LordRahl

Even if it was not trimmed they would look better saying it WAS trimmed, and they missed it. I want to know exactly what characteristics it has that prove a definitive trim.

And if they tell you, that does what exactly? There is no way to verify if what they tell you is right or a bunch of BS.

Greetings all,

 

So in going over this JIM #83, we made a mistake on this one.

 

The book IS trimmed (on the top edge of the cover), as we went over it thoroughly in February. So how did it come through just last week and go out the door as a blue label? Well, first off, it was certainly *not* any kind of under-the-table deal with anybody. As it has been often stated, the graders do not know who the submitter is and grades every book as if it is the first time they have seen it. This also has nothing to do with which graders saw the book. Quite simply, when it comes to checking for restoration, some books are *obviously* restored (or trimmed) and some are obviously not. There are a few books, though, where the restoration can be extremely subtle and require extra scrutiny. If nothing sends up a "red flag" for the particular graders on a book, it can, unfortunately (but rarely), get by us.

 

Like others have said in this thread, and we have stated ourselves, we are not perfect. But the team of graders we have here are, bar none, the best in the business. In grading nearly 3 million books, we have admittedly made errors. But when an error is brought to our attention we fix whatever the problem is. We strive to "make it right" for the owner so that everyone comes away satisfied.

 

Right now we are in the process of purchasing the JIM #83 from the new owner in order to remove it from the market.

 

We obviously take great pride in the confidence that people have in CGC, we appreciate their trust, and are always trying to improve our company in every way, from restoration detection, to turnaround times, to our holder, and more.

 

Thank you all for taking the time to read this.

Thanks for the response.

 

Can you tell us how you came to the conclusion it is trimmed this time? Did you get the book back from the buyer and re-inspect it? Or did you just go with what you remembered from the last time you inspected it for Spider-Dan? If so, then why couldn't anyone remember this rare, pricey book just weeks after a bunch of hoopla surrounded it? (Remember, EVERYONE inspected it and determined it was trimmed for Spider-Dan). So how could NO ONE possibly remember this book just several weeks later when it was brought it for a re-sub? Can you tell us who the re-subber was? Can you tell us if the same graders and resto experts looked at it during the walk through? Who was on duty that day?

 

I know it's a lot of questions, but we all have a lot of doubts about CGC right now.

 

EDIT: Also, I hope you (CGC) didn't wait till almost 5pm to post a response, on purpose. It gives one the impression that you did it to avoid responding to any follow up questions because everyone has gone home for the day.

The bolded part may not be accurate. You are making an assumption based on heresay. I didn't make the same assumption. I assumed that he would have had their resto experts look at it for review, not EVERYONE.

Greetings all,

 

So in going over this JIM #83, we made a mistake on this one.

 

The book IS trimmed (on the top edge of the cover), as we went over it thoroughly in February. So how did it come through just last week and go out the door as a blue label? Well, first off, it was certainly *not* any kind of under-the-table deal with anybody. As it has been often stated, the graders do not know who the submitter is and grades every book as if it is the first time they have seen it. This also has nothing to do with which graders saw the book. Quite simply, when it comes to checking for restoration, some books are *obviously* restored (or trimmed) and some are obviously not. There are a few books, though, where the restoration can be extremely subtle and require extra scrutiny. If nothing sends up a "red flag" for the particular graders on a book, it can, unfortunately (but rarely), get by us.

 

Like others have said in this thread, and we have stated ourselves, we are not perfect. But the team of graders we have here are, bar none, the best in the business. In grading nearly 3 million books, we have admittedly made errors. But when an error is brought to our attention we fix whatever the problem is. We strive to "make it right" for the owner so that everyone comes away satisfied.

 

Right now we are in the process of purchasing the JIM #83 from the new owner in order to remove it from the market.

 

We obviously take great pride in the confidence that people have in CGC, we appreciate their trust, and are always trying to improve our company in every way, from restoration detection, to turnaround times, to our holder, and more.

 

Thank you all for taking the time to read this.

Thanks for the response.

 

Can you tell us how you came to the conclusion it is trimmed this time? Did you get the book back from the buyer and re-inspect it? Or did you just go with what you remembered from the last time you inspected it for Spider-Dan? If so, then why couldn't anyone remember this rare, pricey book just weeks after a bunch of hoopla surrounded it? (Remember, EVERYONE inspected it and determined it was trimmed for Spider-Dan). So how could NO ONE possibly remember this book just several weeks later when it was brought it for a re-sub? Can you tell us who the re-subber was? Can you tell us if the same graders and resto experts looked at it during the walk through? Who was on duty that day?

 

I know it's a lot of questions, but we all have a lot of doubts about CGC right now.

 

EDIT: Also, I hope you (CGC) didn't wait till almost 5pm to post a response, on purpose. It gives one the impression that you did it to avoid responding to any follow up questions because everyone has gone home for the day.

My guess here is that when Harshen told Dan that everyone with any credibility in the facility said it was trimmed, he was refering to those within the facility that specialize in resto detection, not their normal graders. So he probably showed it to Paul and Matt, since those would be the 2 people best suited to identify resto. Why would he show it to ALL of their graders? Upon resub, if the graders didn't catch any red flags, it was probably not looked at by Matt, Paul or Harshen again. Unless one of them looks at EVERY book, which I don't know if it is the case.

Greetings all,

 

So in going over this JIM #83, we made a mistake on this one.

 

The book IS trimmed (on the top edge of the cover), as we went over it thoroughly in February. So how did it come through just last week and go out the door as a blue label? Well, first off, it was certainly *not* any kind of under-the-table deal with anybody. As it has been often stated, the graders do not know who the submitter is and grades every book as if it is the first time they have seen it. This also has nothing to do with which graders saw the book. Quite simply, when it comes to checking for restoration, some books are *obviously* restored (or trimmed) and some are obviously not. There are a few books, though, where the restoration can be extremely subtle and require extra scrutiny. If nothing sends up a "red flag" for the particular graders on a book, it can, unfortunately (but rarely), get by us.

 

Like others have said in this thread, and we have stated ourselves, we are not perfect. But the team of graders we have here are, bar none, the best in the business. In grading nearly 3 million books, we have admittedly made errors. But when an error is brought to our attention we fix whatever the problem is. We strive to "make it right" for the owner so that everyone comes away satisfied.

 

Right now we are in the process of purchasing the JIM #83 from the new owner in order to remove it from the market.

 

We obviously take great pride in the confidence that people have in CGC, we appreciate their trust, and are always trying to improve our company in every way, from restoration detection, to turnaround times, to our holder, and more.

 

Thank you all for taking the time to read this.

Good statement. I'm glad you are admitting to making a mistake as opposed to trying to deflect.

Really hoping we get an update from the OP on this today...

 

I haven't heard a peep

 

I don't really expect to

 

I think CGC will address this in public, not via PM with you.

 

CGC is in discussions with the buyer

 

I don't understand why they aren't in discussions with YOU. You're the guy that got hosed...

 

No, he didn't. He played the game and lost this particular round. Harsh? Maybe. But it is still reality. How many rounds has he "won" based on CGC's services? I'm guessing a lot more than he's lost given that he is going to continue with this particular business model even after this loss.

 

I don't understand that rationale. He buys a book, pays for a service and hopes for a grade uptick, which is subjective. Restoration detection is NOT subjective. It's either restored or it's not. Isn't there something wrong with that? He IS paying for their service.

Either it's restored or it isn't. That may be true. However, detecting whether or not it is restored is not something that is able to be done with 100% certainty. Especially trimming. That should not be news to anyone, least of all someone whose very business model is resubbing and flipping books.

Either he should have done more homework and been aware of this or he did do the homework, was aware of this and still made a concious decision that the rewards outweighed the risks.

BTW, my guess is the latter is true.

So it's 4PM East Coast time and nothin' yet from CGC in the way of a statement. It may not yet be resolved but any update would be better than no update. Get your together folks. As someone that would be considered "pro-CGC", my opinion is your silence in this matter is more damaging than coming out and admitting you screwed up.

Whoops, I've had sigs turned off for so long that I didn't notice. Thanks (thumbs u

I too have not read this entire thread but I get the jist of it.

 

Would it be more conducive to discretely "tattoo" the interior of the book with the CGC number to prevent this kind of fiasco? I think it would certainly prevent the books from going through the resubmittal and screwing up the census.

 

 

If i remember correctly, PSA/DNA has invisible ink. CGC could use that to barcode a book.

 

THEY BETTER NOT.

I don't want them adding chemicals to a book I won.

If I take it out and keep it raw why should they keep their mark on it

If they were to use invisible UV ink to "tattoo" the book in an inconspicuous area inside the book what difference would it make to you? Just means that if someone were to resubmit the book for grading it would come up in the CGC system as a book that had already been graded.

 

At least the customer could be notified that the book had previously been graded. I'm sure there are other logical advantages that could come of this!

That the book was previously means squat.

The person breaks it out for SS or mishandles it. IT results in new grade. The tattoo will accomplish nothing except add chemicals to a book that is sensitive to chemicals

So tell me why someone would break it out of a holder, mis-handle it and then submit it to expect a higher grade??????????

But sometimes people bust books out for other reasons.years ago I broke out my ST 110 because I wanted to read it,smell it ect...Since then I have upgraded,this time with a raw book.with the prices going nuts I may one day(shudder) trade my old copy for something.said person who gets this book(with the old label label saved for them) may very well re submit...I take great care of my comics,but cannot guarantee it was not damaged at all....the tattooing idea leaves a terrible taste in my mouth.

It's not like an ink-like tattoo. I just used the terminology to give you the idea that if the books were "tagged" that at least there would be some way of knowing the history of the book. And I'm not saying that the only reason someone breaks open a slabbed book is to resubmit it hoping to get a higher grade but let's not fool ourselves, is that not what ultimately happened here?

 

If the book had been "inconspicuously tagged" and if the book would have been resubmitted to CGC, they would have scanned the "inconspicuous tag printed with invisible ink somewhere on the interior page(s)" and then they would have informed the graders that it had already been graded previously. I'm sure that they would pull the notes from the previous grade and make a comparison to current condition and then decide from there how it would be handled.

 

The way it is right now someone de-slabs a book and resubmits it hoping for a higher grade because who knows what kind of night the grader had? Fingers crossed it comes back with a higher grade and then you have two books in the census - one of which no longer exists? How often does this happen? How many non-existent resubmitted upgraded books are there?

 

If any of you reading this have participated in the PGM thread or the March/April/May Madness thread, how many of you have tried to grade the same book more than once (and not five or ten minutes a part) I mean like a week later or two? Did you come up with the same grade? Most likely not unless the book is in the very lower or very upper grading tiers.

 

Going this route treats the customer like a criminal and exposes the fact that CGC cannot catch all restoration despite their claims. I don't want CGC chemically treating my books just to make their life easier.

Can you point me to where they claim that they can catch all resto?

Really hoping we get an update from the OP on this today...

 

I haven't heard a peep

 

I don't really expect to

 

I think CGC will address this in public, not via PM with you.

 

CGC is in discussions with the buyer

 

I don't understand why they aren't in discussions with YOU. You're the guy that got hosed...

No, he didn't. He played the game and lost this particular round. Harsh? Maybe. But it is still reality. How many rounds has he "won" based on CGC's services? I'm guessing a lot more than he's lost given that he is going to continue with this particular business model even after this loss.

Yes it does. Basically, you can time the actual day of grading by using the Walkthru = they grade it the day it's received, or the next day. In this case it is suspicious the submitter gamed the system by submitting it on a day the whole crew was out of town. Very relevant.

This book needs to be sent back to CGC for inspection. Otherwise, how can CGC respond to any of this. I've talked to some people, outside of the Boards, and the one common response is why did the submitter flaunt this?

I'm still in the camp that CGC got played.

 

Whose fault is that? If didnt have enough manpower on sight then thats a screwup on their part. The owner of the book is under no legal obligation to send the book back to help CGC cover up their mistake.. CGC has to survive the brunt of this on their own.

 

Can someone post a full schedule of when CGC will be doing on-site grading?

 

 

So just out of curiousity. Now that you "have lost ALL confidence in CGC graded books"; you will stop buying them, resubbing them and reselling them, correct?

 

Incorrect. Until a better company comes along.......

I'm shocked... shocked I tell ya

This whole thread makes me want to barf.

 

 

This whole hobby is making me sick.

 

It isn't the hobby.

 

It is the people in the hobby, including many that frequent these boards.

 

If I were a high grade collector, I would be looking for something else to fill my collecting jones.

Why isolate to high grade collectors? The book being talked about in this very thread is not high grade. You think that because you collect low/mid grade, you are exempt from the sheisters in this hobby? Good luck with that.

Yes it does. Basically, you can time the actual day of grading by using the Walkthru = they grade it the day it's received, or the next day. In this case it is suspicious the submitter gamed the system by submitting it on a day the whole crew was out of town. Very relevant.

This book needs to be sent back to CGC for inspection. Otherwise, how can CGC respond to any of this. I've talked to some people, outside of the Boards, and the one common response is why did the submitter flaunt this?

I'm still in the camp that CGC got played.

 

Whose fault is that? If didnt have enough manpower on sight then thats a screwup on their part. The owner of the book is under no legal obligation to send the book back to help CGC cover up their mistake.. CGC has to survive the brunt of this on their own.

 

Can someone post a full schedule of when CGC will be doing on-site grading?

 

So just out of curiousity. Now that you "have lost ALL confidence in CGC graded books"; you will stop buying them, resubbing them and reselling them, correct?

I was thinking the same. I'd pay more for a true 9.6 for sure.

Agreed and I'm pretty sure there are several more of us out there. I think if a nice 9.6 came to market, it would eclipse the previous TC sale.

Heh. I am so happy I didn't win that Twin Cities Tec 395 over at HA a couple of years ago. I was bidding heavy on testosterone and would have well overpaid for it. Price took a nose dive this time around over at HA.

 

I did thought the Bats 222 came down a bit too.

 

I was surprised at the price of the 395. Hopefully I can nab a cheaper 9.2 copy soon.

The only surprising thing about that book was what it went for the first time. Book is overgraded by at least .2

I bought an ASM 14 from him a few months ago. Listed as either a 9.2 or 9.4, can't remember. The book looked 9.2/9.4 structurally however had very bad tanning on the interior of the covers. Would have been no better than an 8.0 from CGC. A defect that maybe someone not very experienced with grading would have overlooked.

After seeing many more auctions after that from this guy, yeah I get a Dupcak feeling about it too.

I'm actually more taken back by what looks like scuffing towards the top right. The wrap has a lot of white, but it's not too bad as it's straight enough that it doesn't bother me too much.

Pretty sure it is a printing flaw (the "scuffing"). Agree with it or not CGC has been consistent that they do not downgrade for it. Maybe at the 9.8 and above level they would but not 9.6 and below.

Forget Bats 232. Check out what that Bats 243 went for. Wow!

 

Holy sheepdip!

 

that's an ugly copy also, someone probably thinks they can smush it into a 9.8.

 

Maybe, but I think it is more of the upcoming movie effect. Prices have been jumping for a couple of months now on most of the Adams Batmans and Tecs, as well as other books tied to the movie such as Tec #359. With the way things are going I am very tempted to start unloading some more of my keeper copies and buy them back later post-movie for less.

I don't think it's either. That is the going price for a 9.6. Brutal tough book to find and I would have been in at a higher price point than this if it hadn't been so badly mis-wrapped. But some people don't care about mis-wraps

Had no idea that Detective 411 is approaching $1000 in 9.4.

 

Might be time to get my keeper graded.

 

 

looks like 9.2, i'll take it off your hands for OSPG and give you my grading notes for free

That'll hit a 9.4... maybe 9.6 on a good day unless there is something that we can't see in the scan.

Another effortless transaction on some books Cal purchased from me (thumbs u

I'm trying to get back into comic collecting and am wondering why people will pay so much for high grade comics. I don't see why a 9.0 graded comic could be worth hundreds, if not thousands,more than the same comic graded 8.0. To me, the differences are so minor, why has a market been created around those differences that make them worth so much money?

 

Easy answer. The market of digital 9s was created because people figured out bronze,copper and modern comic books are virtually worthless in near mint. They figured out that near mint copies are not rare at all because of all the bagging,boarding and hoarding between 1976 and up!

So they had to create an artificial market to make some money.

9.2, 9.4, 9.6, 9.8 then 9.9

Some day we will see the 9.9 and a half!

You are trying to make it sound like there were no differentiations of grade after NM before CGC, which is of course not true.

Interesting responses.

 

I guess I understand the urge to have your comics in the best condition possible, even if as some alluded to, it might be just collectors' OCD.

 

I think I miss the time when just having a certain comic seemed to matter, as long as it was not falling apart. Now it seems having a certain key issue is not enough, but you have to have the issue In a really high grade. Maybe I'm misremembering how collecting was before CGC, But it seems like the strict condition of comics wasn't as big a concern.

I also think that old comics in low grade condition are interesting, because they can almost tell a story by their condition. You see a beat up Amazing Fantasy 15 and can imagine that it once belonged to a kid, and maybe was stored in an attic somewhere and somehow arrived at a dealer decades later. Comics in more 'perfect' grades have none of that history and character. I still have the first comic I ever bought and it's in fairly beat up condition and probably worth only a few bucks at most, but I love it more than any other comic I own. I could easily go out and buy exact issue in perfect condition, but it wouldn't be the same to me.

You are mis remembering how things were before CGC. I have never liked low and mid grade books. I just get zero pleasure from owning and looking at them. Even 15 years before CGC I was paying multiples of guide for high grade books.

Excellent transaction with Brock! Paid fast and kept up communication.

WoW. i just saw the hammer price on the tec 411. it almost reached my CGC SS 9.0 price. the book is hot.

 

It is about time, IMHO. I started picking up copies a couple of years ago, but chickened out on that 9.6 that was sitting on Clink for a while. The ask price was $1500, but when I put in lowball offers it triggered a confirm purchase at $825. Wish I had done it, because a 9.6 might be a $1500 book now.

 

After selling these two all I am down to in hand is this copy:

 

Top 5 Adams Batman cover IMO. Not easy to find in high grade either. I don't usually go after 9.8 insanity but this was too nice to pass up.

Another giveaway is tiny areas of fuzziness where the staples enter the exterior cover. I gather there is sometimes a minute movement of the cover in relation to the staples that causes it.

This is something I haven't encountered before, or maybe just never noticed it. Any chance of pics Bob?

I think the dead giveaway is when one of the cover corners overhangs the inner pages but is perfectly straight and square. It stands out to me on the books I've looked at. An unpressed book typically has a little bit of rounding on overhanging corner covers.

I think this is a telltale sign as well however it's not a guarantee of a pressed book. There are copies out there that exhibit the sharp corners even with overhang that are not pressed. Hence the guessing factor that CGC is trying to avoid.