BronzeBruce13

I can accept that 181's were hoarded, that seems obvious just from the feedback on this post... what I have difficulty with... is accepting that many were stored well enough to have survived in CGC level 9.6's in particular (maybe yes on 9.4, we'll see). I also can't personally fathom the restraint necessary for dealers and collectors with multiple copies... to hold these potential HG gems back when they are commanding prices that are staggering. That defies human nature. Is it possible that there are "181 hoarders" out there that don't pay any attention to the hobby and don't realize that their plan born around 1974 or so has been steadily peaking for the past 3 years? As far as the investment comparison to investing in stocks, maybe Gene could help us here, but I'm not so sure a 4K investment 10 years ago is worth 8K now... and there would be taxes involved in that investment and probably not with a private sale of a comic. I'm also less confident about investing $4K now and expecting it to be worth $8k (less taxes) in 10 more years. I'm very skeptical of the stock market after seeing so much loss and the economic predictions for a longer down turn. I admittedly don't know much or have too much experience in the field, but yikes!! That's not to say I "expect" a 9.6 to be worth $10K in 10 years either... I have my hunches and I'll hope... but I did not buy it mainly for that purpose. The comfort and pleasure of having one (in my saftey deposit box) has it's own reward. I have to settle for looking at the mounted Cannon Color copy of it, but what the hell.

Hey Bug... Thanks for the kind words No, the auto-complaint stuff was funny (afterwards)... you just seemed like a unstable wackoo for awhile to those of us who had no idea how you developed those posts. Sorry about the overbidding... I can be a bit one tracked when I get a woody for a book. I don't recognize your Ebay handle though... don't recall squashing the bug? You should lmk what I outbid you on... I might have upgraded and be willing to let you have the undercopy at cost or a bit less (if its lost ground). BTW.. I lose plenty to bigger sharks. Recently, my Hulk 162 9.6dc Are you in the graphics field?

Good point about the Direct Distribution. I was out of comics for a long while (only back for 3 years now) and missed a lot of the storage evolution. I don't remember for sure, but I think I sold my original collection in 1983-84. I had (6) acid free boxes... and about 28 regular ones. Everything was bagged... some of it had boards or mylars. I'm starting to think the turn in storage improvement happened later than the mid 70's for the majority... maybe some of the Specs and more Obsessed Collectors used the boards earlier (mid 70's).

I don't blame CI for taking a break... some of the issues he and Gene proposed seem to have even more validity now. If either were to start that "C" word thread again... it could get depressing and ugly around here. He's probably working on his audio/vidoe set up I heard him mention more than once or re-reading all his Byrne X-men... I agree though, he can be hard to take in big doses sometimes, but his comments are valuable and on the mark often. He's a Top 5 contributor or higher on comic issues. You also have to respect that he's not reluctant to speak his mind. I just wish he didn't have to phrase things like... "only a insufficiently_thoughtful_person would buy that..." instead of the PC... "I feel buying X would be unwise at that level"... but to each his own. We miss you CI

I'm more curious as to when the average collector who desired to keep his books in great shape, recognized the benefit of, and started to using the various new storage products... sort of a time line... bags/mylars? comic backer boards? and comic boxes too. I suppose the products would have had to been sold in com ic shops if enough people were wiling to buy them. What the shops chose to do in terms of using and selling the products may have varied depending on a number of factors.

Absolutely, my question is... is there tons of CGC level NM/NM+ or better? Is that what you are saying? If you have trouble finding early Bronze 1970-1973 (and include 1974 in the easier to find category? or is it more in the middle somewhere?) vs. 1975 to 1979... what is your theory for the lack of supply of early bronze in NM or better? Circulation? Storage Method Improvements? Apathy to the offered titles? ... what's the answer? Late Silver keys are very plentiful I understand. I'm obviously no Silver age expert but I've heard that Marvel printed quite a few. I guess I could check the Standard Catalog but I don't feel like getting up off my to check when you'll tell me.

Hmmmmm. give me a rough time line? books were primarily stacked without bags from...19__ to 19__ books were primarily stacked with bags from... 19__ to 19__ (or were they) books were primarily stored upright (with or without bags)... 19__ to 19__ books were primarily stored upright (with bags and boards)... 19__ to .... or something like this. Try and pin down the evolution of the usage of the various storage improvements you recall. What about the comic box?

Hey Mike.. I know it can happen sometimes. I said as much in one of the posts. It has to happen just from the law of averages and dumb luck too. You said something that seems to be another important factor I did not think of originally... storing the books flat in a "stack" as opposed to upright (with or without bags). I've heard about similar finds in which the books were stored similarly. It seems "stacking" may indeed be a superior method vs. upright storage for reducing the possibility of stresses. When upright, it's easy when navigating through the box, to put enough pressure on the book to cause a stress or 2. When the books are not tightly packed, they can get damaged as well. When stacked, one could grab a small handful and fan through it without applying pressure to the spine. I understand more than a few pedigree collections were discovered like this. Also, RJ claims to have stored all his books in stacks. The gentlemen I spoke of with the Hulk 181's was more of an "after-the-fact" hoarder. I got the impression he accumulated them over the past 10 years when he identified them as being an excellent investment. I know some hoarding went on even then, but they fall into the speculator category I spoke of as being a possible source of some of the high grades. If one was buying multiples, their motives are apparent for the most part, and they would have to take storage more seriously. Apparently, stacking unread copies carefully, even without bags and/or boards still has led to some hg surviving copies. It would be interesting to know if most collectors in the 70's were storing their books stacked or upright. I'm betting the answer to that may have to do with... when the properly sized comic box was introduced... anyone? I believe I read some of your posts back away when you were debating Comicinvestor and you were of the opinion that a large portion of the HG 70's stuff has already been found. Are you still of that opinion...or do you feel there is tons more out there? btw.. CI PM'd me saying as he recalls, backer boards started to come into vogue around '73-'74. If you factor in that it may have taken many a year or two to get their favorite books into boards too... it seems to suggest that storage methods may have taken a positive turn in the mid 70's with bags, boards, mylar, etc. thus affecting the HG survival rate of comics from there on. The mystery thickens.

Thanks Dan, Were the boards available and being used by collectors though for their special books at least... at, or prior to 1977? Was the use perhaps regional.. were other areas onto the idea earlier? Do you feel there is merit to the theory I proposed that books that were stored before the regular use of backer boards have been harder to find in grade? Specifically earlier bronze vs. later bronze? Please elaborate if you have a moment...

call me after football is over?

Hi Bug... I've enjoyed your posts (except for that web generated complaint stuff)... hilarious AFTER I found out you were not coming up with that yourself. I was befuddled for a few days there trying to figure out how the hell you could quickly load that much convoluted BS in so many posts. Anyway... any reason your eye was drawn to "Spongeverine's" little spongebulge no one else ever mentioned it, even when it was posted full size. I thought eventually someone would notice and get a kick out of it...but it took the bug to do it I will be doing an amalgam of Patrick Starfish and the Thing when I get time. I always thought it was funny how all the female super heroes had every bump and bulge highlighted, but all the studly heroes were illustrated as if they had no willie. Poor SOB's.. save the universe, but afraid to take advantage of the "superhero-groupies" because they would be afraid word would get out that "Thor was a stubby"

Thanks Carl... at least that makes two of us for now. I had to force myself to end that lengthy post a bit early. I had a few more ramblings on the topic...but once I get going I notice my damn posts are too long and are probably passed over. Generally forumites don't want to read a novel. I pass over the really long ones too sometimes. Anyway.. its a new day and I can add a few thoughts now... Elaborating on Points #1 & #2 from previous posting: >>Although it must happen, I'm wondering how probable is it that "casual fan" type collectors (which is where I feel the vast majority of unaccounted for comics are in the forgotten collections of) managed to preserve many of their pre-1975 comics at today's CGC level NM or better. This type of collector, especially back nearly 30 years, was not "ultra-condition conscious" and also did not "seem" to be well-equipped for proper long term storage* either. Going back, there were also less grading categories (less than the many in-between grades that we now have) and a NM book was certainly thought to be something much different than it is today and a few more defects were allowable in a NM. Considering all that, and that in general, grading/condition was not nearly the concern that it is today, I'm betting only a small percentage of people (outside of dealers, speculators and the seriously devoted collector) really were super obsessed that their "newer" books (back then) remained truly flawless... or enough to earn a CGC level 9.4 and up. I'm guessing the books that were truly valuable at that point received the most attention and the best care...such as the SA portion of one's collection. Even so, that group could easily account for a good number of HG books, but at the same time, if this is all accurate, it may dispel the idea that the many unaccounted for collections contain a high percentage of 9.4 and up pre '75 books. I feel that a disproportionate number of the higher grade books (in relation to the amount produced and unaccounted for ) naturally have been submitted. I also don't believe that there are stacks of desirable issues or especially "mega keys" in the hands of dealers that are aware of their value and have the restraint not to CGC them. Most would want to cash in on the incredible prices now as there are no guarantees that they will do better later. How can anyone have that much confidence that things will only go up all the while seeing competitors selling their copies for great money and depleting the demand pool? They wouldn't... right?...they would CGC those puppies, maybe slowly, and cash in.. at least partially. Human nature. *I'm still hoping someone can shed some light on the comic backerboard issue I raised... and even polyethylene bags and mylar... in terms of when the products were introduced to the hobby?... and when would it be fair to say the practice of using each started to become common. I'm betting it was post 1975 obviously. If so, it would seem to support the idea that there is indeed a correlation between the lower supply of HG early bronze (1970-1975) vs. the more plentiful later bronze(1975-1979). Circulation is probably a factor too... BUT did comic preservation improve in the mid 70's?? ... James??

Ahhhhh! Don't say that or you'll see a bronzebruce13 obituary

Hey Lee, If by high grade you mean 8.0 to 9.0... I think it's a "no-brainer" that those numbers will grow incredibly in 10 years time (assuming there is no surprise CGC collapse). I'm also fairly certain that new issues in 9.2 have a very good chance of growing more than enough to effect value in that grade too, especially if that story I posted earlier comes to pass. If this all happens, there should then be a leveling out in value from 9.2 and down as supply reaches equilibrium, or surpasses demand in those grades. Where I personally have doubts is with 9.4 and up, particularly 9.6 (9.8's will always be worth a small fortune). My hunch (for what it's worth) is that it is less than probable, despite the overwhelming statistics, that there is still a ton of CGC level 9.4's and up sitting in collections. I'm far less certain that CGC level 9.6 numbers are going to grow anywhere near the pace some are suggesting in 10 years. I think they will remain low enough that 9.6 will clearly become the grade to have as we progress. I would then predict that a much larger separation in value/demand will grow between 9.4 and 9.6. Certainly more than the 2x to 2.25x I would estimate it to be currently. I would not be surprised if a gap of about 2.75x to 3.25x opens up between the two grades as time passes (especially if 9.4's do surprise somehow and grow more than I expect). The gap would be similar to what we witness often between the 9.6 and 9.8 grades on many keys. This may be obvious, but I think the safe grade to have going forward, to at least tread water 10 years from now, is 9.4 with oww, or better yet White pages and above average centering/registration. To expect investment level appreciation... you'll need a 9.6. and by that I mean that the book will be worth more in relation to the cost of living/inflation. (hope that came out correct Gene) None of us can do more than theorize at this point and even feeling as strongly as I do, I'm still not overly confident my arguments are any stronger than some of the opposing points of view... but here are some random thoughts that have run through my mind while developing my take on all this... 1. Isn't it more likely that the highest percentage of the existing copies not CGC'd were bought, read, handled and stored by more casual "fans"... not obsessive condition freak collectors and speculators? Are the vast majority of the remaining raw copies in the houses/attics of those that carefully read and handled the book or those who read it without fear.. and with a coke slurpee and candy bar in the other hand like me (a future high grade freak)? 2. Considering this book is given no favoritism at all at CGC (being a mega key) and the deep red/orange background/spine spotlights stresses similarly to a black cover comic, it seems improbable to me that many collectors around 1974-75 handled/stored this book so gently that many escaped the 1-2 stresses and minor corner dings that easily drops the book into 9.2 and below. >> On that note... does anybody recall exactly when comic backerboards started to be used widespread? I don't remember them being used in the early/mid 70's (but I was young). Without backerboards, isn't the likelihood that this issue in general, did not easily escape the "easy to inflict" stresses while being inserted into bags and boxes as well as when the owners casually rifled through their comic boxes? >> Also, is there any correlation between the high percentage late 70's books surviving in HG in higher numbers compared to early/mid 70's comics simply due to the use of backer boards??? If the vast majority of Hulk 181's were stored without them (at least for several years)... how can there be many CGC level 9.4 and especially 9.6's out there? It's soooo easy to cause stresses when comics are stored without them. 3. As far as supply so far, and the suggestion that we've seen only a small percentage of the existing copies (which is certainly true) is there merit to the idea that even so, a disproportionate amount of the high grade copies have been submitted simply because its far more likely that dealers and collectors who are still active in the hobby were more concerned with their books condition than fan types and bought/obtained and properly stored their copies? These would also be the groups that would be aware of CGC and the profit/value a HG copy holds. 4. With all the dealers and collectors out there looking for HG keys, haven't many of these lost/ignored collections been cherry picked? Maybe I'm off here, but if there were people that I still knew that used to collect... I would be all over buying their books and looking for the gems if they grew uninterested in the hobby. How many people know someone with a probable raw NM or better copy in their ignored collection? Didn't comic geeks hang out and have a feeling what the other had? I'm sure there is a percentage of anti-CGC purists and oblivious collectors with no friends still in the hobby that have some and won't grade them... but are those numbers staggering? OK... my brain hurts... I'm done. If I'm way off base on something here... let me hear it

BS? Let me qualify Lee... "I just wanted the book"... but I WANTED a beautiful example of the book too. So... "I just wanted the book in HG". I have high grade tastes across the board and have to pay to enjoy the type of book I need to feel content with it as my permanent "keeper". You may characterize my affliction as a mental deficiency, ego-related, and/or irrational obsession if you like... but it's my problem and I understand my needs. I'm not saying I ignored the price and did not hold some hope that it may go up, but I did not believe so at the time. I certainly did not buy it thinking I was making a great investment. When I bought my 9.6 W for $3,200 it was the highest price paid by far for a 9.6 and I was insulted/criticized/mocked for the purchase by more than a few dealers and collectors... and I did have some remorse for the amount I had to lay out...but "I just HAD TO HAVE the book in 9.6 or 9.8" Trust me.. part of me would LOVE to be the type of collector that is extremely satisfied with just VF copies of everything... but that just isn't me. I do buy many books for both reasons though... love and investment, but 181 was mostly obsession and passion... trust me! There's more to my story with Hulk 181, but it's painfull to talk about

Agreed... although it was rumored that one of those guys (owner of one of those comic empires) fell on his head climbing a fence trying to get into studio 54 back in the day. If anyone could lose a box of keys... it might be that guy I think if you want to invest in Hulk 181 at these prices and expect a decent return... you need a 9.6 (around $3500 currently... $4k if White). I doubt seriously the population numbers are going to move beyond demand for 9.6's at ANY point. However, I doubt few will lose with a 9.4 either (if they don't go nuts when buying it). We must also consider that many people want, and pay for this book for reasons other than just investment (or its not the primary reason). I bought one because I love the character and had to have it. I have no intentions of selling it... ever. In fact, I might have it buried with me with instructions that I be dug up in 300 years and one of my decendants can have it (and cash in) if he is named after me... and collects comics

I WISH he was my friend... communication was always slow and frustrating. Sometimes it took months and 4-5 emails inbetween responses... but I've been known to be persistant on occasion

you lost me

If I wasn't so busy I'd try and contribute more to this cool discussion... I can't prove this, so take it for what it is worth... but I'm fairly certain there is an individual (whom I've communicated with, and had heard about earlier through 2 reliable sources)... that has over 100 high grade copies of Hulk 181. Some of them CGC'd (no less than 9.2 as I recall, but mostly 9.4's). I saw him win around (4-5) 9.2/9.4's myself from Ebay earlier on in the CGC craze and he bid on nearly all of them for quite some time with 3 different ID's. I don't know how many of his "hoard" are CGC'd, nor what the average grade is of the ungraded portion he has, but I got the feeling that projected NM- was his minimum target grade. I imagine it has improved since then although I have not noticed him win any with the ID's I recognized. He may just be submitting some of his hoard now... doing it slowly as not to cause an obvious sudden spike in supply on the census. I did however see him bidding on one in the past several months with the main ID. This gentleman admitted (almost 2 years or so ago) that he was investing exclusively in 3 specific issues in HG for his kids college education. Hulk 181 (primarily), House of Secrets 92 and some other I can't remember. He was not hiding the fact when I asked him what I had heard. Unfortunately, I did not have a chance to determine how many of what he had. Considering his objective, I can only assume that he intends to eventually CGC all of them. We had a discussion of what would happen to Hulk 181's value when he sold them all (when his kids were ready for college). I pointed out that he would be cutting his own throat and drastically diminishing the value of his copies and everyone else's if he did it all at once. He claimed that he had considered this and had a plan in place with a big NY dealer who was to buy them all and responsibly offer them into the market as not to harm his investment and the book's value. Obviously he would have more at stake than anyone. Since I never saw the books... who knows how true this is, but I believe it is since one of the dealers who told me about him months before I emailed him, told me that he sold him a few ungraded NM's and saw the collection in person. He was quite excited telling the story. Part of my motivation to speak with him at the time (outside the obvious curiosity) was to see if he would consider accepting my CGC 9.4 181 plus cash for a 9.6. If memory serves, he did not have a 9.6 at that time. I also was trying to locate a 9.6 Hulk 180 and assumed he might have some... he said he had several HG ungraded copies but did not really want to sell them. If it's true.. there should be plenty available in about 8-10 years. Hopefully it will not appear so

Spongeverine would win. He can't be killed by slashing... he can regroup his pieces as shown in an episode where he was dismembered. The Human Torch could take him out though.

I don't know what happened... A good friend at the time... Sky Owens, penciled it and had me ink it (for issue #1 I believe). I was particularly good at embellishing metallics (being a Bob Layton fan). I thought it looked great. It's been almost, or over 20 years now and I never heard from him again or if it was even used??? who knows? My brief 15 minutes of "Warholian" comic fame ended before it got started.

Sorry to hear that.... I was lucky, my parents encouraged me to be what I wanted, but have a back up talent in case the "art thing" did not pan out. It did, and a good thing because I don't think I have any other talents I could be paid for. I wanted to be a comic artist as well... I feel my finished work was more than competitive at one point BUT I was toooooo slow to make a living at it. Each panel was a very time consuming labor of love and I was too much of a perfectionist. Not saying that my work was THAT Great, just that each drawing was a major undertaking for me. A professional can crank out a few pages a day... not me, even on 10 cups of coffee... Oh well, I was a better inker (or "tracer" as stated in Chasing Amy) and conceptual person than a penciler anyway. I actually did a cover a long time ago for something called "Cheap Shoddy Robot Toys" but I never heard what happened, or even if it was ever published? I have 3 friends that actually made it on a smaller scale. Sky Owens, Ernest Edwards (self published) and Neil King (Elvis Must Die!! self published)

Not bad at all!!!... exemplary actually for 15 years of age... without a doubt. Are you still an artist? I'm a Graphic Designer/Desktop Publisher. I've owned my own business for the last 10 years working out of my house. I used to illustrate a good deal as well... but the damn computer got me away from hand illustration. Bru

That could be interesting if they utilize the Miller DK/DK2 spin on it.... more a battle of ethics.

That could "blow them" all away if you got the right actresses... or an entire year of Playmayes Maybe they should link all the serial killers together and have a movie with all of them in a jail cell. Lecter vs. Dahmer in a Human Cook-Off!!! Bundy vs. Son of Sam in Twister!!!