drotto

On 11/13/2023 at 7:55 AM, Bosco685 said:

Wow! Has she gone back to making sense again?

So much of what has been said on these boards was in there.  Marvel is missing the target with it's demographics. It's ok for movies to have different appeal to different groups, and is almost impossible to appeal to all people.  Marvel was purchase for it's male appeal, and precieved male weakness with the Disney brand, and then turned female. Film studios can think about message, but they have to make a film that makes money. You can't let the message come before plot. Movies need to be more balanced, and were becoming thr M-SHE-U (I almost spit out my drink when she mentioned this).

Makes her seem very disingenuous before (as well as other reviewers).  Why come clean now, this seemed like an honest assement, and not cheerleaders. 

Is this a Mea Culpa, are the Disney MCU cheer leaders finally getting it?

On 11/11/2023 at 5:12 PM, Bosco685 said:

Yup.

 

Yes, the article does say the movie was fully shot and in post production. It had a really poor test screening and is now getting several months of reshoots.  Makes you really wonder what is in it.

Look at that Captian America 4 to get extensive reshoots and  February release date.

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/report-captain-america-brave-world-025313285.html

On 11/11/2023 at 11:28 AM, fantastic_four said:

Favreau did great.  Nolan did great, too.  But not everybody is a Favreau, and even Favreau isn't always as good as Favreau sometimes is.  He's up and down.

The problem with most studio execs is that they have no real talent at writing, and they don't know much about the content.  EVERY exec has been like that with two exceptions--Feige, and Geoff Johns.  Maybe one of the other short-lived DC Films execs too, I forget who has had that job right now.  Avi Arad is the most vivid example of this kind of typical exec--he had no idea what would work, he just hired the best director or screenwriter and hoped they would figure it out.  Arad seemed to have almost no sense for content continuity across directors at all like Feige has had.

Perlmutter is a much longer discussion, and I think we have another thread for that.  I'd love to return to it though because I LOVED the concept of his Marvel Creative Committee because it seemed like it would solve the exact issue I just described--Perlmutter knew he didn't know how to guide Marvel's films, so he tasked Marvel's best creatives with doing it for him.  I loved that idea from the start, and I'm STILL not sure why it ended up failing.  I'd love to explore it in more depth though because I still think that would be better than anything DC has tried to date, i.e. a creative committee consisting of DC's best creative talent from the comics.

But has Feige lost his touch.  That is worth discussion.  He has been the almost sole driving force behind thr current film.  Remember, the Marvels director said this was his film, not hers. Also, many directors have suggested this lately.  Similar issues where reported with the Eternals where the director could not direct action, so they hired help.

The Russo brother were very influential and know how to direct.  They were the last directors to have major impact and control over their MCU project.

On 11/11/2023 at 11:21 AM, Bosco685 said:

Fandango is the parent company of Rotten Tomatoes. Fandango is a movie theater ticket outlet that does over $80M/annually in sales. One of the larger studios aligned with Fandango is Disney. Paul Yanover (recently former CEO of Fandango) was a long-time Disney executive.

But the rumors of audience score manipulation is probably fantasy. No way a critic aggregation site would allow such things to drive ticket sales.

To me the most telling is comparing the top critic reviews to the all critic reviews.  There is a massive discrepancy.  It almost like they use those other critics to pad the numbers.

Also the verified fan reviews number often get "stuck".  The number also appears surprisingly low (and shifts around) for a wife release tentacle fil..

On 11/11/2023 at 11:06 AM, fantastic_four said:

So fire the only guy who's ever done what he's done.  The guy Warner Brothers has been searching for their own version of for almost two decades without success.  I had high hopes that Geoff Johns would be that guy, but I was skeptical from the start--with good reason, it turned out.  Creative types like him usually get frustrated with the business aspect of films after a while when they're relatively young like he was, so I wasn't at all surprised when he stepped down.  They never fully gave him control anyway, so I'm still not sure who to blame that on.

So, fire a one of one dude in Feige and replace him with...who?    Ideally it will be a superfan without writing or art creds like Feige has always been.  There was never any danger that Feige would go back to writing or drawing because he didn't have skill at that to even fall back on it like a Geoff Johns did.  That's Kathleen Kennedy's problem--she's a stellar producer, but she is NOT a content curator, nor does she appear to have much of an instinct for how to curate content and Star Wars has suffered for it.  I'm guessing Kennedy has never known who Figrin D'an is, and that's who they need curating their content--a superfan.  Pablo Hidalgo and Dave Filoni are superfans, but both are also writers so they're not ideal candidates.  They're still both the best candidates to have creative control over that content, but neither has really been given that control to date so who knows how they'd do.  

Yes, Feige has been successful, but you can not ignor the contributions Favreau and even Purllmutter made to the MCU especially during phases 1 and 2.  There was also the story group during the earlier stages. The style of story, writing, and direction has changed dramatically since they were pushed out.  Remember Iron Man was all Favreau, and that was the foundation for the MCU.

I think it would be difficult to replace Feige, but it is not impossible. He at least needs to bring the story group back, and get some help.if phases 4 and 5 arw and indication he could just be stretched thin, may have list his touch, or maybe always needed others help.

On 11/10/2023 at 4:04 PM, jsilverjanet said:

i think this might be more due to the writers strike than a strategic change

Not really, Captian America 4 just a few weeks ago was bumped up because it was the closest to being ready. Now it has been pushed way back. Sorry,  to me that means teshoots and rewrites are coming.

On 11/10/2023 at 2:34 PM, Straw-Man said:

as to the low thurs nite numbers, i don't think y'all are taking into account that big bears/panthers game; how could anyone leave their house with that on?

The cental point in the ven diagram of football fans, demographics that this film is targeted at, and people determined to see this opening night is very small.

On 11/9/2023 at 8:17 PM, Bosco685 said:

 

Any bets if the 2025 films even get made at this point? Oh, sorry they will.  They will fix them in post. 

On 11/10/2023 at 1:27 PM, Bosco685 said:

On 11/10/2023 at 1:05 PM, Bosco685 said:

Deadpool was a classic example where being at the theater made it even more of a fun experience. People were losing their minds over the wild jokes.

And now Deadpool 3 is reported to be the only MCU film releasing in 2024.

On 11/10/2023 at 1:11 PM, fantastic_four said:

David Heyman, Kathleen Kennedy, Jerry Bruckheimer, Neal Moritz, and Frank Marshall are not amused.  

Ok a few of those have been inexplicably bullet proof also.

On 11/10/2023 at 10:59 AM, paperheart said:

via Deadline: : Marvel Studios‘ sequel, The Marvels, has clocked around $6.5M in Thursday night previews we hear from sources. Disney will be reporting their official figure this morning and we’ll update you then.

If accurate, based on recent multiples for MCU of 6-7x preview night for opening weekend, could be looking at disastrous $40-45M. Would be lowest MCU ever ($55M IH) and lower than $61M opening day for CM. #fireFeige

Just think of the implication of these numbers.  Say this movie is now looking at $300 to $350M in world wide box office?  That would put it at 65% to 70% less box office then Capitan Marvel. Now figure inflation into those number in relation to the number of tickets actually sold. With 30% inflation in addition to the box office drop, this movie has potentially 80% lower actual ticket sales.  That means this movie has potentially lost 80% of the audience from the original film. WOW.

Any producer not named Feige, would be fired next week. 

Take that to the broader discussion here about the MCU and Disney trying to find and cultivate a new audience over the last 5 years. It has been an absolute failure.  Many people and outlets have called fans criticizing this direction an assortment of awful things in defense of the changes that have been made. Given the size of the audience at the peak, that would mean massive swaths of the general population must also fall into those categories. It implies that the bulk of original MCU fans are bad people, and we live in a truly horrible society given how many people that encompasses.  I personally do not believe that is the case for the bulk of the fanbase. We are passionate fans, that love the material, and want it to succeed.   

On 11/10/2023 at 11:54 AM, Dr. Balls said:

I wish these guys would get on the same-day streaming bandwagon. I'd pay $20-$30 to watch this at home. Same thing with the upcoming Napoleon. I'm just not going to the theater again, and I know I'm not the only person I know who feels that way. It's just a different world now - going to the movies is not the event it once was.

The problem with that is that same day streaming does not make the same money as going to theaters.  You could have 20 friends watch that film for that $30. Now that same 20 people goes to a theater and spends $15 each, that is a massive difference. The streaming model and its failure to generate consistent profits, means that studios would need to adjust budgets and expectations downward. 

I still like going to theaters occasionally, just like i love going to concerts.  There is a certain energy and communal and cultural experience that can not be replicated from home.

On 11/10/2023 at 9:50 AM, Mr Sneeze said:

Super hero movie fatigue. No genre lasts indefinitely. 

Wether you like/dislike them or they are awesome or not, general audiences are moving on with only fans remaining imho.

Disney, Warner, Sony etc should focus on providing a product to their remaining audience that is cost effective and profitable, i.e. lower budgets, better movies or TV shows and most importantly, realistic expectations.

Personally, I wish there was more animation.

Everything does go in cycles, and done well on a smaller budget with reasonable expectations,  and the MCU could be revived and be solid for years.

As an example, the Yellowsrone universe, for lack of a better thing to call it.  Now you could argue that is quickly becoming to much also, but it is proving that westerns, well written, and with good characters, are still viable.

On 11/10/2023 at 8:17 AM, The humble Watcher lurking said:

Another huge loss was losing him.

 

I heard a lot of rumors he would have led The Avengers in future movies. Terrible lost. 

Yes, this was a horrible lose, and a massive hit to their plans such as they were.  But it also goes back to something that has been discussed before.  Do the actors "own" the character or are they playing a part and can be replaced when needed.  The MCU seems to favor the one role one actor approach thus far, but Hulk, Spider-Man, War Machine, and now reportedly Ross have been recast. For the longevity of the MCU really needs to be more open to recasting. Technically, they are about to enter a massive round of recasting with Fantastic Four and thr X-Men.

On 11/10/2023 at 6:10 AM, Bosco685 said:

Why they are now changing their streaming series approach moving forward. Including - hold on to your hats - hiring showrunners like traditional TV shows.

 

I do not think most of these shows were intended as limited series. I think their internal numbers were so bad, they called them that to save face so the press would not report them as cancelled.  

Yes, I had heard they are finally hiring showrunners.  Again, really a bit too late after the hit to their reputation, and amount of money wasted. Again, I wonder what thought process lead to these decisions in the first place. Sometimes everyone does something a certain way, because it works. Feige just decided the throw all that out, and those about him said sure.

On 11/9/2023 at 10:21 PM, fantastic_four said:

This thread is teetering on the brink of getting locked.

Feige's main problem with the films since Endgame has been twofold--he got severely derailed by Covid which lengthened phases 4 and 5 too much and delayed FF and X-Men, and he rested on his laurels from the Infinity Saga and decided to try to establish C and D list characters without anchoring the phases with more top-tier characters.  We would have been on to phase 6 by now and wouldn't be lingering so long on the lack of top-tier characters in phase 4 and 5, but Covid dragged them both out another 1.5 to 2 years which is really accentuating the lack of more compelling characters.

His other problem has been trying to tackle Disney Plus series.  He knows films, but wow, he does not know how to make great serial television shows.  Virtually every one is like a 2-hour movie padded out to 6 to 10 hours.  They're all pretty mediocre.

I think the main problem is that after Endgame they really did not have a plan, and it really was the first time when Feige was totally on his own. Remember, Perlmutter and to and extent Favreau were a significant part in the planning the MCU up to and including Endgame. I am not sure how you can even argue that COVID has effected the MCU, it may have forced some changes, but it did not slow releases. Despite the shutdowns, they continued to roll out 2 or 3 movie per year, as well as the streaming shows.  Phase 4 was the largest phase of the MCU based on the number of projects released. The first 3 phases took 12 years, we are now in phase 5 after only 4 years. That is not a slower pace, if anything they accelerated the pace.  Thus them slowly realizing they need to slow down and not just keep rushing through.

I will however agree that Feige is incompetent when it comes to series. The primary issue with the shows (and to a large extent the movies) is they are ignoring the tried and true way of making a series.  Do a pilot.  Figure out what works and does not work based on the pilot.  Outline the season plot.  Get your SCRIPTS WRITTEN AND NAILED DOWN.  Start filming. Instead, they start shooting what what amounts to a glorified outline, that is continually being tweaked and reworked as they go. If they get into post and something does now work, they go back to filing pickup scenes, which are often extensive.  They then go back into post and try and patchwork everything together.  They need to stop thinking everything can be fixed in post!!!  Writing is the foundation, and everything after will fail if that is not sound.  I am not sure how they lost sight of that. That is why the end results is often disjointed, with tonal issues, plot holes, and long dull expository scenes shot cheaply to try to patch up the problems. 

I also agree that the approach to phase 4 should have been very different, but it is easy to say that in hindsight, and when we have no say over the decisions that Disney makes.  They should probably have pulled way back on content after Endgame, and maybe have taken 2 or 3 years off.  Then started to build again from almost the ground up, similar to what was done in Phases 1 and 2.  Bring in the Fantastic Four.  Bring in the X-Men.  You know that these characters are popular,  fans want to see them, and have shown they can work on film (Ok maybe just the X-Men on that one).  The reliance on new characters, and characters with a poor record in the comics in was a baffling decision, but again maybe just arrogance that they could make anything works after their unprecedented success.  They basically tried to do the movie version of the Marvel Now initiative circa 2016 in the comics, which also failed miserably. 

Stating off with a strong RT of 55% and MC of 51.

On 11/8/2023 at 12:41 PM, Ken Aldred said:

I’ve been reading some of the ‘just watched it’ reviews on YouTube.

They’re not good.

Most say the interactions between the main characters is ok to good.  The rest if the film is a dumpster fire.