drotto

On 12/27/2023 at 1:08 PM, Steven Valdez said:

And that's where the headlines are going to come in.

I have a few coins in slabs from the sister division, and my kids have a few cards. Should look at them later.

On 12/27/2023 at 12:57 PM, MatterEaterLad said:

Um...so do you think this is also happening with Voldy's slabs? This could be widespread across the grading industry.

Not sure about that, but I bet it crosses over to the slabs for cards and maybe coins. So this does go beyond comics.

Combine the opening method in the video with a set of these from Amazon, and the chance of damaging the case goes way down.  I have used these to replace a radio in a car dashboard and they work as advertised. 

On 12/26/2023 at 9:43 PM, BigLeagueCHEW said:

I think CGC has the entire list of affected books submitted by this Bree, Brees, whatever their name is. Every submission has all the certs. Not sure if they will disclose this, or just suck it up and change the way reholder service is done on a more strict standard. 

More likely reholder will be eliminated and replaced with regrade and reholder at a slight discount price from primary grading.  Say 10% to 20%

On 12/26/2023 at 1:36 PM, ChillMan said:

You don't see the difference in the media??  LOL

Yes, there is a difference.  The media seemes much more interest in promoting, protecting, and deflecting criticism of the Marvels.  With that said, how much of that is that Aquaman 2 has had a full year of negative press, and the performance is just seen as inevitable, so they have no need or desire to defend it.  In addition DCEU to a large extent has already been written off as a failure.  They are just now coming to terms with the decline in the MCU, which was a media darling.

On 12/26/2023 at 1:02 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

Gift grade or switcheroo?   The question we’ll all be asking going forward….

Just look at picture of my copy, which is a 8.5 in the old case.  Yeah, despite a bad wrap, looks Way better then this one. (Considers mine for CPR).

On 12/26/2023 at 12:55 PM, sledgehammer said:

https://www.comiclink.com/itemdetail.asp?back=%2Fcgcitems.asp%3Fid%3D3884%26Graded%3D%26x%3D0%26y%3D0%26pg%3D9&id=1664031

Photos are not the best, but that spine is rough, especially on the back. Again could be a gift 9.0, but really looks like about a 7.5 to 8.0 to me.

On 12/26/2023 at 12:28 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

What about trimmed books? 

The books found still seem to be bronze and copper age books.  Trimmed seems to be a much bigger issue in SA books, but I could be wrong. But it is another items that seem likely to go un-noticed with swapping.

On 12/26/2023 at 10:48 AM, THE_BEYONDER said:

 

I know.  Was a Raw MJ NM98.  Not seeing who listed it.

Should we follow this auction to see where it ends up?  Apparently, this is already a sold then relisted item, then pulled.

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/176130433379

When the Creep Engin slab issue was going on how long was it until CGC acknowledged the issue?  I seem to remember a lengthy thread detailing the issues, initially some denials, then they admitted to it and corrected the problem. 

On 12/24/2023 at 6:12 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

And cgc reholders person not being a grader, not wanting to admit culpability or offer compensation for down grade, or just for whatever reason is going ahead with the recasing

Graders likely never see reholders.  Random employee opens it, sees no obvious damage, creates a new label,  puts it in the new case, off to the sealer it goes.

On 12/24/2023 at 11:24 AM, migmtl76 said:

As this person knows he is being investigated, he will surely move ASAP.

Doubt it, there are ways to get other people to do mailings, or even get a PO box in a deferent zip code.

On 12/24/2023 at 9:47 AM, comicwiz said:

The cert conventions used by CGC are above my pay grade, although I feel like we might be able to learn a thing or two by examining patterns. Good call, as I just noticed that myself. 

Cert numbers can be thrown off a bit by conventions. The forms filled out online are sequential by when they are generated.  At conventions, CGC will still use hand filled out pre-printed submission forms.  Not sure how those forms numbers fall in line with the numbers generated online.  You also have to remember when people submit books for a press, the pressors will have clients generate the submission forms under their accounts, and it may be weeks or even moths before these forms hit CGC.  The numbers will still always go up, but the exact sequence will be interrupted. 

On 12/23/2023 at 10:38 PM, drotto said:

I think the swapped books fraud is actually far easier to execute, lower skill, and given the loophole is easier than trying to marry pages.  He has found a method that works well.  i see no reason he would try something different.

Another thing.  The swap give him two (maybe more) high grade books to sell.  With they Marry pages there is one good book, and one sacrificial or low grade qualified book.  Far more money in the swap method.

On 12/23/2023 at 10:03 PM, Nick Furious said:

It was.  I wanted to hear why we know it wasn't just the same re-holder scam as all the others.  But he just said that it was likely a marriage scam rather than a re-holder scam because we can't find where that cert number was sold previously.  That proves nothing.  It's a pretty big leap from re-holder scam to married pages scam.  The cost is far greater, and the likeliness of success in changing the label from green to blue is far lower.   

I think the swapped books fraud is actually far easier to execute, lower skill, and given the loophole is easier than trying to marry pages.  He has found a method that works well.  i see no reason he would try something different.

On 12/23/2023 at 7:38 PM, agamoto said:

This is the way forward... A pair of thin NFC tags that also incorporate q-codes. Cost per application can be less than a buck. One sticker adhered to inner well, one for the paper label. You can scan the slab with an iphone and verify the inner well and label match. 

RFID chips are another cheap alternative.  If they can afford to put those in every credit card and Comicon badge, they can stick one to the back of labels. 

On 12/23/2023 at 7:45 PM, agamoto said:

My perspective is that it's a hell of a loophole, and the only reason this guy got caught is because he got greedy and tried his trick with a very high profile book that subject matter experts would have had their eyes peeled to. Greed got the best of him. Had he stuck to Hulk 181's, Secret Wars 8's, New Mutants 98's and ASM 300's, he likely never would have been caught. Where there is smoke, there is fire. There is undoubtedly others out there who have been pulling the same trick who just weren't dumb enough to leave as many identifiable fingerprints behind. Instead, he left a crumb trail of poor grammar and writing that revealed questionable activity for over 12 years. The other thing is how often this guy resold the same books, how the hell did eBay not recognize the obvious fraud going on there?

Agree, he got caught when he tried a book that has 4 to 5 times the value of its more common variant with the MJ insert. I think he worked his way up with things like the MVS, and the newstand editions, once he got confident he started going for the rarer and bigger money stuff.

As for how eBay missed it is because they were not looking.  They get thousands of new listings every day, so it is very easy to get things past.  Only once multiple bad reviews start piling up do they take notice.

On 12/23/2023 at 6:56 PM, bc said:

Don't understand why we want them stamping id#'s anywhere near our books with an industrial machine? They purchase the cases from a supplier and shove a comic and a label on it. Trying to keep track of the entire chain of custody, while a noble idea, is highly impractical for our cherished collectibles. 

Might as well ask them to install a wood chipper near the receiving department to process the excess shipping material.

-bc

Laser etching would do the trick.  Cheap, fast, and if set up correctly would have no effect on the book. 

On 12/23/2023 at 6:09 PM, Lightning55 said:

 

We've all "concluded" that he removed the original 9.8. But if he was able to cleanly remove the label only from the original legit 9.8, and substitute it for the scam comic's label in that slab, he would now have the legit label with the scam comic. Same as swapping the inner wells. The labels are right at the top, easier to get to. The plastic outer holders are probably identical, so impossible to say which inner parts went where.

Maybe all 3 parts have to have the cert# lasered on. Like cars have VINs in several key places, some locations known only to the manufacturer and law enforcement.

And reholders get all new numbers, with a reference on the registry page to the retired number, for a paper trail. 

Seems reasonable that the certificate number should be on all parts of the case, so label, top and bottom of outer case and inner well. So, it would need to be 4 times.

On 12/23/2023 at 5:25 PM, Lightning55 said:

I don't think that CGC ever stated that they open inner wells to reholder. Someone posted the blurb from the website earlier, maybe twice. It only talks about the grade not changing if there is no obvious reason for it to change. Nothing about the process.

Yes, it specifically says comics will only be regraded if damage it obvious.  We also know that the other criteria is that the inner well can not be removable from the outer case, or it will be subject to regrade. This makes me fairly confident what is happening here.  I personally think the comic in the inner well is being transferred, as the bigger well seems to be easier to manipulate without completely destroying the case. There is just more play to work with. I think whatever method is being used to open then case is causing damage to the outer case. Thus, the initial need to send the books back to CGC.  Even he he has found a perfect way to open them, this also insures he gets an authentic label, and has the chance to request changes to the label. This brings us to section two, that the comic can not be easily removed from the case, or it may be regraded.  Given the QC issues often discussed, how well is this being assessed? People have talked about needing sonic welders or a outright flaw in the anti tampering properties of the case.  I do no think this is needed.  All he needs to do is get that comic to not easily slide out.  So all he needs is glue or adhesive that keeps the inner well in the outer case and is not obvious.  This may be easy to miss since the case is being sent in as broken anyway. Seems a few drops on a broken corner would more then do this job, and covered up by the damage to the plastic. Then it will pass the second criteria. 

This makes all of this a clever, but actually relatively low skill way to manipulate the system, once the reholder loophole was found. 

On 12/23/2023 at 2:51 PM, mephistopheles said:

The problem isn't that books are the same, the problem is that the CGC cert# on verifiably different books is the same.

Sorry, did not read every cert number.