Get Marwood & I

We must be brothers from different mothers Gary - I've done the same during lockdown. The Smiths are one of those musical rarities like Squeeze, Costello and a few others who appear to be unable to make a bad song, let alone record. Whilst I know every Smiths song by heart, you can still get a thrill once in a while from them. I'm quite into Morrissey's hugely underappreciated later albums at present and they keep me company on my lockdown walks and attempts at cross training (I'd be the size of a house if not for that). I've probably mentioned this before but I met Morrissey outside a Billy Bragg Christmas concert at the Hackney Empire many years back (I didn't realise L Miller had been camping down the road at the time of course). Quite the enigmatic chap he was. A true one off regardless of current thinking. One thing I've done in lockdown is look over and reappraise the past. Lots of time to do that. One thing I am certain of - as I'm sure all ages are of their time - is that we lived through the very best of everything. Music, TV, Film, Comics, culture. That time will never come again - the time when anything was possible, and everything could still be new. Rose tinted spectacles aside, there was a charm back then that is sorely absent from modern living. I'd give anything to go back. Star in my own Life on Mars maybe. I'd visit a few comic shops, I can tell you.

Cheers Gary - I've spotted another flaw too, so more work is needed....

You're right Gary, he did. I've got my fingers in so many pence pies at the moment it's hard to keep up! A leaky memory doesn't help either... You haven't got these two in oblong have you?:

Strange Tales #151: #151 10d Oblong stamp

Avengers 33 & 34: #33 10d Oblong stamp #34 One Shilling stamp

Some Thor examples of the two missing UKPVs, 133 & 134: #133 10d Oblong stamp #133 One Shilling stamp #134 One Shilling stamp #134 'O.P' One Shilling stamp The O.P. stamp was from @Albert Tatlock

Some more Marvel pence related pontifications here, snaffled from my distribution review thread, including research that appears to disprove that shipping strikes were the cause of the first Marvel UKPV issue gaps

Morning my fellow Pencificators (look it up, it's in the dictionary and everything) I tell you, this can be hard work at times. I've been plotting this out for a few hours this afternoon and my head hurts. Kudos to @Garystar whose excellent Marvel analysis spreadsheet helped no end with what follows. Now, I wanted to try and position some Marvel distribution research findings in a more clear, one page visual manner as sometimes it's hard to keep track of written explanations (especially some of mine which are, alas, necessarily detailed). Accordingly, here is the updated summary page that I posted earlier: It's bloody complicated so I've failed miserably on the easy to follow front! Pictures are nice though. What makes it difficult to plot is the nature of the three UKPV hiatuses, which are staggered by title over a few months. Here's what I mean. The first UKPV hiatus exists between October 1964 and August 1965 with most monthly titles experiencing a gap of 9 to 10 months during that 11 month window. As you can see from the extract, Spidey loses ten issues but JIM only nine: The second hiatus covers only a three month window covering October, November and December 1966, and titles miss either one or two issues: The third printed UKPV hiatus covers a whopping 17 month gap from November 1967 to March 1969 with most ongoing monthly titles missing between 16 and 17 consecutive issues: So you can see how that makes it difficult to plot as the UKPV existence dates overlap. Anyway, I had a go anyway and this is the result (again): I want to focus for a second on the 'Second Printed UKPV Hiatus' as follows: We already know from previous posts that there are 10d oblong stamps in existence that look like this: So, looking at every title that has one or two UKPVs missing for those months, I found the vast majority have some form of stamp, sticker or handwritten price for their applicable missing issues. Here is a picture of the file in which they sit: It's quite remarkable when you look at them all lined up. Only Daredevil and the X-Men are missing and the 10d oblong stamps are rife. So this tells us that someone took the trouble of importing and stamping up the missing issues. Who it was, and when they did it, will likely remain a mystery, but there was clearly an attempt. This snapshot of Gary's spreadsheet, highlighted to show the UKPV issues between the first and third hiatuses, shows the absence of the second hiatus issues (in orange) but also the near total absence of stamped copies of any sort while the UKPVs existed: So for this period's phases, the broad pattern is clear: When there was a UKPV, that was it. No stamped copies (accepting the Millers at the start) Where there was no UKPV, in came the stamped copies (from either T&P alone or them and 'a n other' if the oblong and other non-branded stamps aren't theirs) As I noted earlier, the presence of the stamped copies means that the UKPV gaps cannot be down to shipping strikes, as previously suggested. That's quite cool isn't it, to work that out after all this time. I'm going to continue the exercise right up to the demise of UKPVs for Marvel, so we'll see what else turns up. Thanks again Gary for your spreadsheet and analysis. Let me know if anything on my one pager looks off mate Now, does anyone know where I can get a new pair of eyes....?

Nice though isn't it, a niche audience. See ya tomorra Kev

I've always loved the unloved Kev. Who else would pull that many pages out of Charlton pence copies Shame I had to give up on it...

Niiice. No pencers in there though Kevin. Only dual priced copies.

I must have had a black and white telly.

It was in colour wasn't it

You can't beat the old black and whites. I'm going to have to dig me Gorgo pence Charltons out now...

Didn't she get off with Hogar?

Not the girly I was expecting

Sorry, I'm not sure what these are - can you post five hundred examples?

Thanks Gary. I was supposed to be giving the mine pies a rest, but your research inspired me to create a more visual summary of the Marvel position (I like pictures). It's a complete work in progress, and will cover the full UKPV / T&P window. When the first draft is ready, maybe you guys could give it the once over and see if it makes sense / is accurate - first 5 date lines below:

That is a weird one. Gary, you've studied the later Marvels in more depth than I - we know that the stamped copies appeared during the early printed UKPV gaps as per previous posts, which makes sense (and indicates that shipping strikes were unlikely to be the cause of those cessations). From your review, and in the later stages, did you detect whether stamped copies were always the result of UKPV gaps, or were there lots of stamped copies for titles that had either UKPVs extant or no printed UKPVS at all (like your Pest above)? It begs the general question, why import and stamp cents copies if you have a formal arrangement to have them printed? That makes no sense. Same goes for DC and the other publishers where applicable. It does seem that the process for Marvel, in the later stages, was a mix of formally requested printed UKPVs but also unsold (presumably) US overstock. Maybe the overstock was a lot cheaper than the UKPVs.

I was probably there Gary. Lost track of how many times I've seen him. I was at the Wembley show in March. The last big concert of the year as far as I know. Lockdown was the following day. I'll add it to my post-lockdown II to do list Albert.

Not withstanding the esteemed research here by Marwood, Albert et al which has a certain fascination and is commendable in its own right I simply as yet do not believe that the random box of comics that newsagents received each delivery cycle were returnable. This is not my memory of the 60s UK distribution of US comics which was pretty slapdash to say the least . The fact that these comics arrived out of sequence (or not at all) precludes that idea for me and I simply do not believe it to have been logistically possible to itemise individual US comics in such a way as to facilitate returns. I would love to see copies of newsagent/distributor SOR agreements or (pre-printed?) order forms or consignment notes/manifests etc. And there is that blasted elephant that keeps up its incessant trumpeting; why only nine and not twelve numbers? Perhaps the process was different regionally and that may explain the different recollections. And there are lots of 'issues' with the process, as we have collectively identified. But the core finding is, I think, unquestionable - the fact that the numbers are sequential, broadly in line with cover months, and in line with shipping arrivals. Everything else is guesswork and there is anecdotal evidence for the pros and cons we've identified. The T&P remaindered annuals and 'Double Doubles' could just have easily been made up by T&P prior to distribution as they could from returns from UK newsagents. I like to work on facts as you guys know, present them, and then speculate on the aspects on the periphery that aren't known or provable. As an example, we know that Charlton's were distributed by T&P for a period, as we have the stamped copies to prove it. And yet I never saw a Charlton in my life as a kid in and around London. I am told by many dealers that Charlton were distributed only in certain areas. So my area was likely not one of them. And the numbers of extant copies is tiny compared to DC. Maybe the Charltons and ACGs were so few in number that they were only distributed to certain areas - there wasn't enough for everyone - and the returns were non-existent. I think it is likely that the DC process was the main one and the other titles just came along for the ride. Marvel had a formal agreement with its printed UKPVs, supported by stamped cents copies when that process was suspended. I took some persuading that a returns process guided by the T&P numbering made sense. But there is still no direct evidence that it was the case, nationwide or only in certain regions. All that is educated guesswork, including which publishers books may or may not have been a part of it. So for me, all we have proven is that the stamp numbers had a pattern and what that pattern indicated. All other aspects are still up for grabs. We can't even say that the first cycle DC 6 stamps were indeed first or second cycle really, for sure. Or that the 1959 Charltons came over consecutively by cover date or in one illogical bulk lot. It's fun to speculate and to try to work things out. But I'm always careful to post only the facts as 'definitive' statements, hence the sequencing tables are the only aspect of this debate that have made it into my Journal pages. My approach is always the same - bang on, jabber away, make - hopefully - entertaining noise and then wait for the right person to arrive with the smoking gun.

Cheers Albert. It's something to do isn't it