I will however agree that Feige is incompetent when it comes to series. The primary issue with the shows (and to a large extent the movies) is they are ignoring the tried and true way of making a series. Do a pilot. Figure out what works and does not work based on the pilot. Outline the season plot. Get your SCRIPTS WRITTEN AND NAILED DOWN. Start filming. Instead, they start shooting what what amounts to a glorified outline, that is continually being tweaked and reworked as they go. If they get into post and something does now work, they go back to filing pickup scenes, which are often extensive. They then go back into post and try and patchwork everything together. They need to stop thinking everything can be fixed in post!!! Writing is the foundation, and everything after will fail if that is not sound. I am not sure how they lost sight of that. That is why the end results is often disjointed, with tonal issues, plot holes, and long dull expository scenes shot cheaply to try to patch up the problems. I also agree that the approach to phase 4 should have been very different, but it is easy to say that in hindsight, and when we have no say over the decisions that Disney makes. They should probably have pulled way back on content after Endgame, and maybe have taken 2 or 3 years off. Then started to build again from almost the ground up, similar to what was done in Phases 1 and 2. Bring in the Fantastic Four. Bring in the X-Men. You know that these characters are popular, fans want to see them, and have shown they can work on film (Ok maybe just the X-Men on that one). The reliance on new characters, and characters with a poor record in the comics in was a baffling decision, but again maybe just arrogance that they could make anything works after their unprecedented success. They basically tried to do the movie version of the Marvel Now initiative circa 2016 in the comics, which also failed miserably.

Unfortunately, in the pursuit of a new audience, they lost far more fans then they gained. They already had the largest movie franchise ever. They already had a massive and diverse fanbase. After all the movies leading up to Endgame, I would argue they had already captured virtually everyone that would be interested in this type of entertainment. They made a significant miscalculation that there was a massive untapped pool of fans, if they just made certain changes. In reality, that pool of people either does not exist, or is relatively small. In addition, they thought existing fans would except the changes without question, because it was Marvel and they had banked a massive amount of goodwill. I think this arrogance also extended to the series. The fans will watch because it is the MCU, and therefor they could have even more interconnectivity, and pump out and endless stream of content. Again, they are learning the hard way that most casual fans (and many previous hard core fans) are not watching the streaming shows, as shown by the low and declining ratings. Which has created a new level of problems.

I agree that all people should have an opportunity to have a movie where they see themselves on screen, and that many groups were vastly under represented in the past. Now part of that was wrong, and part was related to the shifting demographics of the country as well as changing values. We live in a different world then 50 years ago. I also firmly agree that people are capable of liking and relating to characters that do not share superficial characteristics. That we can relate to characters on a much deeper and more meaningful level, but that requires good writing, and developing these characters on a deeper level. You do not correct the wrong by completely eliminating certain groups from the equation because they were clearly over represented in the past. So, how does this relate to what is happening in the MCU right now? Marvel and Star Wars were purchased by Disney primarily to strengthen their position in the market with relation to men and more specifically boys. They were viewed as a girl brand known primarily for their princesses (not saying all girls like princesses, or all boys like superheroes). These properties were intended to compensate for that. It was a smart finical move that would greatly improve their fan base from a demographic standpoint. So how does it make sense that they are taking boy oriented brands and essentially turning them into female oriented brands? This bring Disney back to the problem they had 20 years ago, what content is being made for little boys if you take their traditional properties away? If it is essential that little girls see themselves represented on screen, is that not also important for boys?

Possible best movie review headline ever. https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/film/review/2023/11/08/the-marvels-review-the-marvel-cinematic-universe-disappears-up-its-own-black-hole/

Stating off with a strong RT of 55% and MC of 51.

Most say the interactions between the main characters is ok to good. The rest if the film is a dumpster fire.

Can only speak for myself. The MCU though Endgame is solid good to great entertainment. It was very high quality, well thought out, and some of my favorite movies of all time. I have seen most of them multiple times, and they are my comic dreams come true. After Endgame, I personally saw a drop in quality across the board, writing, characterization, stories, visuals, etc. It was subtle at first, and there have been a few bright spots. I liked parts of WandaVision, parts of Loki season 1, and loved Spider-Man. But, more often then not, I became either indifferent to what I was seeing, or was disappointed. The MCU had lost focus, dropped in quality, and lost the magic. I still want it to get back to what it was, and hope that it will. So how does this relate to "hoping for failure"? At this point the trailers and everything I have seen about this film seem to indicate it is a post Engame MCU film and suffers from what I view as the same deficiencies. With little power to reverse this trend, all I can do is hope for failure, so the management at Disney is forced to re-evaluate and change course. They need to hit rock bottom, which means having financial flops. This film is just the next prospect for this to happen, and hopeful the MCU finally realizing what they are doing is not working, and not financially viable. So with failure, hopefully there can be rebirth. I am also not going to spend money blindly supporting something I no longer find entertaining in its current state.