I purchased this directly from DOA at the SDCC in the nineties. Sent a message to Jim Warden and he very kindly has reached out to Mike Zeck.
grapeape:
Was this intended as a Punisher cover
Is it the prelim to Bloodshot Last Stand cover
Maybe started as Punisher then used as Bloodshot?
Dying to know. I attached the cover to Bloodshot Last Stand it looks dead on to me.

Mike Zeck responded to Jim Warden:

• It was not originally created for any Punisher related project. Specifically targeted to that Bloodshot cover.
Looking at it now is the first time I’m realizing how close the pose is to a Punisher pose from years prior. The ‘Plate One’ illustration for the first Punisher Portfolio! I wasn’t aware I was ‘homaging’ myself at the time :-)

I saw this prelim on Glen's Panel Page Art website. Got me thinking, who out there has prelim art in your collection. A "prelim" for ASM 302 by McFarlane recently sold on eBay, you can see it on Lee Benaka's brilliant thread Flip of the Day. What have ya got?

On 2/29/2024 at 6:55 PM, CGC Mike said:

I know how.

Thanx mike! 👂 

On 2/29/2024 at 9:58 PM, tth2 said:

Wouldn't it being dirt cheap be one of the first clues that it's fake?

I said that to emphasize NOT to risk money. I don't know the OP so I'm hoping to talk him/her out of making a mistake they can't live with.

On 2/29/2024 at 7:04 AM, Dr. Balls said:

I remember seeing that somewhere recently, but I don't think I ever saw the final price - do you know where that page was listed at?

Dr. Balls has my favorite avatar 

On 2/28/2024 at 11:32 AM, Jordysnordy said:

I can't believe another page hasn't surfaced. Brutal. You have great pages, but at least a few more would make your collecting days sweeter. One has to show up  Perservere my friend.

It's gross, but it's why I bid on it. I knew whatever it sold for, the relist value "ask" would be 2-3 times. Not to the likes of us who have trouble justifying the piece just on quality alone. This price is a trap set for the well heeled sucker who missed the auction all together.

On 2/29/2024 at 5:38 AM, PhilipB2k17 said:

Ain't gonna happen for a long, long time. Maybe if our civilization collapses and archaeologists find this stuff in caves or vaults in a couple thousand years, it will be regarded as objects of art -- like a painted Grecian urn. But not for a while -- except for maybe a few crossover examples like Chris Ware or Emil Ferris.

Most likely you are correct. Still, I see an opening to the fine art world. It's small, just a crack. I believe some comic art would translate to a small, but influential network of art pimps. It would just take a few well heeled galleries to experiment in "Primitive pop culural expression." I can see that's not likely, but as Lloyd said in Dumb and Dumber, " so you're saying there's a chance."

These are tough Javier. Unless its dirt....dirt...cheap like twenty bucks, stay away. Is there any verifiable provenace for the piece? I'm not talking about COA's which are worthless in our hobby. Just provenance... like a chain of ownership to atleast see if the story matches the art.

Price protection is a precursor to somebody holding the bag. That's the shame of not letting the market find its own top. I'll be waiting if it all collapses

On 2/27/2024 at 8:45 PM, Silver Surfer said:

I have no clue as to its value but if it fetches $200K I would be shocked. I only say this because it's an unpublished piece and I figured that for that price you could fetch an iconic published piece. 

It's going to be interesting to watch. In most cases I would agree that an "iconic" published page is king. In this case though we have an iconic non published piece by a comic art legend, drawing the most iconic hero in comic history (with no disrespect to Supes and Batman).

The quality, large drawn Spidey by Ditko....... published or not it's like finding an unbelievable treasure. The pin up I think matches or surpasses any page Ditko ever drew, and he displayed Amazing quality in his work in 1-37 and AF15.

On 2/27/2024 at 2:19 AM, The Voord said:

Hey, Mike

My question was a rhetorical one, asked for effect, and aimed at those wondering if a CCA stamp was on the back of the artwork.  That is, if Lee decided (for whatever reason) not to publish the art in any of his books, why would it ever have been submitted to the CCA for censorship scrutiny/publication green-light?

I get that you're curious if anything was on the back of the art (it's not uncommon to find thumbnail sketches and the like, or maybe notes).  That's a different kind of interest.

Normally I'm sharper minded. Apologies my friend.

On 2/26/2024 at 6:34 AM, tth2 said:

I totally agree.  I would've made the same revisions if someone had posted the same thing about Peanuts.

It's why I really only collect most comic strips from the first few years of their runs, because that's when you can expect that their creators were still really doing the work and the stories/gags were still strong.  For example, having read "Blondie" since the early 1970s, I always thought it was a terrible, stale strip.  But seeing strips from the early 1930s when they've been auctioned by Heritage, when Chic Young was still doing the work and there was a really interesting story between Blondie and Dagwood unfolding, has been a revelation. 

I have massive respect for Bill Watterson because he walked away while C&H was still going strong rather than continuing to milk it, even though I'm sure he left many millions on the table as a result. 

💯 

On 2/26/2024 at 8:02 AM, BS Damutantman said:

I only started collecting OA within the past few years, so I don't have any historical basis for these points, but these are two aspects I think are likely to impact the OA market over the next 10-20 years:

• The increasing recognition of OA as a legitimate art form by museums and other institutions. More recognition further legitimizes the significant values achieved by higher-end pieces for outside art investors/collectors, which could bring more of their money to the market. It also seems like a good way to bring in younger collectors. I've been to the SDCC museum a few times in recent years. During the Spider-Man and Stan-Lee exhibits, I saw at least a few groups of youths (younger than high school) going through the exhibit, getting excited about how cool the original art looked and talking about how they would draw Spidey. These youths could easily become the next generation of collectors in 10-20 years. They might not be gunning for 4-6 figure pieces, but more collectors means a healthier overall market.
   
• A lot of OA nowadays is partially or entirely digital. I'm curious to see how this will impact the market; will the current OA be more valuable because less was physically made? Will it limit the entry points for future collectors? E.g., individuals reading books now who decide to kickstart their OA collection in some years by finding pages from the stories that impacted them as youths, only to see no physical OA exists. This last point is particularly resonant with my entry to OA. I've been a comic guy and gamer since I was a kid. I was aware of OA but primarily stuck to comics. Finding some pages from the 90s comic adaptation of my favorite video game (Resident Evil) finally pushed me into collecting OA. Now, I've expanded my OA collection to include many different types of pages I was always interested in but was not ready to pull the trigger on. If that original Resident Evil art had been only digital, I don't know if I would have made the jump. 

Very good points. Just know that there are some on the board who insist comic OA will never crossover to, say, the fine art market. While they make relevant points about snobbery, Or Rembrandt vs. Sal Buscena... I still believe there is a way OA expands in some form over to the galleries of fine art. It's not always comparisons that drive an art market. Picasso is on another level than Don Heck. Okay. A given.

Art is intuitive, and the collector is a target for manipulation, but also self examination of what appeals to them. Now it only takes money and access, mixed with enthusiasm.and

A clever gallery rep will one day "challenge" the fine art world with primitive expression that relies less on comparing the talent of the fine art masters, but does mark a significant time period of the comic created form. Nostalgia and "one of a kind" art mix together and make a hell of drug.

I can't speak to digital art, other than to say it's what we have now. I prefer the old way.

I'm happy to hear your experience with young people and their expressed appreciation of comic art!

 I think are likely to impact the OA market over the next 10-20 years:

On 2/26/2024 at 8:02 AM, BS Damutantman said:

On 2/26/2024 at 10:16 AM, The Voord said:

If Stan pulled the artwork from publication and (presumably) not submitted for CCA approval,, why would there be a stamp on the back?

Terry I'm not sure there is one. I just want to see what if anything might be there. The treasure Hunter in me.

Artie Simek rocks!!!!

On 2/24/2024 at 11:21 AM, Peter L said:

Up to now, I have been bullish on comic art and believed it could continue to go up.  I have a different opinion now.

A lot of my opinion was that comics would still be relevant, especially Marvel because Disney was such a smart organization on how to keep their IP relevant.  Based on the poor choices at Disney management, it looks like they are destroying every part of their empire.  I read they just sold the rights to make physical media for their films to Sony.  Disney looks like they are bleeding money making flop after flop for choices other than what fans want to pay for.  Of course I am trying to explain this in a non-political way, but if you know the context, I'm sure you understand this.  Making money and making fans are not the priorities of Disney as it has been in the past.  Comic store owners I speak to also explain how Disney is hurting their businesses with bad distribution deals and bad business practices that take short term bucks over long term investment decisions.  I am taking a huge loss on the Disney stock I own.

WB Discovery is also making bad business decisions for other reasons, but also quite a mess.  

I suppose both corps could be bought out or have new management but I wouldn't bet on that or that things will turn around or be ok for either company.

The comic book industry is suffering from downstream bad corporate choices.  They are not making new fans.  There is a big collectors swap meet like show called Frank and Sons in Los Angeles. I use it as a barometer for what is popular among kids.   It used to be mostly comics and some cards maybe 20 years ago.  Now it only has a few tables for comics, and a few more rows for sports cards, and a lot of pokemon.  Times change and kids nowdays do not seem interested in the latest political message comics for some reason.  The best selling comic in the US is Dogman now.  They are actually good but they are for kids.  I spoke to a huge comic store owner who is my friend and he never heard of Dogman even though he has a kid.  

I have and read every Superman comic from something like the early 80s to early 2000s, and some after but they became harder and harder to read.  The new comics are mostly awful and unreadable, not just for politics but storytelling flaws.  

Comics used to be disposable and cheap.  In an era where everyone is being squeezed by $18 Big Mac meals, most kids don't have money to throw away on 18 page decompressed comics of mostly art and little plot and with perhaps objectionable or insulting messages.

I think Pokemon will be relevant and see the 30 year bump in values down the road.  After we die off, I don't see new comic readers being created who will be interested in the art that is left.  I tried reading early Marvel Masterpieces (first few Avengers, Fantastic Four, Spider-man) to kids recently and no one was interested.  No one was interested in any new book or Star Wars show or Marvel tv show.  I'm not going to show kids the comic where Superman was raped in prison.  History will look back at the last few years of the destruction of Disney and WB and the comic book industry as a turning point as we do as the start of the Silver Age or the release of DKR and Watchmen.  This is a big inflection point and we are going to look back at this time with sadness where things could have been different but the worse case scenario occurred.  

If something I really want comes up for a good price like a particular DKR page or something I liked, I would still buy it at the right price.  I'm young enough to appreciate it before I enter the retirement phase and need to sell before my death.  But as an investment or even for fun, all of the modern bad current iterations of the characters are staining my previous good feelings towards the characters.

The powers that be at DC the moment they dreamed up the final nail for his coffin.

On 2/24/2024 at 6:02 PM, alxjhnsn said:

I'm sad. Scott Kress of Catskill Comics has reported the passing of 97 years young Ramona Fradon. 

I found her to be very nice and, of course, a wonderful artist. I've met her a few times and I have three piece by her. The first I bought of eBay, the second was a commission because the first didn't include Sapphire which is a crime, and the third is one of my faux Sugar and Spike covers. This one features Plastic Man who was drawn by Ramona when DC brought him back.

    

There she is with Joe Sinnott. We're losing so many artist friends. Rest in peace and God bless.

On 2/24/2024 at 1:31 PM, glenbru said:

THE AWESOME ART DROP AT PANEL PAGE! SEE THE ABOVE AND MORE, HERE: https://panelpageart.com/newitems.asp   PANEL PAGE ART IS NOW ACCEPTING NEW CONSIGNMENT IN LOS ANGELES! IF YOU ALWAYS WANTED TO CONSIGN WITH US YOU CAN NOW AVOID THE HASSLE OF SHIPPING! AND OF COURSE YOU CAN ALSO SHIP TO US AS WELL. TO DISCUSS... CONTACT: glen@panelpageart.com

I'm telling everyone straight up. One of the best art drops I've seen from Glen. Pretty good round up, really. A+

On 2/24/2024 at 1:34 PM, jjonahjameson11 said:

Based on the inking, can anyone determine the year of the unpublished pinup?  for example, is it possible that it was intended for publication as the ASM #3 pinup, but rejected for one reason or another?  Or was this piece illustrated later, perhaps as a pinup for Annual #1? 

Bingo. That's what it looks like. It was a solid description but I think the more info on an unpublished piece the better the 💰 for seller.

it's too good. It feels like this one was presented with one of the published ones, and was sent to the bench as a second choice. It's so damn good! This is why I search everyday to unearth treasures. None of the time is wasted. Not just the goal, or the grail, but the glory of the journey to fetch said treasure brings joy to a collector like me.

Excelsior Stan Lee for giving this one away.

Ditto to dashing Steve Ditko, the artist who quit us long ago, but we've never quit loving his mesmerizing talent.

On 2/24/2024 at 1:03 PM, 1classics said:

I’ll ask Ross or Josh on Monday or if they’re following this thread perhaps they’ll respond and add a scan of the back to the lot…

I suppose this would “add value” in a way to show this was intended to be published in the era. Thoughts? 🤔

Buddy, if you can get a scan from them and post here, it would be most appreciated.

On 2/23/2024 at 5:51 PM, batman_fan said:

Question, if the brothers win this can they turn it into an "unpublished Spider-Man 1 Cover"?

They can. They will. Hypothetically. Allegedly. Most definitely.

On 2/24/2024 at 8:43 AM, JC25427N said:

I think we need a 3rd copy of this thread running for us to discuss this, there's just too much to unpack here

I wish I knew how to combine them.

On 2/24/2024 at 7:57 AM, Dr. Balls said:

My knee-jerk reaction is to say disagree, citing all the topical stuff like crashing economy, rising personal debt, etc - but when I look at the vintage car market (of which I spent lots of years in - but not the Barrett Jackson type stuff, obviously) - I have a tendency to agree on your assessment of the top end of the OA market. The top end of anything with nostalgia mixed with uniqueness seems to never waiver. However - at some point I have to wonder if the uniqueness of a thing becomes capped - because there is simply nothing unique left (I'm looking at you, Eurotrash Supercars)

I apologize for rambling, but here I go:

Not that I am collecting OA for "investment" purposes, nor do I expect to reap insane profits from my topless Rick Perry 'Catfight' cover but my future hope was that in the next ten years you speak about, there will be a whole new slew of "best examples" from a different era: the independent 90s. And as I speak about this, I am excluding artists like Lee, Platt, McFarlane, Miller, etc because they are already at the top and commanding huge numbers. I'm looking a little farther down the list.

Many people that collect the nose-bleed stuff by Romita, Kane, etc could already be into the 90's work with the aforementioned Masters, but there's a lot of excellent craftsmanship in other areas of that era - and while one could argue that the "objectification of women" may hold that genre down permanently - my hope is that collectors come to see that more as an empowerment issue, rather than a sexual issue. Sure, people slapped unrealistic women in sexy poses on everything in the 90's, but I stick by the assessment that the core reasoning for that was that the reward for developing empowered female characters was an increase in book sales. Sure, not completely altruistic - but that era did spearhead en masse the idea that strong women had stories to tell (the quality of those stories is another debate). With all that hope that collectors see it a different way, there are some serious roadblocks that bottleneck the amount of stuff in the 90's that is unique enough to stand the test of time combined with a continuation of it's own brand.

Did these independent stories make a mark on potential buyers? Do they have a fondness or emotional tie to the origin story of a girl-getting-revenge-for-being-abused from issues of Hari Kari? I'd say with 99% certainty, they did not. People probably look at stories like The Clone Saga, and despite it's derision - still have a sentimental place in their heart for it, and with much of it by Mark Bagley, it helps drive up value. However, those classic 90's stories are not as ubiquitous as stories from the 60s/70s/80s due to the amount of glut from the 90s era - meaning less people find an attachment to them or find them as widely-known.

Will some movie studio repurpose independent properties from the 90s? DC moving forward with The Authority is a good start towards bringing in characters that are not widely-known. Will studios look at delving into the "Bad Girl" era? As much as I'd love to see it, I doubt it - they'd have made a move on it by now. So much of the 90's independent art will not be showcased - because there will be no renewed interest in characters brought to audiences in a new medium like the classic Marvel and DC characters.

At some point, the big pieces from the 70's and then the 80's are just going to be locked up like the stuff from the 60's. Eventually people wanting to be part of the hobby are going to start driving up the next era - which they've already done to some extent - laying the groundwork for continued big prices for 90's stuff by the Top 10 artists, but it's arguable that those Top 10 artists can't hold up the whole genre. Will the hobby cap itself with those artists, or will there be a new focus on other artists simply because there's a void to fill between the $10,000-$100,000 original art price range?

Will rising tides lift all boats? I hope so - not just for monetary sake, but for enlightenment of craftsmanship of an era of art that I really love.

Some good takes, thank you. For the 90's period Witchblade stood out for me. I am on the side of the argument that "objectification of women" as an art form will always appeal to the audience it was intended for. Any protest, or downward pressure to censure the art form ultimately majes it more desirable.

Mark Bagley's Amazing Spider-Man run has a lot of fans. He is a ⭐️ to watch over these next few years.

The point of this thread is pretty simple. The best known copy of comic fandoms signature superhero now trades for millions. But I remember the day when it would've sold for a fraction of the price. Many other golden age comics of the same time period sell in the hundreds of dollars.

So, figure out what's the cream of your collection, and let it rise to the top.

I apologize that CGC and maybe my unsteady hand posted this topic x 2 threads same name. Yeesh.