drotto

On 12/23/2023 at 1:57 PM, jcjames said:

The JIM is clearly the same book, different cert#s. 

 

 

Be careful calling some of these books that are clearly the same, as all part of this swapping business.  Some of those may be CPR, and CGC considers those legitimate.  Just most people forget the have CGC remove old unused certs from the census.

On 12/23/2023 at 11:45 AM, Silver Surfer said:

Is there any way to tell from the cert numbers if a book has had a new holder put on it? If not that might be something that they should start track once they sort this out. 

CGC tracks it, the public does nit have access.

On 12/23/2023 at 11:21 AM, DC# said:

At least we know Mike is not on Holiday sabbatical.

Has likely been told to leave this thread alone until CGC has its official response, however long that takes.  As long as there are no violations in the personal  conduct guidelines of the forum in general.

On 12/23/2023 at 10:50 AM, Nick Furious said:

That thought has comforted me the entire length of this thread as well.  

Batman 181 seems like a prime candidate for this scam, with the missing pinup leading to qualified grades. 

Feel less comforted now?  

On 12/23/2023 at 1:13 AM, Steven Valdez said:

It's the same thing as your bank getting hacked and losing your money. They're liable for not having adequate security measures in place.

Plus, they present themselves as experts. So simple things like missing pages, missing MVS, restoration should not get past them.  In fact that is part of how they advertise the value of their service. They can garentee a book meets certain criteria. It is also why they say grading is somewhat subjective, to give themselves some wiggle room. Meaning one grade up or down roughly, not 3 or 4 off.  It is also why they allow pressing and dry cleaning, if they can not reliably pick it up they legally do not want to garentee it is not there.

On 12/23/2023 at 12:41 AM, William-James88 said:

I'm pretty sure that as far as they are concerned, this is just a comic in a 9.8 holder that doesn't look like a 9.8. However scammy way that may have happened, that's the end result. And that happens all the time and they never respond to that at a public level. It's basically buyer beware.

 

Until someone with deep pockets and 100k's worth of books takes them to court. You advertise as a grading expert that certifies books and condition, the law will treat you as an expert. 

I could also see a lawer bring a class action suit on the same basis.  This is the US, people love to sue, and we have lots of layers looking for work.

I can see tables of grading experts called as witnesses to argue over books in court.  Could be very entertaining.

On 12/22/2023 at 11:04 PM, Steven Valdez said:

Well, it would be better to have CGC do that for a more trustworthy result....

It needs to be done with the owner present with high level CGC people witnessing it. 

On 12/22/2023 at 10:36 PM, JC25427N said:

It's more of a "can", not "will". It's a possibility it will be regraded, not a certainty. 

Which I always read as if the inner well is completely intact and shows now signs of damage or tampering, they do not touch it. This is the exact loophole being exploited. So as long as the person in question maintains the inner well and the damage to the outer well does not look like tampering, CGC slaps a new label on it and into the new case it goes. This means the opening technique does not have to be perfect, it just can't look intentional. Heck, it may be as simple as CGC never thought somebody would be so brazen to do this, so they just never questioned it. Then it doe snot even matter how bad the outer case looks, as long as the inner well is OK. Then the submitter just puts into the request, please put the special label on it, and I think you missed an insert also, you can see it on the side. 

On 12/22/2023 at 10:16 AM, MyNameIsLegion said:

oh?

https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/21/style/raphael-madonna-della-rosa-ai-scli-intl-scn/index.html

yeah, while CGC is busy ignoring this thread, someone is thinking about how they can grade more,faster using AI. MCS will probably get their first because they are innovation minded but the first grading company to figure this out will disrupt the market in a way that poses the single biggest threat to CGC's dominance, much more than this little embarrassing thread. It's not a question of IF AI will will do grading of collectibles, but when. 3D objects objects are not an issue. That's been fairly routine for a decade. The last guy at CGC that might still have a job in 10 years, ironically enough as it pertains to this thread, is the mook reholdering books.

We have facial recognition, book "recognition" should in theory be no issue.  The only problem is how far back and how good are the scans that CGC has archived. Every book coming back to them could  in theory be checked by automatically. It would also be an interesting new twist for buyers to be able to confirm their own books. Hell CGC likes to make money on new revenue stream, make a photo book verification app.  Granted this would not have stopped some of this scam, since he has manage to get the "fake" books rescanned as the authentic one.  

On 12/21/2023 at 11:55 PM, Heronext said:

I have a suspect in mind.  Could be a Richard Jewell moment though

I speculate it is not someone within CGC, but is a person very well known to them, and they have a long standing relationship. So there is a level of trust, and things are expediated for them. They know how CGC works, and the know where the weak spots are. I think it is likely this individual has 100's if not 1000's of submissions over the years. 

On 12/21/2023 at 11:40 PM, Every Day A Story said:

Even more shenigans, just how deep does this rabbit hole go?

...the question is...

...where is CGC?

Yes, it now looks like the same person is pulling multiple types of scams. He has been found out, but not identified. I am sure there are more people out there. Unfortunately, even though CGC is essentially getting scammed also, they are presenting themselves as the authority here, so it becomes their responsibility to tighten up book security. It is also reasonable to say they should not be missing some of the things there are.

On 12/21/2023 at 9:57 PM, Bo1983 said:

If there’s one then there’s thousands all ready out there I bet!

I also think there is a pattern where he is sticking to very common keys, with vary high census numbers, from the Bronze and Copper Ages.  Not only does this approach make it harder to track down what books were swapped, it makes easier to repeat.  Also it raises less suspicion.  H181 is so common I am sure CGC regularly receives multiple requests for re-holders so a small bump in requests would not raise any flags. If they started seeing many requests on books with a small census, questions may be asked why the sudden surge.  So I doubt this is happening in golden age books, just not enough out there.  Also slightly less common with silver age keys, again fewer out there.   

On 12/21/2023 at 9:42 PM, agamoto said:

Player 3 has entered the Hulk 181 Game... 

So, there's this book, certification # 426504003 Sold Oct 23 on eBay.

Thanks to Automatic Comics, we know the slab was actually from that 8.5 missing MVS copy. 

Here's where it gets especially strange. The seller of the above comic had ALREADY sold that same cert# book, twice. 

$9900 on Sep 14, 2023... Again, this book, the one that ended up reholdered and resold, had already been sold by the seller.

Not sure if anyone has pointed this out here, but here's the same cert slab, but totally different comic ALSO sold by the same seller.

This one was sold for $9995 on July 10, 2023. 

Is this guy selling to himself??? 

There's more! 

On Jul 26, 2023, he sold this one, different cert#

And this one, on July 17th, different Cert #

There's no way in hell that's a 9.0

There's more! 

He sold an 8.5 blue on Aug 14th

And another 8.5 custom blue on Jun 12

Oh, there's another from Oct 18, 2023 too.

I could keep going. This seller has moved this Hulk 15 times in the past 2 years.

My head is spinning.

I suspect these are a mix of original books that were purchased, the swapped copy, and possibly the regraded "legitimate" book. He is obviously doing the same basic thing multiple times. 

Ok, I know some people do not like some random forum person putting out random ideas, but here me out.  When you buy a computer or electronic device, the often put a sticker that reads if broken or tampered with warrantee will be void, across edges that can be opened. They could add this style sticker to the edge of slabs, and if that sticker is broken, the comic must be regraded to retain it's certificate number and grade. Simple, cheap, no need for a new slab.

On 12/21/2023 at 6:36 PM, RonS2112 said:

Seriously though, why?  There are those of us here with a minimal number of slabs for precisely this reason.  If you: a) are able to competently grade a book, and b) have a network of sellers you work with who can also competently grade and offer fair deals and c) you are able to work with these people to reach mutually agreeable deals on books, then there's no need for CGC or slabbed books.  So for those of us to whom this applies, this is all theater and will result in a great buying opportunity for a lot of the books in question.

1. It was clearly a joke and many people took it that way.

2. I have been buying, trading, and selling comics for 30 years, both raw and slabbed.  I am also a reasonably good grader. This is not experience or skills a new collector has.

3. Not all people have access to a network of dealers or friends that are honest and willing to work with them.  You are very lucky to have that. While obviously a flawed system, in theory third party graders should give buyers a degree of confidence buying from strangers online, where you can not truly handle and evaluate a book as easily. You can not ignor the trend of more commerce happening online. The places you can buy old comics in person is shrinking, and getting to shows is not always possible. 

4. Yes, slabs may invite certain investors and speculators into our space, that we do not want around.  But also gives the new, inexperienced collector that wants to enter our hobby an avenue to buy with increased confidence, and seeing graded books, learn what constitutes certain grades. Classic double edge sword. 

Worts and all third party grading has helped to expand and grow comic collecting in both number of people doing it, as well as the value of many people's collections.   Along with the growth of the internet, it has allowed me to see and acquire books I was never able to find locally, or at smaller shows.  While I love the personal hands on aspects of collecting, if third party grading did not exist, this already small hobby would shrink to almost nothing, and new blood would be almost non existent in the modern collecting world. Unfortunately, I think comic  collecting would die without it. Like it or not it has expanded to basically every type of collecting, and it is not going away.  We have to accept that, but also make sure that it does what it advertises it does. The existence of grading also does not stop anyone from just buying books. I view it as a necessary evil.  

On 12/21/2023 at 5:49 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

If a book can go from green to blue, I don’t see why the same scam couldn’t be used to turn purple labels into blue.

It can, that has been discussed, and is a big problem.  The thing is restoration to a trained eye, may be easier to spot even in the case, then what people have found so far.

On 12/21/2023 at 5:23 PM, apoptosis said:

I have been looking through this to make sure I don't have any of these books and noticed a few things I haven't seen mentioned (I haven't read every post, just a lot):

1) He has been double selling these on eBay, same cert# sold week apart.  Could be buyer didn't pay, or maybe he is shrill bidding...

 

2120143023	Sold 2023-11-21, 2023-12-05
4245731004	Sold 2023-10-19, 2023-10-31
4287881003	Sold 2023-10-17, 2023-11-14

 

2) Here are likely submissions made by seller.  If he just re-holdered a single book you can't tell but some of these he submitted for in a batch, I would also check any of these books if you have.

 

4286817001 through 4286817004

4310701001 through 4310701008

4324007001 through 4324007007

4329914001 through 4329914006

4341610001 through 4341610002

4343218001 through 4343218005

 

These certificate numbers would more likely be the legitimate resubmitted books. The swapped books retain the original certificate number, so there would be no spific order to the certificates. Remember, he is buying real blue labels, swapping in a lessor book, then getting those better books re-graded. 

The swapped books will be harder to track, but CGC should have a list of all books submitted for re-holder.  The buyers, have no access to this information. 

Really glad my H181 was bought from a local shop raw, and checked for the stamp. I later had it stabbed.  I can say at least mine is 100% accurate.

On 12/21/2023 at 4:50 PM, GDN said:

Spine ticks match also.  Like the ones above and below the "he's here" box

Ticks near Wolvies claw also line up exactly. I agree same book.

Is anyone willing to go to Sarasota and crack one of these books open in front of CGC witnesses, if the owner can be found?

On 12/21/2023 at 4:55 PM, LDarkseid1 said:

CPR?

 

Crack

Press

Regrade

On 12/21/2023 at 3:55 PM, skybolt said:

Unfortunately, half the grader notes I get from CGC make no sense (albeit for much cheaper books). I would agree that 9.6/9.8 candidates are the best for these shenanigans since they have no grader notes to compare to.

Which is why they are targeting higher graded copies with high value variants or know issues that would be completely hidden once encapsulated. The things that appear on high grade notes are often really general. Like, 1 small tick noted on spine, or slightly blunted corner. So not very informative. Thus, the description is often not enough to tell books apart without a photo, and they have figured out a way to substitute their photo. We are comparing photos where you can see the wrap, exactly where a spine tick is located, etc. Things the notes do not record, and so someone assessing a book for re-holder would easily miss a swap. 

I can see how this would be easily missed, without doing side by side photo comparisons. CGC is not comparing each resubmission with photos to see if it is the same book. It would be time consuming, and very costly. We are catching it because the insane people here are willing to take the time to compair, and are doing it on a handful of examples, not 1000's of books.

On 12/21/2023 at 3:47 PM, skybolt said:

Unfortunately, it doesn't even need to involve taking the bold move of re-holdering books through CGC. If someone has figured out a way to remove inner wells without damaging the slab, they can technically buy an ASM #1 CGC 4.0 and an ASM CGC 3.0 restored. Do the whole switcheroo thing, and make a couple of grand just like that.

Personally, I suspect their process does cause some damage to the slab, but it does not look like tampering. We all know slabs with damage do not sell as well. So the individual needs the resubmission. Second, now that CGC is posting scans of graded books, if they can get the now re-slabbed book scanned and listed in the registry with the new image, it gives them more backing that this is the original and valid book. It also looks like CGC is backing their copy.

On 12/21/2023 at 3:04 PM, Heronext said:

I imagine they are just reholdering it and not, say, doing a page count or checking for cut-outs.

What it appears is happening is when books are being sent for re-holder, if the inner well is intact and shows no tampering or damage CGC is just re-slabbing, and not touching the inner well.  They are not really taking more then a cursory look at the books themselves. They have been assuming the book in the slab is the book they had put in that holder. They are also assuming that tampering with a case would be obvious by its appearance.  It now is clear that is not the situation.

This goes along with what I understand is a long term policy that re-holder does not mean regrade, and in fact the book would keep its old grade as long as there was not obvious damage. I may be wrong, but that was always my understanding. 

On 12/21/2023 at 1:53 PM, skybolt said:

The one thing I'm trying to get my head around is how this guy was bold enough to submit some of these books for re-holdering and not worry about CGC potentially asking to regrade them to ensure that the Mark Jeweler insert is all there and/or non detached. If one CGC employee told this person that we can't give out this designation without regrading the book first (especially if he was not the original submitter of the same serial numbered book), then shouldn't that raise some red flags at CGC if he tried the same thing with the same book a few weeks later? For example, I remember a Youtuber previously asking CGC if he could re-holder a previously graded newsstand edition and get the newsstand designation, and was told that they can't do that without regrading the book. In this scenario the newsstand designation was actually in plain site vs. in the middle of the book like the Mark Jeweler insert.

Can someone verify if what I said above is true? Can I send a newsstand book that was graded in let's say 2015 and receive the newsstand designation now via the re-holdering process only?

Because, even if CGC finds the error, they are not going to jump to the conclusion that the submitter is attempting to commit fraud.  More then likely they will call them and say the found some issues with the book. They would then ask.

1. Do you just want us to return the book

2. Try and fix the issues with a press, etc

3. Re-grade with the chance the grade drops or may get a different label.

We have no idea if the person has had books rejected, we just know some have gotten through. We have no idea what their success rate is with this. Even if CGC has caught some, the submitter is never going to admit what they are doing, the will act surprised and say, wow thanks for catching that, but I am disappointed.  CGC is non the wiser about their true intentions.