drotto

On 12/31/2023 at 9:12 AM, pdags said:

But we don't know for certain if what Briva3 was doing showed any notable damage to the slabs.

But, he was asking for label changes, this should trigger a full re-evaluation also.

The one thing the CGC could publically do next week, that may restore some confidence is announce changes in the reholdering process. Just make an announcement something like,

Do to recent events CGC must temporarily suspend the current reholdering service.  It will still be possible to get books reholdered, but we have determined due to security issues, all books in cases showing any damage must be fully re-evaluated and potentially regraded.  We must also open all inner wells to i sure that the lable and the i formation on the lable are accurate. We will offer this service at a discount from initial grading, but it is necessary to insure the authenticity of books that have been entrusted to us.

On 12/31/2023 at 1:29 AM, EastEnd1 said:

We don't know yet what this culprit did exactly... I don't think all of his hundreds of submissions could have been MEs as that would have attracted attention (CGC pre-approves those as it costs them money)... so he either swapped and resealed some or someone on the inside helped him.  If it's the former, then clearly he's able to do it without creating any obvious defect (though a careful inspection might reveal something).  If you go back to the chemists video, it's pretty clear on that second pin that it's very easy to pop the pin by merely heating it up with a heat gun... quick, simple, and no cracking at all.  He demonstrates that you only need to pop ONE bottom pin from the newest holders to get the original book out and a substitute in.  The chemist also points out that any minute scratches or blemishes from the effort can be eliminated by using tape, polishes and other solutions.  This all from one quick early attempt.  With practice, the result will get better.  He did mention however that there was one "tell" in his effort... the bottom pins at the back of the holder became slightly larger than the top pins from the heating and pulling.  So if heating and pulling is "a must" for this scam, that currently seems to be one indicator... at least until someone figures that out.  For those "in the know", I guess enlarged bottom pins is something to look for.  But for the majority of transactions, this won't be a good stopgap... too many purchasers will not be "in the know" and two slightly enlarged pins is simply not obvious enough.  CGC is going to need a new holder that doesn't open so easily with a a simple application of heat.  I expect we'll be seeing that.  What happens with the 8 million heat susceptible holders already out there, God only knows.

In the second video, where he opens the competion's clip design, he appeared to have much more trouble, and it seemed to require more skill. Now, I 100% think that with practice you could get these open almost perfectly also, but it looked harder. 

So no case is ever going to be perfect.  The best we can hope for is a desig that will break with any attempt to open. Then if the case is broken the rule must be the comic is now considered raw, period.

On 12/31/2023 at 1:20 AM, Lightning55 said:

Also true. But the scam comics, compared to all CGC comics is again a micro-sliver of those traded. Think of all the titles, the different eras, it's enormous. But the scam comic issues in play is likely a few targeted issues over and over. The CGC-enabled copies are the ones CGC is responsible for.

If someone can prove that the case is not tamper-evident, that would open them up to more claims. But until such an example is unearthed, CGC has no involvement in those direct swap and reseal comics. 

We have to see how things play out, but I am sure there will be a shortage of patience. I would like to see something soon, because following this thread is a full time job. 

All true. I really hope it stays this way, but the books found so far are all high volume, high census, BA and CA books, with desired variants, or frequent issues resulting in qualified labels. There is a fairly clear pattern.  

The biggest issue with the case at this moment is not that it fails to show damage (even the crack case video did damage the case), but if that CGC can not tell if that damage is "natural" or fruadulent. CGC has to admit they can't tell the difference. 

On 12/31/2023 at 1:08 AM, wombat said:

These are the same people that send out books upside down. Or backwards. Or in the completely wrong slab. They didn't miss this because it was "too shocking" to consider. 

There was certainly a high degree of incompetence and arrogance. I am firmly on record in saying they should have noticed this, but can see how CGC is being run they they would never have considered it a possibility. 

On 12/31/2023 at 1:04 AM, Steven Valdez said:

Yes... the kinds of books I'm looking for (early Marvels) are almost always slabbed. The ones that aren't look like they've been pulled out of a storm water drain.

Same issue for me, I collect mainly SA and BA Marvel, and dabble in GA.  If I am going to by any keys in those areas, the majority are graded at this point.  The books on my want list now are things like GA Batman, Hulk 1, ASM 1, AF 15, and SA X-Men (some of these are easier to find raw).  While raws do come up on occasion, the vast majority of these types of books are slabbed. 

On 12/31/2023 at 12:51 AM, William-James88 said:

It's not talked about as much but another thing that was exploited was CGC's own awareness of their incompetence. 

If they didn't make the ton of errors they routinely do on slabs, like not labeling a Mark Jeweler variant, then a request for a reholder due to a gaff on their part would have been scrutinized more. 

I agree 100%. CGC should have been far more aware of their own weaknesses, and should have been trying to correct the QC issues that have been obvious for some time.  At the same time I can see how they would have been blind to the sheer audacity that it took for somebody to be submitting fraudulent books to them, containing easy to spot items (unlike the micro-trimming scandal which would have been far easier to miss). Sometimes, the easiest mistake to miss is the one staring us in the face. The are the "experts" it should have been noticed, but sorta get how it would be missed, because just who would do that. 

On 12/31/2023 at 12:38 AM, Lightning55 said:

If CGC can show any markers, evidence of tampering on a case, they are off the hook. They don't warrant the case to be tamper proof, just tamper evident.

If it has been altered (and CGC wasn't involved in the altering, an example being a direct swap and reseal by a scammer), that's not on them, no liability. And so they cover only the alleged CGC-aided swaps, possibly occurring during the reholder process. 

Bear in mind that CGC collectors make up a minority of comics collected worldwide, raw comics still prevailing. Of those, an even greater minority collected are 4-5 figure CGC comics. When talking about the number of units, it is a thin sliver of the market.

-Agree, the cases are designed to be tamper evident, as such the reholder process needs to be changed that all cases with any visible damage need to be treated as raw if normal damage can not be reliably differentiated from tampering. Therefor, all reholders need to be reverified and regraded.

- I think CGC is not completely off the hook.  When you read the fine print, the only thing they truly guarantee is the book is authentic, and two people have evaluated the book. So they have a responsibility to verify any book that passes through their hands is what the book appears to be.  During the reholder submission, if there is any issues with the case, they therefore have a responsibility to again verify the book is authentic. That includes making sure the MVS is present, is it a real MJI, the book is complete, etc. In addition, if they are changing the label, they must verify the changes are authentic. By missing those items, you could argue the book is not authentic. So they failed their legal statement. This does not include the grade (unfortunately).  

-Yes, the majority of comics are still raw.  However, with grails, and big money books it seems like the majority that change hands at this point seem to be graded.  Its hard to avoid, if you trade in high end books.

On 12/30/2023 at 8:59 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

but then why send it to cgc for reholder at all?

If he was "good enough", he'd just sell them swapped resealed. Why send to CGC and risk getting caught?

1. Comic collectors (and not always in a bad way) are very anal.  Many, especially with high grade books, would send the book back if they noticed any case damage, or demand at least a partial refund. He would get a reputation for selling damaged cases, and that would get around.  CGC seems to miss these.  Even if he would get noticed, what would CGC even do? Offer to regrade and reholder the book, or just send the book back? I doubt they would call him out for tampering, because they never saw this as a  weakness in their process, the were not looking for it. I doubt this would ever go beyond him and CGC, while selling possible tampered or damaged cases would spread like wildfire in the collecting community. He would have been found out faster selling bad cases to collectors then trying to get broken cases fixed by CGC. Hell this whole thing was found out because many collectors are detail oriented, very decerning, and again very anal. 

2. It gave him a way to get labels changed to note high value variants, or reclassify qualified books and have CGC legitimize the label. Then if a collector checks the certificate number, which high grade collectors do regularly, the book would be listed correctly on the census.  He found a way to use CGC's processes and census to give credibility to his books. Without sending them in this does not happen. 

3. It gives him a level of protection if a buyer questions the book they receive. He just points at the label and puts the blame on CGC.  He just says, hey CGC called it a 9.8, I am not the one that graded it, look at the census, it is listed right there. If you do not want it send it back. If they do he just sells it again. Eventually, somebody will keep it. 

On 12/30/2023 at 1:50 PM, Iconic1s said:

I’m guessing someone that when their books are received by CGC, that they know who they belong to.

Or, someone known throughout the hobby 

In theory CGC knows the originally submitter for every book ever graded. Granted, that garentees nothing once that book has left that original persons hands, if it was sold through non tracked channels.

I know it has been touched on here and elsewhere, would there be support for two levels of slabs?  People need to be honest, most of the floods of stabbed 9.8 modern or even recent spec books, are worth less then the stabbing and grading processes itself. If that is you thing, fine, but I think it has lead to millions of books encased that really did not need to be done. One the other hand grading, verifying, and protecting grails of high value definitely serves a purpose.

So for those wanting to grade and slab spec books, minor keys, moderns etc, there is a cheaper less secure slab option.

For those big books, and rare high value books, there is a more expensive, much more secure case, with multiple levels of security.  That would be reserved for book of at least $1000 in value at time of submission (just a start point). This would be it own thing, with dedicated staff and graders. The best analog I can think of is guitars where you have say regular USA Gibsons off the regular production line, then you have the costum shop within that, with its own dedicated, much more experienced work force. Yes it costs more.  Yes, it is only for certain people willing to pay. But, it isn't a higher level.

On 12/28/2023 at 4:48 PM, pdags said:

Look at my past few posts...  That's exactly what I was trying to get at.  Is the FBI involved?  A "private investigator" and more "council" is insufficient.  I hope they are working with law enforcement and are being legally advised to not mention it... but we don't know.

CGC has no recourse at this point other than reporting it to the proper authorities.  Unfortunately, as a corporation, they are going to cover their backside, and want to fully understand what their liability and exposure is first, before getting everyone else involved. Not saying it is right, but it is what any company is going to do.

On 12/28/2023 at 3:56 PM, BrashL said:

LOL. The copium is reaching fatal levels. This dude doesn’t make his money from YouTube. 

All it needed to show is it was possible with minimal damage, nothing more.  He did that.  We can reasonably expect a person with more practice, and ill iintentions would be much better at it. Plus, it only had to get past the proven lose inspections being done through the reholdering service.  It did not need perfection.

On 12/28/2023 at 3:24 PM, wombat said:

5th party. duh. 

We already have 4th party!!  Does not some company put that extra sticker on slabs saying it is a good copy for the grade?

Total speculation territory!!!!!!  If this leads to a new case and/or new anti-tampering measures and CGC offeres a "low cost" reverification to insure authenticity.  Would you do it?

On 12/28/2023 at 1:21 PM, VintageComics said:

Diagnostic tech thinking hat on now: 

Is there a reason he DOESN'T how a clear shot of the side he sealed "properly" because I can see that it doesn't look as original as he makes people believe it does, just from the quick flashes we get of that spine edge. There's a little 'sleight of hand' going on there. 

But his method is reasonable, and is likely enough to get past a cursory check done during a reholder submission, especially ifthey arw claiming damage to the case as the reason foe the submission.  That is all that matters.  Plus, this person has only done this to a few slabs. The scammer may have a completely different method, but has also has done this many times and refined their methods with practice. 

On 12/28/2023 at 11:42 AM, Dr. Balls said:

I'd like to retract my previous statement of 'liking' the RFID scenario.

You do realize everyone in this forum has multiple RFID cards in their pocket right now. Every credit card has one.  Cell phones are also a wonderful tracking devices. RFID needs to be scanned in order to be trackable, it has not power source of its own, and only puts our a short range signal when hit with a reader at the correct frequency.  

So yes they can track you, but it needs to be scanned in oder to do so.

On 12/28/2023 at 11:05 AM, Dr. Balls said:

Thermochromic pigment will fade over time when exposed to UV (which, arguably, no one should be doing in the first place), but I don't know if there is a discoloration involved as time goes on. Worth finding out, though - because no one would want that - however, if the pigment was applied to the post inserts and post, there would likely be not much of an issue - as long as the discoloration did not appear to be the same shade as the "tamper" color.

I have stated it before, and it is just my suggestions.  Every inner well has the certification number and possible the book and issue etched or stamped on it. Possibly include an RFID chip on the label as well as inside the inner well to help identify the book. Increase the overall strength of the welding of the case insuring it will break if opening is attempted. Make all reholders subject to regrading. High grade publically availible images of all submitted books, and full records every time CGC handles the book, or makes changes to the label and case.

On 12/28/2023 at 10:45 AM, pdags said:

I disagree.   All I asked was for clarification is if law efforcement agencies are involved.  This information was clearly omitted from the statement when it could've easily been included.  

This involved fraud over mail which is a federal offense (IIRC) and CGC only mentions private investigator and council.  Not to be snarky, but anyone can say they'll "help ensure", but have the FBI been notified?  It seems odd they would recognize this as criminal and their first calls are to a Private Investigator and Council and are unwilling to indicate, "Legal entities have been notified."

I re-read the statement and it says the individual will be prosecuted to the full extent of the law, not the authorities have been contacted and are involved. 

To me that means they are still investigating with their people, and the authorities have not been brought in yet. CGC wants all their ducks in a row, and wants to understand their liability before law inforcement is brought in.  I trust the individuals will be prosecuted, but stand by my initial statement.

On 12/27/2023 at 4:29 PM, Kripsys99 said:

CGC has had plenty of time to issue literally ANY statement in regards to this issue. Even just an acknowledgement. Their failure to do so has left the community trying to problem solve this issue themselves. The video at least gives collectors something to keep an eye out for when scrutinizing slabs. CGC had an opportunity to head videos like this off at the pass, but abdicated their responsibility, leaving others to fill the informational void.

Plus, it more or less confirms how many people suspected it was being done, but now verifies it can be done.

On 12/27/2023 at 3:45 PM, Point Five said:

Don't worry. He's got this.
 

I sense a large does of copium has been taken.

On 12/27/2023 at 3:12 PM, mephistopheles said:

Any risk of melting the inner well?

I would likely melt the inner well.  

On 12/27/2023 at 1:38 AM, MattTheDuck said:

I was not familiar with the anime version but enjoyed the first live-action "season" very much.  Super entertaining in a crazy way.  My kids are very into the anime and are hundreds of episodes in.

One of my favorite shows of 2023, and definitely the biggest positive surprise. 

On 12/27/2023 at 2:21 PM, FlyingDonut said:

No they're not. This will go away, like every other CGC "scandal" over the last 25 years.

I agree CGC will come back.  They will make some changes to policies, and may add some tampering protections.  The current slab is also 6 or 7 years old, and is already Gen 3, so it could push a redesign.  That will not be fast, so do not count on it.