BronzeBruce13

Frank Miller!!!!

I mentioned Moebius... just spelled his name wrong Also... Arthur Sudyam, Rudy Nebres, Alex Toth Forgot Richard Corben too

I never heard the homosexual angle. I was told (not fact, I can't confirm) he was a victim of "Sexual Asphyxiation". Essentially, he was "rumored" to have accidentally hung himself while masturbating. Participants of this technique are "supposed to" enjoy a heightened orgasm when cutting off "some" off the oxygen to the brain, so the jugular is tied off somewhat. If its done too aggressively (tightly)... consciousness can be lost and then you'll die from loss of oxygen to the brain. Reference the movie "Rising Sun" and an episode of six feet under last season. BUT... aside from this, he should be remembered for his excellent work... not an embarrising and fatal mistake...if the rumors are true.

IMHO... Frazetta is an artist. His work has mood and evokes more feeling... Boris is more of a technician who photographs models and executes a painting. I assume he was influenced by Frazetta, but does not match up in a "Comic Death Match". I did buy a couple of his calendars though. He was also a bit defensive when I asked him years ago if he had ever considered doing a joint project with Frazetta... "What for", he said with a pizzed-off look... as if the question was offensive or having Frazetta mentioned was an insult???

I knew you'd like Bode... do you know how he died? A very Darthlike ending Hey call me on the Lobo's I'll be up for a few more hours

Ranking them is insane for me... I'd point out that Gil Kane, Jim Starlin, Mobieus (sp?), Arthur Sudyam, Rudy Nebres, Alex Toth deserve mention and were favorites of mine too

That's a bit overstated too... I hardly think I have all the answers V, nor do I think I'm right all the time, I just have an opinion that I'll share if asked, or if it seems like a good time to offer it. I'm willing to explain my thinking whether its proven to be flawed or not, just so my views are understood and I can receive worthwhile feedback. If I hear a good counter argument it often influences my position... so I'm happy to hear it and learn from it (for the most part). I think its fair to say that I also have clearly used the verbiage that indicates that I'm open to any possibility and have always tried to acknowledge when my opinions/predictions, etc. have been disproved or when a better theory/explantion is produced. You should recall the props you received from me on more than one occasion when you have hit the nail on the head. Even in that Hulk 180 thread I was already implementing your valuable "right on the money" input concerning other issues being more deserving of a "cameo upgrade"... it was a great point (and I said so). I was off in a new direction when things got personal. There's a perfect example of my having a strong opinion, hearing a great argument, recognizing it and incorporating it into a revised approach... and most importantly it brought another layer to my thinking on the matter that I did not have previously. That's what I like from our exchanges and why I can overlook some of the other aspects of it that I don't care for. BTW... I may have to start that up again... the "cameo rating system" and other "first appearance" issues (besides 180) that are deserving of more recognition. I think we were onto something. Anyway, I have listened carefully to you, Gene, James, Mike, Dan, Lee, and many others here whose opinions I respect and want to hear. I've learned many things I was previously oblivious to or had not considered... and have since accepted. I applied some of this knowledge to my activities and have improved my strategies and decision making I feel. That said, neither you, Gene, I or anyone has all the "correct answers". If we did, this would all be too simple. So, I think its better to maintain some degree of humility because if you don't, you lose credibility and miss out when good ideas are run passed you. I value your opinion and input more than you apparently realize. BUT, I think you could chose your words a little better in some cases and allow for the possibility that you are not right all the time as well... and that others make good points worthy of recognition too. That allows for a more open debate and better results in the quest for answers/truth, not to mention not antagonizing the other participant(s) and having the discussion sidetracked. 'nuff said... no hard one's here

That's one of the damn catch phrases my guy used too! "If you cash out now you take a guaranteed loss, if you hold you still have the same amount of stock when things turn around"... yeah, that worked out great... it went down much further! All's I know is if I pulled out when my gut said too I would have saved thousands that I could have used to buy even more stock at these discount prices.. or more HG CGC books I believed in. What a genius... My wife recently cashed out and gave me the $ to put into comics... It won't be hard to beat the returns we enjoyed in the Stock Market...

Good example... although I think we saw/felt that happening over a few weeks there. I guess it depends on when/if you took action. I fared better than you I guess and did sell off nearly all the 9.6/9.8's that I had wanted to keep, but felt I had to release as it was becoming clear that almost every issue was going to be available another day for much less. I had more options I guess. I did hold onto my 9.8 158 though, even though I could have sold it for $1800 and probably can't now. Couldn't let go of that big boy...

I understand the point... again, just the rationalization that makes this all work for me. I may be wrong as I've never experienced a major crash besides the current stock market losses I endured (like most) over the past 2 years... but I feel IF I sense a significant weakening, there is time to trade down... maybe we'll see that theory tested, or not. At the same time I'm not too worried about it either... maybe just on a few books. I did trade down on my Defenders 1 9.8 for a 9.6 and cash which reduced my price paid on the 9.6 to below what a 9.4 sells for... plus the 9.6 looked better than the angle offset 9.8 I thought I could live with, but couldn't. It took one phone call to trade down. I don't know about you, but a ways back... I felt it in my gut that the stock market was heading for the gutter. I called up my one agent and let him know that I wanted to switch the funds to something guaranteed and wait this all out. He talked me out of it with "long term goals" this and "people who play it like that always lose".. and I listened and lost a ton instead of following my gut. When and IF my gut ever tells me thing are looking bad in HG CGC books... I'll listen to it .. damn stock broker

An apolgy for my contribution to the post going awry... followed by another alternative suggestion to investing $5K in comics. I'm not sure I understand the confusion

I've referred to this thinking as the rationalization that allows me to make these decisions. I know others won't see it similarly, that's understandable... but it works for me and makes sense to me. Had I held those undercopies instead... I would have lost on them. Instead, I turned them into "discounts" on the copy I really wanted. Even if you use your thinking... you can still cost average on the specific book and arrive at the same place. Luckily, I have not lost very often in general to date (knock on CI's head... just a ribbin'), and less so on very HG with exception of a few more modern 9.8's (and 9.6 BM's )... so I have not "had to" use that line of thinking/rationalization to ease my losses much. If it does happen, I'll fall back on it, wacky as it may seem... and feel much better than I would have had I went straight for a high priced 9.8 and took a kick in the nads.

Some thoughts to consider on this if I understood the remark as intended... "These are people willing to pay huge bucks for ultra high-grade CGC material, nothing more, nothing less." Firstly, you presume to know more than you do again with the definitive.. "nothing more, nothing less" part of the statement. IMHO, you should have considered saying... "Its obvious that these people are willing to pay huge bucks for ultra high-grade CGC material, although I may not see the whole picture or understand some of their reasonings/methods for doing so". It might make better sense to you in some cases if you did know more. Sometimes V, everything is not as simple as you like to think, and your conclusions prematurely indicate. You can't be right all the time. No disrespect intended, but you can't possibly know the "more or less" in my case because you simply are not involved closely enough. I am willing to pay huge bucks for certain ultra high-grade CGC material >TO A POINT<. I also make these decisions based on other factors you are unaware of. One consideration I use is if several collectors I know are willing to pay what I did, or more... that is usually an indication that I'm not overpaying in terms of current market demand. I know I can turn it over with no loss and probably minimal gain (at worst) IF I wanted too... but obviously I don't very often until I upgrade or buy a dupe to compare the first one to. I also look to conditionally sell my undercopy prior to buying in many cases... and the result of that process plays into my decision. If there is serious demand and offers for my undercopy and there is profit to be earned, that is just money off the book I'm considering buying in my view. I also look at sales data, trends, demand and my own hunches so I can buy what I want and not feel that I made unwise move at the same time. I certainly don't like to make "unwise" purchases from my vantage point and absolutely walk away from some books I'd love to have because buying in that instance does not make sense to me. I'm not an open wallet screaming to be emptied, there is some thought behind every purchase. You also have to consider sometimes I trade or do cash and trades... but had less into the books I traded... all factors that can make a seemingly "overpriced" purchase lower than you think. It may still be more than what you think makes sense, but often its closer to a "no brainer" as I know if I wanted to I "could" flip it for an immediate profit. Even though I don't sell, that gives me comfort when I'm buying at higher dollar amounts. More than a few, including yourself I believe have mentioned that the success, from an investment POV largely depends upon the price you paid for the book. Often, what I "really" have into my "keepers" is not what it seems to be. If I always wanted, let's say... a Marvel Premiere 15 in 9.8 because I love the book AND also believe I will do well with it regardless if I sell it someday. If I bought a 9.2 and profited $50 on it when I bought a 9.4... and profited $75 on it when I bought a 9.6... and then profited again $100 when I bought a 9.8. Then factor in that I also bought 4 other 9.2/9.4s when I happened upon an opportunity and sold those for $200 profit total.... isn't my price paid on the 9.8 a lot less in one way of thinking?... especially if I upgraded at a pace that was ahead of the market decline on the lower graded copies (even if there was some luck involved and I did not see all of that coming)? My thinking is... even IF my hunches/beliefs are proven wrong and I took a loss on a 9.8 in a disastrous crash scenario... I really had a buffer (sometimes significant) off the price "that seems to have been paid". Anyway, just some insight into my methodology and rationalizations that allow me to feel comfortable for the most part with my HG purchases. I'm sure there is often more to consider in other's buying habits as well... you just can't see it all. You may still completely disagree with my logic, which I suspect you will, but again... I feel maybe some things are a bit more complex than your conclusions on them indicate. hope this was something "more or less" to consider?

Hi Titan, Sorry your post got derailed a bit. Another idea is to take out small ads in local papers to buy collections. I did this and purchased around 60+ long boxes worth. I sold maybe 15 boxes out of that... plus I CGC'd 35 or so gems and I more than doubled the money spent and STILL have about 45 long boxes of books that were essentially free. You have to research how to go about doing this and develop some skill and the ability to walk away from those that have unrealistic expectations. You'll find though that many can't even find a comic shop that buys books and are HAPPY to get them out of their houses at 10-15¢ a book or less. (at least the wives are) I stopped doing this for about a year as all my cash was tied up in buying... but recently the wife closed a retirement fund and handed over the cash unexpectedly and told me to make it grow... so I'm getting back into buying raw collections again. I just got a call from this guy with a huge SA collection in midgrade. Nice early runs of early Marvel and DC's loaded with keys. I don't want any of this stuff personally (to keep, I'd surely read it given time) but selling this stuff will likely put a nice wad in my pocket to buy more stuff I want. So any investment is a gain at that point... working with "free money"... at least that's one rationalization.

No offense taken (and thanks for the effort)... I'm certainly no "Big Wheel", especially in comparison to those mentioned. I know my place in this hobby is not among the top echelon by any stretch. That said, I'm pleased with where I am today after re-enterng the hobby only 3 years ago after a long lay-off and sale of my original collection. Simply put, I just have a fanatical drive to acquire high grade examples of books that have meaning to me. I do this primarily because of my passion for the books and also because I enjoy the investment aspect too and feel that my desire (affliction) for the best examples works well with the somewhat proven "buy the best" strategy I've always heard. It may not turn out as I hope on the investment end, but I'll still have all those HG beauties should my hunches be off. I also always have the option to downgrade to a lower copy and cash in should I be uncomfortable. The effort, networking and the buying/selling I'm involved in to raise funds to buy my "keeper" books just makes me appear more visible at times. Bru (the small fish) btw... Comgeek is not a collector at all. He does not read books either. He's a businessman, and a damn good one (and a damn fair one as well). When he buys... its often for a couple reclusive collectors that don't Ebay... or for potential resale. I'm fairly certain he does not maintains a collection at all. btw2... The others mentioned are certainly "Big Wheels" (buyers/collectors and sellers). What you don't see (on Ebay, etc.) is quite staggering at times and if you're not privy to these "going ons"... you would not have a clue truthfully. I can tell you that a whole lot of sizable transactions are done privately and few are aware of what is happening behind the scenes. Knowing this, I can tell you your opinion on a few of them minimizes their true involvement and stature in the hobby/business. I have no contact with JP to offer an opinion there.

This is Lee's thread... and a great one at that... and still an unanswerable question.

I agree... no real bickering... respect shown to other's POV... polite disagreement at worst... quality information flying about. It all lead to us finishing the thread when we were ready... not when it was hijacked, turned into verbal boxing match, or sent off-track. In short, we all benefited from the varied points of views presented. I learned many answers I sought out. Overall, I grade this thread a NM/M 9.8... maybe a Mint 9.9 if more people agreed with my theories Kudos Lee

We'll propbably see a 1 or 2 more 9.8's in the coming years... but I doubt anymore 9.9's will show up

I hang around General too...sometimes... I'm making more of an effort to get more exchanges going here in Bronze... For too long I've looked in here and the crickets are chirping. I know it's only a few threads that are moving...but what great conversation and courteous, intelligent debate has taken place so far just in this thread. The objective really seems to learn, inform and get somewhere. I also notice a distinct "knock on wood" lack of senseless banter, hijacking and rudeness. You offered a buffet of good "food for thought" I am aware of some collectors too that are afraid/reluctant to submit their books for fear of something happening to them... others are simply lazy or indifferent. The bankruptcy point .. also valid. Makes sense, declare... keep/hide the good inventory. I agree many shops would be "trying" to move the common stuff and sit on the cherries... but since the buyers in most cases would have the opposite objective, I think its fair to say many had to sell the cherries and others were too stubborn to unload the so cheap that they threw the boxes in a basement... who knows for sure.

Hey MOS (nice to chat with ya)... I think it's 3 years... I asked them and they said they started Jan, 2000. Maybe it's been closer to 2.5 to 2.75 years of widespread use and knowledge of however. Time will tell... I would think that many closing comic shop owners would have be looking to cash in on the more valuable stock as many of them would have to have been struggling financially in the first place to close down? I'm sure a some gems were tucked away by some that were not as strapped as others (probably not valuable multiples though), but I figure they were trying to move as much inventory as they could to pay off debt, finance their next venture, or to live on until they had a new career going. I agree that a fair share of closing shop owners probably ended up keeping more of the less desirable stock they couldn't sell in hopes of someday cashing in a little better than 5¢ a book, but holding onto multiple HG valuable keys is hard for me to accept of someone in the position they seem to have been in. Since the hobby was in a down turn and heading for worse it seemed, it might have been tough for many to hold onto instant cash expecting a bigger payday years later. ..but most of this is only supposition

bronze forum bump

er... uh yeah I think. I'm not a business... yet. I believe 90%+ or so of collectors that sell sometimes (non-full time dealers) don't declare any profit made as income or pay taxes. I'm not even sure how that works as there are expenses and time involved. Some, like myself, primarily buy more books and build their collections, or trade (how do you tax a trade). I imagine its the same for collectors (not dealers) in every collectible market. or are you saying I should shut up and delete my last 3 posts

You had me though I thought you were some market genius too. >>btw... keep taxes in mind in the stock vs. comics investment equation. There's a clear advantage with having collectbles profit<<

... I don't want to get you started down this road.. I'll get HatePM's. I'm glad to hear that you have noticed new bidders and are commenting on the slight upturn. Now end this with something positive and I'll be very happy BTW... should have sold that DD 168 9.6 W to my buyer for $1K months back and bought it back for $600 now... that would have greatly outperformed any of your investments percentage/time wise (no taxes)... but I know you are a true fan down deep. Few can see it though beyond your economic related commentary. I still cling to the theory that in the rare/ultra high grade market that many of these people are much less affected by the economy and are still looking to buy and improve their collections. Some may even take solace in the hobby if they are losing in other areas. I'll stck with that assumption as I have not noticed less activity on that front during the past year... maybe more even. Time will tell if the fecal really hits the spinning blades

Well said... That "C" word is relative I suppose and the economy is hard to calculate into the equation... I'm just commenting on some of my observations of slowly declining prices, the shallow interest level on keys that used to enjoy deeper support, and my overall feeling in my gut that makes me more hesitant than usual when considering purchases... things feel a bit out of whack to me and I'm less confident of a turn around at the levels that I hoped for. Maybe Mike's point about the upcoming election and the efforts to improve the economy will yield some results. I'd like to see more people in general bidding... more new people as well. As for CI... I doubt you were saying he never admitted he was wrong or debated to arrive at the truth (or maybe you are)... but in his defense I recall him at least acknowledging that I made some good points in a few of our exchanges. I agree that "having to be right" gets in the way of arriving at the truth, answers or solutions and I've found that frustrating here at times (particularly in the CGC Label Note Removal Discussions). I too believe one should recognize when good points are made against one's argument or theories.. and also when they are flat out wrong or crossing a line. I had to suck it up and give props to those whose predictions about DD 131 supply in HG differed from mine, but were essentially realized. As for this debate, I want the answers about the storage issues and my proposed theory that a turn (improvement) may have occurred in the mid 70's (thus less Hulk 181's are out there in 9.4/9.6 than some suggested). It seems from the input so far, that the turn was probably a bit later ((late 70's -early 80's) for the vast majority. So far my theory is losing ground... doooh! But at least no one has called me a dope or insufficiently_thoughtful_person...yet. It also seems they were hoarded to some degree, but the evidence has not shown that they were hoarded and preserved in 9.4 or above so far. Now admit you've been off about the translucency issue