Aman619

Thanx. I thought it had been discussed here. And we saw a scan. But perhaps we just noted it on the census. So a 9.0 would be the highest graded copy to sell? Do we know what one of them went for?

well, there are a few ULTRA CLASSIC DKR scenes that are timeless and better than anything ever done with Batman.... "This would be a good way to die." However, didn't Miller only do a handful of Batman stories, and they include DKR2 and 3? Whereas in the relatively quiet 70s comics scene, Adams version had a consistent level of excellence for years. Just a few actually, but these were th regular issues in regular continuity, not an "Imaginary One-Shot" thing -- in its own title -- that was so prevalent in the 80s.

I tried searching all 39 pages, but can anyone tell me what the CGC 9.2 copy sold for? thanx

Millers effect on the languishing Batman titles of the 80s was no more game changing than Oneil and Adams dark Batman was in the 70s. If anything, the preceding 70s Batman books were far worse than those pre 1986 before DKR!. both of these new directions kick started Batman sales and interest . It was the eras that were vastly different that caused a proliferation of Batman titles in the mid 80s, not DKR. The Late 80s were a boom time in comics: new distribution, higher prices new formats (graphic novels,) Independent publishers springing up, plus the B/W indie explosion too, etc. Innovation in the early 70s was staid compared to the 80s: limited to sword and sorcery, Kung fu and horror titles ... ushered in by a new generation of Boomer artists and writers taking over. Outside of new genres gaining popularity, superheroes 9and the whole industry) were pretty much on a death spiral leading to the impending Calamity of 1977 --`IMPLOSION . Frantic exploration for anything that would stick as newsstand dealers increasingly ignored comics as money making products worth shelf space.

I think, in retrospect, what happened was this. I read the original annual reprints when they came out on newstands, at least until I was caught up. Same with D.C. I never thought about the art being same as the comics or different. (Who cared back then?) many years later as newer reprints wre released, probably the milestones, I bought the early ones and noticed how horrible and different they looked. I think these images were some of the ones I have seen online too since they are easiest to come by for anyone doing research on early stories etc. i think given my overall theory that Marvel and D.C. always took the shorted and easiest path, I saw this bad artwork and assumed that they went the simplest route, that they had picked up their existing original stats from the actual comics. But, the new digital approaches were around by then. so, by the 90s, Marvel no longer had the original artwork to use (it had either been handed back to artists, or stolen years ago) so embarking on a new "permanent" digital solution must have seemed like the way to go. ( They may in fact have used some of the Marvel Tales issues since buying expensive single issues to destroy in the process would have been far more expensive ( Collectors Item Classics costs pennies compared to a copy of FF 3! anyway, I'm still guessing.. but there ought to be a few pros out there from the bullpen in the 90s who know the answer. But I think this is what I "remembered the early reprints " as being hand drawn. But, I'm still unsure what just the earliest issues looked so crappy. Or was it all of them?

Ok. I became more ineterested to do some followup research on my statement about early redrawn marvels s for reprints. I have seen many examples of badly redrawn pages, however I cannot honestly say where they were taken from. Many were internet images without saying where they were taken from. Ive tried to find them, and see that many online images were just overly cleaned up scans for clarity , losing details in order to remove the "dated" 60s printing dot look, but clearly taken from the printed comics. i also looked thru all the pages of the first six Marvel Collectors Item Classics this week. And all the pages appear to be originals. I haven't looked at more recent issues because if they had the earliest issues artwork or stats to work from, chances are later ones weren't missing either. Nor have I dug out early Marvel Tales issues or the individual titles Annuals So, sorry for my misleading statement earlier. I know Ive seen bad re tracings, just thought they were in the earliest annuals. they have been used a lot, But I honestly can't say for sure where. I think I'll try the Masterworks next. Computers were around by then and I recall techniques like Theakstonizing etc, which were considered better methods to use than the early stat and film days. But since these involved starting with colored pages, digitally stripping away the colors tends to mess up the black lines. At that point they'd have to either leave a messy line, or clean it up causing a badly hand drawn or digital vector line instead. unca Ben, I didn't quote your post before typing, but you covered it well. I agree with all of it.

you can "dupe" stats and film over and over again and there will be loss, but the lines themselves are the same . Im talking about hand redrawing of the black lines to be recolored again for reprints. And the problem that forced tracing by the bullpen was missing and/or misplaced artwork pages and stats under deadline. Check out the early Marvel Tales and compare with first printings.

Lots of fun in this thread. As for Kirby's artwork in general, using Marvels reprints to compare his early work is deceptive because many of not most of the early issues were retraced (from published comics) by the bullpen guys when published in the early annuals. The artwork has a watered down look, badly drawn as you see in some of the first panels you selected. Much worse than the overal lack of detail Ayers provided in the first dozen of so issues. Also his inkers in the beginning did not translate Kirby's pencils as lavishly as SInnott and Stone did. So they don't become the established tight Kirby look until the 30s and 40s issues. The Kirby dots may have always been in the pencils, in varying forms of perfection but not inked the way Sinnott did them which solidified the tight Kirby look. ive often meant to sit down and research which reprints match the original comics and which were redrawn. As for why they did this, boils down to necessity -- can't find the art or the negs? Who cares, Trace it... has to be at Sparta next week. At some point they got their act together and organized all the pages and film/negs.

This mya be circular reasoning, but one definition of a key book is, when say you are selling your OO collection to a dealer, and his reaction to your collection and his financial offer is directly proportional to the amount of, and condition of, only your keys. And he says something along the lines of "I can give you X for these 15 books, or X times 1.1 for the whole lot (say 15 long boxes) the definition of a key book is what's in that small pile.

I'm a buy and hold guy too, and my advice was along those lines. I wasn't saying buy now to flip. But, buy something now that will increase over time, and won't have a shelf life where you could hold on to it too long. Time has always been my friend with all the comics Ive bought. But, I was buying many many years and cycles ago. Way before the media exploded comics awareness ! I don't see much out there at prices I still think have upside left. However, we old timers often suffer from sclerotic vision where we have bought so many comics at such cheap prices relative to today, that the new reality looks overpriced up and down the line. And it's difficult to remember that there still may be room to grow from here due to new collectors who only know this new reality of values. if enough new collectors see Ms Marvel 1 as cheap at today's prices, who are we to say otherwise? THere could be enough demand to keep prices rising. But the supply factor will come into play at some point. Bronze books are not scarce by any means. The census is very sobering and would put a damper on my enthusiasm for these books.

Ignore the two 90k sales. All copies that came to market after them have sold for far far less. Around 30k I believe. It was a moment of irrational exuberance at auction. back to your question though, it's hard for many of us to give advice on comics like MS Marvel 1 today when we know these books you are seeking as common dollar box books prior to their recent status as "hot movie first appearances". Certainly that makes them exciting and more valuable, but questionable as "investments" the idea when investing in comics is to catch them before the run up, and none of these books fit that profile any more. thats not to say that they won't increase any higher... but the downside is far more likely. Meaning when the heat passes, after the movie opens, you are sitting on a stale investment and others will also be looking to unload theirs . Not a sellers market for you. If if this is your budget range for playing in the comics market, I'd look for something more stable, been popular for longer, that may still have a movie announcement upside play to it.

I don't think the old teams could beat the best teams of today. These guys are far more athletic. And they have absorbed ALL the best moves of ALL previous players who were so special in their day. The moderns teams guys are (nearly) all like Jordan's, making moves that very few could do twenty years ago, let alone 30 or more. time marches on. It's like Doomsdays origin (in a small way!) time has honed today's kids os they are making moves they've have seen on TV and improved them. heres a better example-- extreme sports. Used to be you could to a flip in the air and make people ooh and ahhh. Now you have to do a triple with rotations and twists and let go of whatever you were jumping with just to be average.

I was so psyched to watch #2 that I ponied up 15 bucks last night. Waiting for the usual 5$ on demand fee but couldn't keep waiting. Well, wish I had. so different from the first one. That was a single minded revenge story. The old story about guys messing with the wrong guy getting what's coming to them by a relentless all powerful hero who can't be stopped. .. but is forced into action. Plus a glimpse of a secret society of international trained killers and assassins. You rooted for Wick as you learned more and more about him and his life. but in #2 they just use the same plot -pretty much. Give him a villain who has wronged him and he fights thru insane obstacles to accomplish his mission. But this time there's no mystery about him, or the world he works in who all know him as the bogeyman. So it's just one long fight shoot after another and he never gets hit with a bullet even against odds of 100 to one. 9and he shoots and never misses too.) there was no wonder, no surprise. Yeah even dispensed with the typical scene where he is caught and minutes from being killed by the bad guys. There's no wonder at how will he get out of the jams, just more tedious chase and fight scenes with little suspense that he survives. so clearly I was less than excited and quite disappointed with the sequel. Wick is no longer an unknown quantity, but they better find some way to keep it interesting, unless you just wanna watch more run and gun and never get hit Chase scenes. Oh, and his adrenaline must pump pretty good cause he gets pummeled by cars, stairs, falls and blows with zero lasting effects.

Are they listed to appear on tV or a movie?

Thanx. It was a lot of fun. Just some photoshop collaging and a lot of cloning. Oh no, not the Spidey Clone!! Hardest part was avoiding all bright colors, and figuring out how to end the street that ditto started to describe... and what's in the background behind Spidey. Ditko left it blank with nothing to work with.

Here's another opinion. If you want to collect XMen for fun buy any issues you want. High or low grade and have fun. If you think you really want to be able to look back at some point and be "smart" because they are worth more than you paid? Only buy the few keys and first appearances in the run. They are all most collectors want anymore, where there's a lot of demand that pushes up values continually over time. high grade copies of run of the mill issues just don't increase in value anymore. 9.4s are stagnant and in many cases sell for far less than the first few copies to appear in the market. first appearances of major characters have always been a good way to go. Lately first appearances of ANY character that ever shows up on TV and Movies sees its prices skyrocket. So you could get lucky seeking Hg copies of obscure (for now) characters and hope for the press release.

What the heck does that price mean? Looks like a Seinfeld joke taxi driver name tag..

...Spidey is still gonna swing right into that building, but ...

Since we are back on topic -- sort of -- and discussing the Kirby vs Ditko versions of the AF15 cover, I thought I'd repost this version I did a week before the old boards went away. I never saw a comment which I hope was due to the switchover.! we have all seen ditkos rejected cover art, but I always got the feeling that it lookd so inferior to Kirbys far more serious and powerful art due to the dashed off coloring it got when first published years later on newsprint in one of the annuals. So he it is with the same dark moody coloring and graphics as the published cover. we can still debate which artist captured the character better. But I think is a much closer contest with comparable coloring.

No. It's like an ongoing party. All kinds of people show up. The ones who stay and make friends all learn to get along with each other, coexist in the same room by following the same rules we follow in the real world. Be civil, avoid arguments . Listen to what others are saying , even about you. And if lots of people are commenting on your poor behavior and people skills, it's not them, it's you. If this were a real party where we look everyone in the eyes, and feel the shame of being saying things that are not received well, you'd have changed your tack , or left the party. But it's the internet, so you're able to close your laptop, and come back and fire off more tone deaf posts and feel just fine about it. While the rest have to ignore you or implore you to wake up, enjoy the party and the conversations, etc. ive been here since 2003. Seen many many oddballs blast onto the scene relishing in their posting style and bombastic online created persona, and the fuss they stir up and the resistance they seem to crave. At some point they all leave because they realize -- why be "that guy" at the party? and then the next joker shows up. Rinse and repeat. It's tedious, but mostly the embarrassment one feels witnessing the same sorry spectacle over and over again. This is what people here have been trying to get you to understand. But hey, you're having fun right? That's all that counts on the internet.

Stan only replies in one sentence answers now... because, in reality, so much of this is in his faraway past... just not that important.

It's going to be hard to get the answer from someone who actually was there. Assuming a kid on the press run was 20 in 1960, he is 77 now and long out of comics biz. Stan would know, having made the deals, perhaps, but they say he's getting frailer.

These are cool!

How are you sure all were printed in the US? I must have missed that detail. however, one overriding factor applies: whatever was done the reason was because it was the cheapest solution at the time. If all versions were in fact printed here in the US at Sparta, perhaps the big clue is the short 5 month period we are seeing the three versions. That they juryrigged a solution that led to what we are trying to unravel for just a short while until they figured out a cheaper more efficient way. Let's say Atlas is producing comics solely for the US for years. Then they make a deal for Thorpe, and they agree to produce and ship them their comics. Then at some point later on, they need more 10c cover priced copies Sparta would still have the plates, so the new 10c should look same as the first printed US copies. Or, maybe as I have heard happen back then, the original plates are unusable again. In this case they'd figure out the cheapest way to go... and that may have been to edit the U.K. Film. overall I agree wth your goal to determine the order of the printings as the hobby is moving in that direction for all ages,

One more thing.. to me the "proof" that the variants were not printed here in the states for the other distribs is that if they were, Marvel would have easily done away with the whole white box workaround, and just stripped (created final film) for every price variation worldwide as a knockout from the color plates as they appear in our US printings. (Knockout referring to type that appears white within the artwork itself.) to do that you must have access to the actual color separations shot from the artwork plus the color seps (from Eastern Litho in most cases). Atlas and Marvel paid for that step to produce the US editions. As cheap as this whole business was all around, the simple method was to do the white box thing and just send the other distribs a dupe set of film... same set to everyone. Cheap and easy and out of Marvels hands.