MAY1979

On 9/19/2021 at 4:26 PM, BigLeagueCHEW said:

Why not, it's rare 

And Chedder is the most scarce cheese

On 9/19/2021 at 5:30 AM, batmiesta said:

Yeah!  What is it? 

1978 Drakes Hulk #21 Trading Card produced by Topps. Set is truly rare and cards near impossible to find in high grade (Near Mint or above) as they were inserted (usually crammed) unprotected into boxes of Ring Dings, Yodels, and Devil Dogs. Back then the former 2 snacks were individually wrapped in foil not in plastic and many times the foil would scratch the cards or allow a bit of chocolate to stain them.  

It's 44 years since Drakes Cakes Hulk cards were issued and no "warehouse" finds have ever come to light.  The opinion of many non-sports card collectors is they are the rarest USA Marvel Cards ever distributed. Still they are in low to no demand but yet 1990/1991 Impel Marvel Cards which were produced in the tens of millions now go for big money - go figure.

Sample card back

Does this count?

On 9/16/2021 at 8:19 PM, MattrixAlien said:

Thanks for the heads up. I still thought the historical overview was informative. News stand bar code variants are scarcer, particularly in high grade, compared to Direct copies. They have to survive a rough journey. Considering how Mark Jewellers insert 'variants' sell for a lot more than standard issues, I think selling news stands for a higher price is justified to a limited degree. Not multiple times higher like Chuck does though 

While Logical, it's nowhere near absolute. Of course without CGC displaying or even possessing up to this point  that Direct vs Newsstand data it's  speculative.

Lets take some examples:

1) Thor 337 in CGC 9.8.  Those who have monitored this book the past 5 years as i have on eBay will likley have noticed there are a plethora of newsstand copies for sale, at times outnumbering the directs. Back in the day 337 became a hot book the moment it hit the Comic shops. Dealers, flippers and collectors of the time flocked to the newsstands 2-3 weeks later and grabbed all copies they could find, even if they had to intimidate a few children in the process As result that book as a newsstand copy is not scarce in 9.6 or 9.8 and probably should not command a cent more as newsstand copies back then still outnumbered direct sale.

2) Early DC and Marvel direct sales.  Newsstands accounted for all but a tiny fraction of the market.  "Warehouse Finds" of newsstands of that era are still unearthed every now and then. Also back then there were venues other than actual newsstands that would carry newsstand editions. While there are exceptions of course newsstands from the early Direct Sale era in high grade are not scarce.

3) Later era's, I've low interest in books issues after 1990, but I do agree those newsstand pop's are probably very low in high grade.

Keep in mind I've no skin in this game unlike Mile High Comics I do not sell Comic Books. My guess is any attack on my comments that drip with venom (or carnage ) are from those with a fiscal concern.

P.S. There are several late 70's Marvel Books I prefer newsstands as they are what I recalled as small child. The different between the price area on the 40 and 50 cents Marvels is quite different as the direct sale has the diamond. Once the only real difference became the Spidey vs UPS i could not care less. As for DC, only difference from the get go was the UPC area so no real interest to me which I have (or get). However some direct sale had art while newsstands had the UPC (like Crisis 1) on those I want only the Direct Sale.

On 9/15/2021 at 3:07 PM, Lazyboy said:

 Yeah, that's one way to put it!

That's mostly a bunch of steaming horse that attempts to justify pricing Newsstands even higher than their other already ludicrously-priced inventory. The numbers in particular are pure nonsense.

Also, Direct editions were the new version that started in late Bronze. The vast majority of comics were distributed through the newsstand system before that.

Everything Chuck sez aligns with profit motive. Take his words carefulllllllly

On 9/15/2021 at 10:49 PM, TCan said:

Yeah I found it odd that a book with so many 9.8s on the census is worth so much but it's a strange market these days. I do need Spawn 1 which is thankfully several times less expensive, but still more than what I thought it'd be.

As long as demand maintains so too will price. However with so many copies in high grade it won't take much of a demand drop to change that.   Then again I could say same thing about Infinity Gauntlet 1 and Amazing Spider-Man 300 and Killing Joke #1 and Dark Knight 1, etc.  

Guess what I'm attempting to convey is Supply and Demand 101 eventually will reign supreme   Although "a market can remain irrational longer than many can remain solvent" - to paraphrase Wilde.

I was going to write 9.6 then I saw grading was completed. But 9.8 was not out of the question as the quality of the pics were not so good

Congrats on the 9.8.

 #361 back in the day was a heavily ordered and hyped book. Not usual in that situation for a book to actually live up it's alleged at the time potential.

On 9/13/2021 at 10:21 PM, vodou said:

Lotta words that distract and have little to do with the only thing that matters here: will Heritage take the return? The end.

They are in Texas, the buyer is is stuck with it. 

Between their policy's and shill bidding from the house is legal in Texas one has to be prepared to pay their max amount of their bid for every item and more importantly eat the loss if said item has some flaws never mentioned in the auctions description.

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On 9/7/2021 at 2:02 PM, Ted_L said:

I don't disagree with you here and it's pretty obvious that dealers have been artificially pumping up the market by trading pieces back and forth.  However, I do think the nature of original art makes it much harder for pure investors to make a quick buck.  There's just not enough high level inventory for Heritage and other venues to make the same kind of money as with mass produced graded collectibles.  There's obviously some dealers/collectors doing really well these days, but at least these are people who've been in the hobby for years and not just jumping in now to pump and dump.

Regarding the hidden art out there, I do think a lot is the result of black hole collectors, artists such as Simonson, Austin and others keeping a lot of their art and people who were given art years ago who don't really know what they have.  I think there's also a certain amount of fear on the part of silver age collectors that the Kirby, Ditko or other estates might try to come for their artwork with questionable provenance, so a lot of this art has been kept private.  

 

Also in Collectibles like Trading Cards, Comic Art, Boxed Video Games condition is KING. With OCA condition is an afterthought. Thus no room for the alleged  WATA / Haspel brand of nepotistic fix-is-in manipulation. i would not be surprised if an investigation led to numerous counts of outright fraud  - for now we'll just say alleged fraud. 

Of course with Comic Art there is the OCA dealer merry-go-round

On 9/10/2021 at 1:24 PM, Chicago Boy said:

Nail on head.  Part of fun of ownership is possession. Goldin Auctions is really pushing this fractional thing. I'm not sure how that comes into play

If you are one of Goldin's or Cohen's buddies there is money to be made, if you are not then you will play the part of the rube.

On 9/10/2021 at 8:24 AM, tvindy said:

Well, like I said, it's not a perfect system, but you really can't tell what all the defects are once once a comic has been slabbed. My guess is that the Wonder Woman comic has an interior defect, liked a torn page or crayon marks, that lowered the grade.

Perhaps.  Also possible that "The Promise Collection" has a hint of alleged nepotistic impropriety.

On 9/6/2021 at 11:42 AM, Ken Aldred said:

Not really a straw man argument.

Simply questioning the historical accuracy of that part of the film.

It was not accurate. Simple stuff like the way Marston met Peter was depicted was fiction. They played it very loose with accuracy to make it entertaining (Hollywoodization) but the way the film portrays the history is nowhere close to gospel.

I do agree not truly a straw-man so I've edited the post.

On 9/5/2021 at 10:47 PM, Ken Aldred said:

We are all aware of the widespread  50s comic book burning incited by Wertham and ‘Seduction of the Innocent’, but was there also separate, more specific action carried out against Marston and his Wonder Woman comics earlier in the 40s, or was that just an example of dramatic fabrication in the film?

 Huh?

If you were to research the 3 people you will find nearly all the chain of events never occurred anywhere near the manner they were portrayed nor even in the correct chronological order. Including the way the 3 first met. 

Again very entertaining and well done film that merely weaves a story around non-fiction people and events in a wholly fictionalized manner.

I've not read the book perhaps that was more true to the actual history? 

Regardless of fact or fiction still a great movie.

Enjoyable movie, I really liked it, however its nearly all Hollywood fiction based on actual people.

On 8/30/2021 at 7:36 PM, Buzzetta said:

Great question but might be an alternative to the answer you seek.  Every top sale impacts all lower tiers.   So, to be honest, I am very interested in the outcome to the auction for Amazing Fantasy 15 in a blue label 9.6. on of all places, Heritage.   The current bid with the buyer's premium is at $2,880,000 and that is before tax.   There are nine days remaining before the live auction and quite a few believe this is going to surpass the Action 1 in a 9.0 sale.  

Why am I heavily interested in this?  I cannot afford and will never afford a 9.6.  However, I have a 1.8, 3.5 and a 6.0.   If history holds true, the more that the 9.6 goes for, the more interest there will be in 'affordable' copies of the book.  That means that there is a higher demand for what is more obtainable.  

If the auction of the 9.6 is later revealed to be a sham, then the value of my items may not only decrease but there is a loss of faith in the market in general.   People no longer trust that the item they are buying has the value they believe it does. The value of my items may not only stagnate but decrease in value as the prospective customer base is alienated from participating in future purchases. 

Now again, to take your position, could this piece of investigative journalism also be a sham?  Absolutely.   The intent there is to then destabilize what is then a legitimate market in an effort to eliminate growth or create a declination of value for a multitude of reasons.  Again, such actions turn off the customer base which hesitates at participating in future purchases. 

The whole thing stinks no matter you believe the video or not to be honest. 

Same thing happened in Trading Cards with the 1986 Fleer Jordan earlier this year as a prime example of Alleged fraud and market manipulation. Of course what is not often mentioned is nearly all dealers and majority of collectors seem to condone this type of fraud and manipulation.  Dealers OK makes sense logically, but for collectors its a strange Stockholm syndrome variation.  Case in point nearly every collector I have spoke to knows how crooked (insert name of well large state auction house  or Banned northwest eBay entity here) are, not to mention (insert name name a left or right coast warm state grading firm here) but continue to do business with them unabated and often will defend them to the hilt. 

If the bulk collectors stayed away the schemes would have minimal success, if not failure, but those behind the scenes know that ain't ever going to happen.

Earlier in this topic there was mention of  OCA shenanigans going on, no surprise.. Anyone have a link or willing to provide info. Here is one of those posts.

On 8/23/2021 at 4:44 PM, Buzzetta said:

Funny you mention that. 

That was also part of this morning's texts back and forth how one specific art dealer took on the inventory of another dealer's who took it on from another.  I have been following a set of certain pages when they were announced to the public as being 'for sale' and then they 'sold' but the others were available at an increased price. 

I am becoming disenchanted with collecting these days. 

On 9/1/2021 at 5:31 PM, djzombi said:

Yeah, tape pull and color breaks aren't fixed by pressing.  

I still don't understand why some people think pressing is a magic process that can reverse color loss.  

The last Major con I attended in Oct 2019  i heard dealers say the same thing over and over regarding raw books;  "Get it pressed and you will have 9.6 or 9.8" . Heard one of them say that about a book missing a small piece of cover approx half the size of dime, and the potential customer agreeing - seriously.  Some dealer's I'm sure make a fair amount of bank selling to "rubes" and the "greedy"..

I'd really like to see a guide out there with before and after of what can and cannot  be solved by CSS pressing. If some of the mystery was removed it might encourage more folks to give it a go.

On 9/1/2021 at 1:09 PM, jjonahjameson11 said:

Congrats on your 9.6.  From what I can see, I think its a very nice example of the book.  The early days of CGC grading were certainly erratic, to say the least.  I remember submitting an unread copy of GK Scooby Doo #1 in absolutely perfect condition for grading, only to be shocked that it was graded an 8.5.  My LCS was well versed in cracking and re-submitting and I got to witness him remove the book perfectly out of its casing and packed incredibly well for re-grading.(this event pre-dated pressing by over a decade)

Book came back a 9.2, but with a brand new 1/4 inch tear on the back cover.  Conversely, I submitted Silver Age ASM's expecting a 9.2 and received 9.4-9.8, likewise, I submitted a perfect Wonder Woman #200 (classic Jeff Jones bondage cover) only to receive a 9.4.

I think their grading is tighter, and more consistent over the past 1.5 years than it was during the early days so if you want to crack and re-submit, its really a toss up.  Whatever your decision, good luck 

 

Yeah it's gamble alright. Since at least up to this point in life I'm not a seller, not sure costs and risk of re-submitting are worth it to me.   If it came back with less than a 9.8 I'd have to put it away for 40 years Perhaps 10 years ago i should have revisited the book?

I do agree grading more consistent today. Still though I have purchased many new slabs and scratched my head wondering how it garnered a 9.8 which is why I prefer to purchase in person so i can truly view the book. That said anything under $100 I still roll the dice. I will say at 1 place I'm a regular customer if the book does not meet my grade they will take it back but I do have to pay return shipping costs.  In today's age of "buy the slab not the book" many dealers have low tolerance for a return.

P.S. you still have the Scooby 1?

On 9/1/2021 at 2:56 PM, valiantman said:

MAR1979, were you born in 1979?

As an 8 or 9 year old in 1988, depending on whether you had a birthday yet, these comments I've bolded are outstanding!

When I was 8 or 9 years old, I didn't have a concept of "collectible", much less condition sensitivity.

 

Nope not born in 1979.

Was late teen when ASM 300 came out.  But as an OCD-ish collector for few years already I had noticed 2x size issue seemed more condition sensitive. Like Crisis 7,12 and others.  My personal line of demarcation as "Kid" or not is 10 months after high school ended. "Child" I consider anything pre 9th grade. These are only my standards for myself when relating a story nothing more than that.

I've been in self imposed ASM 300 exile since late 2000. Every time I see the cover to the book I just want to scream - still do

Here is my boring vent:

I picked up ASM 300 as a kid the day it hit comic shops in 1988.  My local shop must have had 300-400 copies and I gently dug through them until I found  a copy that met my very rigid standards.   It was pristine (still is) and I purchased a Mylar and board at the same time to protect it as I often did  on books that cost what was for me a lot of money.  

Knowing how difficult it was to find double sized issues in perfect condition I never read my personal copy.  In 2000 while culling books for my first CGC submission I gave ASM 300 a then fresh look and as not often happens it was a perfect as I recalled. I figured a 9.9 was possible - something I never thought on any other sub since.

When I got the submission back and opened the box, these were days before online grades were available, I was heart broken then angered after seeing a 9.6. Yes CGC was very strict in those early days but I too was a harsh grader. Must have got the CGC grader of death. Today when a book is submitted you can get graders notes not sure if they existed back in 2000. I packed up the book and for the next 21 years tried to forget this kick to my nads by CGC and did not set eyes on it again until today.

Looked at through the case with my 12x jewelers loop this morning and all looks perfect. Spine is tight and flat and blemish free, edges are all razor sharp and surface and gloss on both sides appears flawless. Earlier today I compared it to 40 other various CGC 9.8's (all newest CGC label) and this book beat them all, some by a wide margin.  I do find a decent amount of  CGC 9.8's i purchased the last 5 years (in the newest slabs) would  have only been strong 9.6's back in the earliest days. Which is why when I can I try to only purchase in person, "buy the book not the slab" in effect.

I gave thought to cracking it out and re-submitting but afraid I'd damage it, also like some collectors I favor the old-school CGC labels or Flips as they are referred to in trading card grading world.

Here's a scan, pardon the cut off top+bottom and the redacted barcode.

I'd like to say I feel better getting this off my chest but I don't. Oh well...

On 8/22/2021 at 11:37 AM, Jeffro. said:

Underdog 1 seems to be desired. 

My comment was pretty much geared at the mid 70's Hanna Charlton's as mentioned in my first  sentence but yeah not 100% clear on second sentence.

"I had wanted a High grade Hanna-Barbara Charlton, but only to have one as type thing. Other than Scooby the demand is pretty near zero on the Cartoon Charlton's and I don't see that changing. "

Yes, Agreed on Underdog same to some degree with the Underdog Gold Key run.  Underdog was issued by Charlton 1970/1971 before their product went from low budget to an even more super-cheaper endeavor.

I feel the Underdog art was really nice. All Charlton issues I believe were drawn by Frank Johnson of 1970's "Boner's Ark" fame as well as Beetle Bailey "ghost artist" for much of the 1960's

I had wanted a High grade Hanna-Barbara Charlton, but only to have one as type thing. Other than Scooby the demand is pretty near zero on the Cartoon Charlton's and I don't see that changing.

After I picked this up I had my High-Grade Hanna Charlton and moved on. Man, Dino is the wrong color, Pebbles and Wilma look as chunky as Fred, these Hanna Charlton's were some cheap stuff.

I see mine was https://www.myslabbedcomics.com/GalleryPiece.asp?Piece=6923&GSub=626

@seanfingh please remove from your MySlab gallery - Thanks Man!

removed

On 8/9/2021 at 11:31 AM, mec3437 said:

I paid $300ish a few years back for a 9.8 when I had stupid amounts of deployment money in my bank account.  Just reading through some old threads, so hindsight is 20/20.  After several films since 1986, I'm still struggling to see this book as a $3000 book in 9.8.  GI Joe #1 too.  Nostalgia can be a powerful motivator.  

You gave the topic a 12 year bump

I can say demand is very high for Joe #1 and key issues same with Transformers. In 10 years will they be $5k or more or a few hundred or less.  Not sure there is long term viability but my year 2000 self-submitted Joe #1 in original 1st gen CGC slab that i originally picked up raw for $2 in 1998 makes me smile.  I was a Joe kid, Transformers never did it for me the same way.

Folks I'd like to mention that the Earth II Batman was the Golden Age Batman. 

Everything's been done and undone and done again near infinitum with DC.  I dropped off that treadmill the week before "New 52".  I'm still a late 60's through mid 80's (heavy on 78-80) collector but not a new book reader