heartened

One crazy person does not a real market make. It does through 2016. What the hell happens in 2016? The new Gaiman run finishes. Figured it's as good a stop time as any.

I don't know the market for Leach MM pages, but, judging from your description, it sounds like it's small, illiquid and, one might say, "trades by appointment". And, that being the case, I'm not sure how realistic these values are...I mean, let's face it, when people think about $10-$20K pages, nobody outside of like 5 people would probably even think to consider Leach MM. There were several sales of Jose Gonzalez Vampirella splashes a while back in the $5K range (back when there were none to be had and when $5K was real money). Probably about as many data points for those as 5-figure Leach MM pages, but I wouldn't have called that a representative market level either. Hey Gene, Rarity is a factor, and I agree that it complicates things. But, this is a slippery slope. There are lots of artists who had a small body of work and command high prices because of it. A comparison here is Keith Sandman pages, or Steranko X-Men pages. Each had about the same as Leach Miracleman. I look through the list and I too agree that if I had 10-20K there's a ton of stuff that wouldn't interest me on the list. The idea is not that people will pick and choose from amongst the list, but rather IF they wanted something on the list, this gives them a price point. I paid 12K for my page, which is a A+ page, about 6 years ago. Felix's pages are more B+ pages (sorry Felix, no offense meant!! I'd gladly take them off your hands!) and he paid about 7-8K apiece, roughly 4 years ago now. And those were public auctions. There are more pages out there of course, and I suspect they will start to surface now. 10K+ seems very reasonable to me. Again, this doesn't have to be what anyone will pay, but rather what someone would have to pay IF they were interested in an A level page by said artist/run. Felix, Joseph, any comments? No offense taken, Hari! I've got nothing against B+ pages (so long as the price is right!). There are plenty of B+ pages out there I wouldn't hesitate to add to my collection (such as your KILLING JOKE pages) for the right price! I do agree that an "A" Leach MM page would be a pretty easy sell at $10K these days. I'm less sure as we approach $20K, though. Hope we get to find out at auction! Ha! You got me there!

Boom! My standing offer is $20K for an "A" Leach MM page! (I'll pay you as soon as I sell my two B+ pages to Hari for $10K each.) Actually, I'd take that deal! I do like your pages, actually, Felix!

One crazy person does not a real market make. It does through 2016.

Gene - you're going pretty deep! Mike (original poster) specifically stated he's using data points. You bring up some excellent points - drop in value for recirculated pieces, the very fluid nature of the market, etc. Certainly you illustrate nicely the need to constantly keep this list updated, and to "take it with a grain of salt." With that being said, I still don't get the high end here. Hari, I see where you argue artificial supply constraints of Romita Sr pages affects the price. I certainly can't argue that. Still, the fact is if you want a Romita Sr 2x page you're going to pay 40k+. Mike had it right the first time. And I'll reiterate a question Burkey brought up a few threads back - how many Kirby FF panel pages are going for 40k+? CAF market data search reveals none. The August Doom-Thing page on Comiclink went below 30K; not sure about the December one. Yes, Colletta inks, but is 40K plus really the standard? Hi, Well, if that's what it takes to get a twice up Romita Sr ASM page right now, then you're both correct and we should put it back up at the 40K plus level. As long as we keep updating the list and moving things up and down depending on more recent data, more supply, more demand, or whatever. Same goes for all of the artists, but more for the ones where there is limited supply, or spike in demand, etc. etc. Best,

Hey Gene, I can't argue with most of what you said, but that can be said for any segment of the art market. At the end of the day, this is why constructing a list is difficult, yet that's what we're trying to do. The Leach MM market is not tightly controlled. No one has more than one page other than Felix, as far as I know. It is simply rare. Both in total quantity ever produced and in terms of where they are now. It is very much like the Steranko X-Men market. There are maybe a total of 20 pages in total. But, I think the list should be comprehensive. There's a ton on there that I don't agree with or care for, and I don't question those valuations as I don't know much about it and others are more expert there. But, for MM, it has long been clear that Leach and Totleben are the kings. Anything less than 10K is simply not realistic at all. Just my opinion, I guess. But I'll say right now that if anyone has ANY pure Leach pages that they find (Leach pencils and inks), I'll put a standing offer of 10k for each and any one from now through 2016. I won't go back on my word Any takers?

I don't know the market for Leach MM pages, but, judging from your description, it sounds like it's small, illiquid and, one might say, "trades by appointment". And, that being the case, I'm not sure how realistic these values are...I mean, let's face it, when people think about $10-$20K pages, nobody outside of like 5 people would probably even think to consider Leach MM. There were several sales of Jose Gonzalez Vampirella splashes a while back in the $5K range (back when there were none to be had and when $5K was real money). Probably about as many data points for those as 5-figure Leach MM pages, but I wouldn't have called that a representative market level either. Hey Gene, Rarity is a factor, and I agree that it complicates things. But, this is a slippery slope. There are lots of artists who had a small body of work and command high prices because of it. A comparison here is Keith Sandman pages, or Steranko X-Men pages. Each had about the same as Leach Miracleman. I look through the list and I too agree that if I had 10-20K there's a ton of stuff that wouldn't interest me on the list. The idea is not that people will pick and choose from amongst the list, but rather IF they wanted something on the list, this gives them a price point. I paid 12K for my page, which is a A+ page, about 6 years ago. Felix's pages are more B+ pages (sorry Felix, no offense meant!! I'd gladly take them off your hands!) and he paid about 7-8K apiece, roughly 4 years ago now. And those were public auctions. There are more pages out there of course, and I suspect they will start to surface now. 10K+ seems very reasonable to me. Again, this doesn't have to be what anyone will pay, but rather what someone would have to pay IF they were interested in an A level page by said artist/run. Felix, Joseph, any comments?

It is of course "wrong", but I guess because the internet is not protected they don't want to get in trouble? Who knows. There's gonna have to be a lot of censoring in the later issues, issues 9, 14 and 15. . #9 should be interesting. http://www.myslabbedcomics.com/GalleryPiece.asp? Piece=17388&GSub=1199 OMG! Too funny!

People keep talking about it as a prologue, but it's an integral part of the story as you know. This is the bridge between the past and the present, and their memories of how they got their powers and how they were superheroes back then, and how they were "destroyed" is the most fascinating link Alan Moore created. I too always felt it odd, but no other character has needed such a bridge. I guess they could have kept it simpler and just said he was trapped in ice all those years, ala Captain America, or taken over by an alien power like Jean Grey/Phoenix or costume like Spidey/Venom, but I think Alan came up with something a bit more creative

It is of course "wrong", but I guess because the internet is not protected they don't want to get in trouble? Who knows. There's gonna have to be a lot of censoring in the later issues, issues 9, 14 and 15.

First two issues come out 2 weeks apart (i.e. issue two January 29th), then monthly like any other book after that. I suspect those books will be regular size and cheaper too, as these first two issues have a lot of "extra stuff" in them.

Just read the relaunch. It was actually very nice taking my time reading the story again. But, also, they had a lot of old stories and some art that Leach used in the creative process. My Warrior #2 cover that I had scanned for Marvel is in their as well. I didn't know they were going to put that in there, but it's pretty cool (and nice to see my name credited . Anyway, I was psyched to buy these, high cover price and all, and read a comic "off the rack" for the first time in literally almost 20 years. It was a good feeling. Enjoy it guys! Hari

Just got the re-release of Miracleman today, and it made me realize we don't have Leach Miracleman art on this list. Would place it at 10-20K for the A level pages. Felix and Joseph M. can back me up on this one, but if they think that's too high then I guess we put it in the 5-10K. Although, good luck getting anyone to part with their A level Leach MM pages at anywhere less than 10K... if you can find one, that is.

Ha! I did the same thing. I will pick mine up later after work. Looking forward to it!

Hi Mike! I meant no disrespect, as I'm sure you know I don't doubt your passion at all, and I don't doubt the Romita market. As I mentioned I much prefer the visual art of Romita to Ditko on the run by a fair margin. I just think that the Romita large art market is not as stable because of the reason you mention; you have most of the art, and you will only let things go if the money is much more than you think is legit; i.e. "stupid money". But this is what it takes to pry 1% out of someone who has almost 100%. It's not a fair comparison to other artist markets where it is not as tightly held. Not saying the prices aren't real, but rather that the substance behind those prices more reflects a starving fanbase rather than the inherent value. I realie it's a chicken or the egg, but other artists on the list don't have the same issue. Right now if you want a large art Romita ASM page you have to go to one place. If you want a large art Ditko ASM you can shop around. Thus, there is a fair market and competition in the latter example that tends to make prices more established, and no one person can be a significant outlier otherwise the buyer will just say no and move on to the next potential seller. I am not bashing the Romita market, just saying that when we put pen to paper and make a list like this it is very important to compare apples to apples. Some price points on the list are far more established with narrower confidence intervals than the others. Our list doesn't adequatley portray that aspect yet. Regarding the ASM 75 interiors, yes it would have been cool. But in the end I realized I just thought it'd be cool to have the whole book together, but deep down I knew that the cover was the most important to me And, you still wanted 5K a page for a total of 100K back then, which was maybe 6 or 7 years ago. So, even then it wasn't exactly a no-brainer. Sure I could have now sold off the pages, but you know that's not my style. I'm in this to spend money it seems ! Again, meant no offense and wasn't just picking on Romita ASM. There are other examples on the list that might need a bit of an asterisk next to it for one reason or another. You can do the same thing with the Miracleman prices (which is my wheel house), as much of it is hype right now (with the exception of issue #15). I would have no problem adding such an asterisk to the MM art, and a few others, until the markets are more established.

Mike Burkey would be a good person to ask on these. Isn't Mike selling A-level twice up Romita ASM pages for $60-75K? Of course, this does not include the special pages, like the introduction for MJ, which are presumably more. So, are we saying that Romita large-art ASM art is more than Ditko ASM art? Were the Romita pages splashy, with minimal panels, large images of Spider-man? Those are A+ pages in a market that has been very much controlled. Burkey has not controlled this on purpose, of course. He was just passionate about the art at a time when no one was interested. More power to him. But, the market is a difficult one to place in a category because of that. He only started letting a few pages loose a couple years ago, and I don't see any public sales actually.

Hey Rob! Thanks for the thoughts. I tried to base the info on both public sales and whatever private sales I knew of or had heard of. Obviously this list is not gospel but rather just my own observations on these sales. And yes, any second-hand value-info has to be taken with a grain of salt just as this list should be. This is why I have asked for any feedback on additions or modifications especially from those collectors who are much closer to certain segments of the market than I am. Therefore, if you have more concrete info on certain artist/run values, please share them and we can update the list accordingly. Thanks! One of the challenges is that people who are passionate about certain combinations of artists/runs may also overestimate the value of that segment. And this may not be for selfish reasons, just may be what they've been seeing. But they also see the cream of the crop mainly and because of that what is A to them may be A+ to the rest of us, or visa versa. You can see how has the potential to artificially inflate the values. In other words, these are the experts for that market, but with it comes a passion and an overestimation at times based on what that person, who likely has been overpaying for years for that segment, sees. I'm as guilty as anyone, as I'm a big Miracleman fan and I certainly recommended we put them above the ST run. That's what I've seen, although the ST stuff is starting to catch up now. So you should take my word because I've probably seen more than anyone else, but also should doubt me because maybe I'm seeing a skewed viewpoint. Similarly, Yoram is a JRJR ASM fan, Felix loves V pages and 80s stuff like me, Chris Caira is a huge Dredd fan, and so on and so on. This list is great, but we will need other less impassioned viewpoints to continue to tweak the list up or down. But, of course, that's why we should try to find consensus. I wonder if a more objective way to tweak the list, once it's near complete (which I think it almost is, actually), is possible. This is very true; there's always the potential of these values being skewed one way or the other by individual self-interest. Even if unintentionally, as you note. I mean, I love Totleben MIRACLEMAN, but can we really say that it's a slam-dunk $10-20K? There may be a few collectors willing to pay that much, but how many actual sales have there been at that level? Which is not to say Totleben MM won't get there...just not sure we can say that it's there yet. Perhaps we should table some of these until we see some consistent auction results. Like V, which I brought up. Or have asterisks next to those which have only had private sales. Apologies if I'm overcomplicating this. Ultimately, I suppose we should view this list as a VERY rough guide, with limited data points in most cases. Agree. It also all hinges on what we each consider an A page to be. And for short, but important runs, there may be more A pages and the price points skewed up, whereas for longer runs with more variety you see a wider portfolio. I think we just do what we're doing, and keep arguing up or down until we're "mostly" happy. And then add the obvious disclaimer that this is a GUIDE and that ultimatey each page is unique.

...I can just see it "The All-New, All-Different 2014 Comic Art Price Guide: compiled BY collectors FOR collectors" In all seriousness, it's not a bad exercise to do once a year.

Hey Rob! Thanks for the thoughts. I tried to base the info on both public sales and whatever private sales I knew of or had heard of. Obviously this list is not gospel but rather just my own observations on these sales. And yes, any second-hand value-info has to be taken with a grain of salt just as this list should be. This is why I have asked for any feedback on additions or modifications especially from those collectors who are much closer to certain segments of the market than I am. Therefore, if you have more concrete info on certain artist/run values, please share them and we can update the list accordingly. Thanks! One of the challenges is that people who are passionate about certain combinations of artists/runs may also overestimate the value of that segment. And this may not be for selfish reasons, just may be what they've been seeing. But they also see the cream of the crop mainly and because of that what is A to them may be A+ to the rest of us, or visa versa. You can see how has the potential to artificially inflate the values. In other words, these are the experts for that market, but with it comes a passion and an overestimation at times based on what that person, who likely has been overpaying for years for that segment, sees. I'm as guilty as anyone, as I'm a big Miracleman fan and I certainly recommended we put them above the ST run. That's what I've seen, although the ST stuff is starting to catch up now. So you should take my word because I've probably seen more than anyone else, but also should doubt me because maybe I'm seeing a skewed viewpoint. Similarly, Yoram is a JRJR ASM fan, Felix loves V pages and 80s stuff like me, Chris Caira is a huge Dredd fan, and so on and so on. This list is great, but we will need other less impassioned viewpoints to continue to tweak the list up or down. But, of course, that's why we should try to find consensus. I wonder if a more objective way to tweak the list, once it's near complete (which I think it almost is, actually), is possible.

Really? Yes, covers are in the 20K+ range, and significantly higher for the A+ examples, but A level panel pages?

I think you must have misunderstood me, because that's exactly my point - applying those kind of multiples to some of the panel page valuations gives you unrealistically high prices for covers and splashes from the same run (e.g., McSpidey non-ASM at $20-$30K). I'd argue that $10-$20K is probably more realistic, especially if you take a look at some of the Heritage results over the past year and a half. Yes, agreed.

Good point. Maybe we should move all the McSpidey art to the 20-30K range. Also, we seem to be missing Ditko Dr. Strange/StrangeTales, which should be in the 30-40K range (maybe more).

By the way, this was a great idea making this list . It helps us understand artists that we don't really collect. I for one am certainly learning something about some of the other artists and character combinations out there. Let's keep this going. I shudder to think about doing a splash and cover art list, but you know we'll have to take a crack at that at some point.

That's true, and it's also why I think some of the art on the list is in too high a bracket, as that would imply very compressed ratios vis-a-vis splashes and covers from the same artist/run. Not sure about that. In general, an A level splash (assuming it has the character on it, nice image, etc) would likely be 2-3 times the price of an A list panel page, and a cover would be 4 to 5 times the price. A+ splashes and covers would be even higher.

You know, what's funny is that there was a time when we all sat around and wondered whether anyone would ever cross the 1K barrier, and then the barrier rose and rose. I remember vividly people saying that we can count on one hand the number of people who would spend 10K on a piece of comic OA (covers, even!). Boy have times changed - and rather quickly!