SteppinRazor

6 hours ago, Logan510 said:

A vacation normally is 1-2 weeks, you can own a car for 10 years.

You can.  It will never be worth more than just before you drove it home though

6 hours ago, Logan510 said:

Who cares how people spend their money?

That I agree.  Unless I earned it for you, I couldn't care less if you light it on fire.  Even if I did earn it for you, I wouldn't have done so unless I didn't care what you did with it.

55 minutes ago, Logan510 said:

You can say the same thing about a fine meal, an overseas vacation or any number of things. Who's to say the market doesn't bottom out in 10 years and all the comic book "investments"  fall flat? Personally, I would rather spend 10K+ on another trip to Japan than a HG copy of Hulk 181, but I wouldn't begrudge the person who would rather have the comic 

You can't say the same thing about a vacation, because your enjoyment and recollection of it continue.  A car though, is a depreciating asset.

I haven't lived there since the 90s, but my old LCS was at the corner of Ox Rd and Burke Center Pkwy.  They had pretty good back issue selection back in the day.

5 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

  5 hours ago, Real Elijah Snow said:

5 hours ago, Red84 said:

This had nothing to do with mitigating risk. He sent it to CGC because a CGC graded book garners a higher price. The fact that he immediately sent it to CGC shows that he knew PGX was garbage when he bought it at a discount. Caveat emptor. 

Disclaimer - this is not legal advice. 

Yes. 

5 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

No. Repeating it doesn't make it so. The motives of the buyer for getting it certified by CGC aren't relevant to the point, which was this: 

Not to be a grammar nazi, but you can't mitigate the risk after the purchase, you can only discover the result of the risk taking.  To mitigate the risk, the OP would have had to garner some more information that would offset some of the risk of PGX's incompetence prior to buying it.  For instance, insisting the seller sub to CGC, and only then paying for the comic + CGC fee.  I suspect that would not have gone over well.

17 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Let's entertain that idea for a second: PGX is 100% to blame. 

So, is PGX...or any grading company....therefore responsible for the difference in value, because they made a mistake (let's assume it was a mistake, and not just gross negligence)...?

If the book had two pages missing when it was subbed to PGX...and it probably did...who is the one who benefitted from the difference in value for that mistake? The submitter/seller? Or PGX?

The submitter, obviously. 

Perhaps this is the root of the flaw in your thinking.  How do you know who the submitter is?  It may be the seller in this case, it may not be.

Second, why should benefit have anything to do with the responsibility of an error?  Get in a car accident and no one benefits, but someone pays for their mistake.

17 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

So what court on earth would hold an appraiser responsible for the difference in value, based on an appraising mistake of its condition...? Keep in mind...these appraisals are NOT monetary...they are strictly condition appraisals. PGX and other grading companies are not assigning a FMV for which they can then be held liable. They are only assigning an opinion as to the condition of the item. How the market then values those items is not their concern. In fact, CGC used to have some verbiage expressly disclaiming market value in their terms, but I can't find it. Basically, it said how the market valued the item wasn't up to them, and they couldn't be held responsible for any of that. 

"But, because of that mistake, the item has the appearance of being more valuable than it actually is!" 

Granted.

PGX would not be responsible for the difference in value between a book with missing pages and a book with no missing pages.  PGX would be responsible for failure to perform the task for which they offer in exchange for money.  Should there be a court case, one would sue for punitive damages and fraudulent appraisal.  So you are arguing the wrong thing.

17 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

But the reality is, that value isn't real, because the book was never actually in the condition the label claimed, because of human error. 

"What do you mean, that value isn't real? Somebody...maybe several somebodies...paid it! That MAKES it real!" 

No. That value was based on an erroneous perception which, while unknown, was ALWAYS erroneous.

That someone would pay an amount higher for a slabbed book than raw, and therefore there is a real value added, is indisputable. Though as above, I pointed out that the market rate for a PGX slab (or a slab) is not what they are responsible for.  They are responsible for either fraud or failing to provide the service for which they exist to provide.

17 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

So you have to look at who benefited from the mistake. PGX? No, they were just paid their standard grading fee.

The person who benefited from this error...and the person who has to give back that benefit when the error is discovered...is the submitter/seller.

And that is what the law calls "unjust enrichment": benefitting at the expense of another. CGC has taken the position....and perhaps set a bad precedent...of taking responsibility for these mistakes on their part when they have occurred, but nevertheless, the one who received the unjust enrichment...whether they were aware of it or not...is ultimately the party who is responsible for paying it back. 

Thankfully, at least with CGC, it's so rare, it's of little concern. And I imagine CGC is very diligent about that for precisely that reason.

Again, no one has to benefit for someone to be repsonible for their mistake.  And again, you don't know the seller was the submitter.  If he/she was, then he/she possibly acted in bad faith, and at the least failed to do their own due diligence, but that PGX acted in bad faith or incompetence is unassailable.  They were specifically hired to evaluate the condition of the comic book, and they failed to do so.

17 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

I've explained, in detail, why the analogy doesn't work, including details such as the "mystery factor" and the "resealable factor", which you chose not to address. We weren't discussing an empty "yet sealed" pack, so I agree, that's irrelevant to the discussion.

Slabs, in and of themselves, have no value. Try and sell a slab that once contained an Action Comics #1, and see what you get for it.

You are operating under the same erroneous perception that much of the slabbed market operates under: that it is the SLAB that makes the comic "valuable." I understand why you would think that, because it's tempting and easy to do so. Nevertheless, it is not an accurate way of regarding a slabbed book. What makes the package valuable is the comic. Remove that comic from the slab, and that slab has no value. Put that comic BACK into a slab, and...provided nothing has changed otherwise...the value of that comic is the same as it was in the previous slab. 

The value, then, that the slab "adds" is INTANGIBLE. The value is for the OPINION that comes with the slab, not the slab itself. But that opinion doesn't materially change the book. It only convinces buyers to be willing to pay more for it. The book is what it is, in the condition that it is. That's where all the REAL, ACTUAL value lies. All CGC does is confirm that "yes, that book is Comic Book Z #13, and we think it's in this condition." That's it. They confirm what already is. They don't actually add anything to the item. And if they add nothing to it, then no, the slab does not have value in and of itself.

I did not choose not to address the 'mystery factor' and 'resealable factor', they aren't relevant to the analogy.  Why the card pack is worth whatever isn't the argument or analogy.  The fact that you cannot verify its contents without destroying the package (you can't crack a slab and reslab the comic in that same slab, and can't reslab for free) and its additive value for whatever reason, is the analogy.

I, and the market, am not operating under any erroneous perception.  A slab provides physical security for the comic, people in the market value that.  The slab ensures the comic within is the very comic that was appraised.  People in the market value that.  The slab includes the grade.  People value that.  Those values is absolutely real, and they are demonstrably present and reflected in the market.

17 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

And you are incorrect that a deslabbed books is only worth what an equivalent "raw" book is worth. I have bought, and sold, books that were cracked out of slabs, but which had their labels present. These were, once again, raw books, but with the added feature of having been graded by CGC at one point (depending on whether or not I trust the provenance presented.) Those books did not revert back to their "original raw" value...on the contrary, they sold for a slight discount off of a slabbed copy in the same grade.

Why?

Because the value is in the COMIC, not the slab, and the acceptance of an OPINION, which is INTANGIBLE, and does not necessarily become void merely because that book is no longer in a slab.

And, after all, in this case...the PGX label didn't vanish into thin air, did it...?

Interesting anecdote.  If a random ebay seller offered a comic and a label and claimed the latter was for the former, would you pay a premium over raw?

11 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

This analogy has already been discussed. Card packs are printed, inserted, and sealed by the manufacturer. A sealed pack has value in being sealed, precisely because of the "mystery factor." You don't know what you're going to get. Once a pack has been opened, there is no mystery, and the value of that seal is gone forever.

Comic books are not slabbed by the printer. There is not supposed to be a "mystery factor" to slabs. You're supposed to know exactly what you're going to get. Slabs, by themselves, have no value. If a seal is opened, you can put the comic back into a new seal, and be returned exactly to where you were before you opened it up the first time, because it's not the seal that matters...it's the book itself.

The analogy doesn't work. 

The analogy does work, because the commonality is the value attached to the sealed object.  You may get 10 mystery cards, but you expect 10 cards, as that is what is on the label. It may be a mystery whose cards are in there, but you expect baseball players' cards in a baseball card pack.  An empty slab has no value but neither does an empty yet sealed pack of cards, so that is irrelevant to the discussion.  The slab absolutely adds a value, I don't think I need to explain to you why a slabbed comic costs more than a raw comic.   If you buy a slabbed comic, and it sells for $50 raw, and $500 slabbed at X grade, and you crack it out to verify all the pages are there, you have spent $500 for a $50 comic.  If you then resubmit the comic to get reslabbed, and receive the same X grade, then you have spent $500+say $35 for a $500 comic.

Unless there was complicit fraud in obtaining the grade/slab, it seems to me 100% of the blame lies on PGX.  The buyer didn't do anything wrong, either. Knowing PGX's reputation is not equivalent to expecting any PGX slab to have a book missing pages in it.

1 hour ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Except that it was not that kind of gamble, and not relevant in this particular situation.

I wish that could be understood. 

I've been thinking about this situation, and I think it most closely relates to this:

You're at a a slot machine. At a normal slot machine, you have a chance of winning, and a chance of losing. You know that going in. 

However, this particular slot machine, a maintenance person took out all the jackpot cherries (I don't know how that would work; suspend disbelief with me for the sake of the argument.)

You don't know that the cherries were taken out. You think the cherries are all there, and you have a legitimate chance...however slim...of hitting them. The casino doesn't realize the cherries were taken out. Nobody knows...but you have ZERO chance of winning on this particular machine.

That's similar to the case here. Had the book come back 4.0 Universal...well, that's the gamble the buyer took, and I suspect there would be no problem. It was a 4.5, now it's a 4.0. It's now "worth less" than what the buyer paid for, but hey, them's the breaks. It could have been a 5.0. Could have been a 6.0 with a press. Who knows? In either scenario, the buyer neither would have a claim on the seller, nor would he owe the seller anything. 

The difference here is those missing pages, which is not part of that "gamble" that everyone is talking about, because it's a very serious problem that is unknown, and unknowable by the buyer UNTIL he/she receives it and has it checked out. "Well, that's the risk you take with PGX!"...except, again, that's an "as is" type of transaction that is not enforceable, especially since the buyer sent the item to another appraiser. He fulfilled his obligation to mitigate his risk, as any small claims court judge will tell you.

Like I said...our little corner of the world looks at slabs weird, in a way that the justice system almost certainly would not. In the real world, the buyer received the book, already appraised, and decided to send it to his own appraiser within a very reasonable amount of time. He doesn't lose

 

If you're looking for an analogy, I think this one fits better - you come across a labeled, unopened 10 pack of baseball cards.  There is a value attached to it being unopened.  If you open it, you destroy that value.  You buy it at a good price, and do not open it so as not to destroy the value of it being unopened.  You resell it at a profit.  Your buyer opens it and discovers that the manufacturer only placed 8 cards in the pack, even though it is labeled as 10 cards.  How could you possibly be responsible for two missing cards?

I can imagine how much it hurts the OP to have spent this kind of money and have it go sour.  But the person who wronged him is not the person who sold it to him.  Unless he subbed it and bribed someone at PGX to label it complete.

9 minutes ago, mattn792 said:

And for a nominal extra fee, maybe the cracking verification rep can also haul along three graders and the slabbing machine.  Upgrade to instant verification and re-grade for that extra peace of mind!  Transit from Florida to, say, Washington state should only be several thousand dollars, no?

But now that I think about it, if Comic Verification Authority can somehow stay in business, maybe we could make money by offering this completely extraneous service...Comic Cracking Verification Authority! 

Company slogan:  You crack it, we back it.

Not saying it's a good idea, but it really isn't that far from having approved witnesses for SS books.

12 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

The SELLER never sent what was described....a complete copy of X-Men #1...so ipso facto, the buyer can't return it, either. When you sell a comic, it is IMPLIED that it is complete, unless otherwise stated.

This is, again, the fallacy of treating a slab as an inviolate package. It's not. It's just a fancy appraisal; nothing more.

No. 

Removing a book from a slab doesn't change the book in the slightest (barring damage. Gotta make with the caveats around here!)

If you violate the package (slab), then you destroy it, and it's added value.  And how do you prove a buyer damaged it cracking the slab?  If you didn't crack the slab, how do you know that damage didn't exist before?

With your logic, if you buy a slabbed book, and you re-sell the slabbed book, you are responsible for the contents of the slab that you could not open without damaging its value.  In essence you are assuming responsiblity for a comic you never handled and never examined.

On 8/1/2018 at 12:54 PM, Jmmonly1 said:

Hello I'm new to this website . I have about 10 long boxes of 80's and 90's comics that were passed to me from my father. I know a little about comics. All the comics are bagged and backed and have been for quite some time. I was wondering what if any holy grails from the copper age are. Especially ones that haven't been graded but are all near mint. Thanks for any help. 

Some good starting info above.  Just be aware, for comics that era and newer, condition has to be pristine, with a few exceptions.

1 minute ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

You can say it...Hoookeerrrrsss....anddddd.....blowwwww.......

Can't imagine why he'd regret it then

I've never owned anything really valuable.  Most is my NM98 and I still have it, but I miss the comics that were stolen that added up to a potential couple grand.

On 8/3/2018 at 4:27 PM, NoMan said:

so what's the secret of just letting go? how to laugh about letting great books go cause you were in dire straights (a bad situation as opposed to being a member of the rock band) and needed the cash.

How to look forward without regret and not dwell in the past?

Thanks in advance

What did you use the cash for?

On 7/31/2018 at 6:11 PM, kav said:

WHY is Kirby flicking us off??

you know what you did

Marvel had a limited signed copies of 'Fatal Attractions' comics promo w/COA in one of the X-titles, my brother and I ordered 3.  Two Fabian Niciezas and an Al Milgrom came in the mail. 

And once when we were little, my brother got some sea monkeys

13 hours ago, Wolverinex said:

Where's your newstand?

That's just mean .  Now he's gotta go back out on the streets

2 hours ago, kav said:

The FBI would do well to utilize the board's detecting abilities.  It has never failed to root out the truth.

For real.  Reading it as a whole, it was hilarious to see the OP goad the board, rousing it to wakefulness to see to the heart of the matter, not what the OP intended.

Be careful what you wish for.

Great thread.  OP poked the bear

Can I have a thread with minimum purchase # of comics?  I have a bunch of $1 books that basically aren't worth shipping unless it's in bulk.

1 hour ago, tv horror said:

If you put MAN in the title you'll always be half right.

Unless you're talking about when Marvel tried to fix that

I did get it hot enough to literally melt the plastic, so those big cracks seem like a manufacture error, or possibly a freeze or hot-then rapid freeze temp change

7 minutes ago, ADAMANTIUM said:

Based on that info, I'd say it is manufacturing then, as it may have been heat they used to apply the hologram to the book. As for making them at home, unlikely but maybe possible with enough practice? All the crinkles and cracks, I'm hoping it doesn't become possible...hope mine comes back with it on the label 

My experiment was just one. And I was trying to duplicate the big cracks.  I suspect with enough trial and error, the right amount of heat may be able to be applied without causing the warp.  I'm dubious it would be worth the effort, but you never know what the right time/temp/distance is.  It could be stupid easy, and I'm just stupider.

I wouldn't take much away from my test other than it is likely a blue hologram was caused by a certain amount of heat exposure greater than most receive.  My suspicion is that it doesn't often happen by storage with the possible exception of leaving it outside in TX this past week or so.

10 hours ago, Badger said:

 I always figure in the cost of slabbing when buying raw. 

That's it in a nutshell.  If you want a slabbed comic, someone has to pay to send it in to slab it.  It's either you, or the seller of the already slabbed comic.  If the seller can't recoup that cost, why would they continue to slab copies of that book, and why should they take the time to slab books?

if you want a slabbed book but don't want to pay extra for it, it's equivalent to saying, "hey, gimme $20".

1 hour ago, Wolverinex said:

LETS DO THIS

1 hour ago, ADAMANTIUM said:

I am really hoping that it is a manufacturing thing... as I recently bought one that is blue/blacked out....

I see a lot of them advertised on ebay, but not all are marked on the label...

I'm sending it in to cgc in about 2bweeks, it'll be a while before I get them back, but I'll put it on the form, hopefully it'll end up on the label. I know it is one

 

I will get scans/pics sometime tomorrow,  A few seconds of high heat from a heat gun approx. 1/2" off the surface was enough to affect it. Furthermore, after taking a look+pics, heat for approx. 1 min was applied, from further away (approx 2", with varying heights a few times). 

The first, initial high heat close to the surface produced an interesting result.  Because the heat gun barrel is approx. 1 1/4" in diameter, I was able to apply heat not covering the whole hologram.  The part that got heat turned blue in front of my eyes.  With some practice on timing/temp/distance, you could presumably make these, [ETA:but I suspect most of them out there are made by storing in non-climate control.[/EDIT]  The reason you need practice is that almost as quickly as it turned blue, it also buckled, so the front cover no longer lays flat.  The buckle is in the hologram area itself, not the paper, so no idea if it could be pressed out [Edit:  I suspect not, because it is a plastic].  Where the heat was not applied, stayed hologrammic (it's a word now, if it wasn't before.  Such is my power).  When I lingered for a few seconds, the hologram bubbled, though the bubble faded (I believe it's responsible for the cover not laying flat, but you can't see it once it's cool, only when it's formed under the heat).

The second, extended heat application did nothing to discolor the portion of the hologram that didn't initially turn blue.  If you try to make blue ones, better get it right the first time.  it did turn the majority of the blue to black.  Eventually, it did lead to cracks - in the non-blued area only as I concentrated heat there (by not moving the gun, not by geting it closer), but there are small surface cracks, not big cracks as posted above.  The buckling of the cover is more pronounced.  You can see a few tiny bubbles on the edge between blue/not blue.

I'm not sure the pics will accurately show the results due to the swamp gas refracting the light from venus depending on the angle you take the photo at, but hopefully the description provides some insight.