Pedigreed or not pedigreed?

[DrWatson]

I know that the MH2 pedigree is not the pinnacle of the pedigreed book pile. However, MK and I were having a discussion in another thread and it came up that CGC is no longer recognizing the MH2 pedigree. How can they pedigree a group of books, slab some with that designation on the label and then decide that it is no longer a recognized pedigree?

[DKB]

Cause it's their slab. And cause Chuck only paid em so much.

[RedRaven]

How can they pedigree a group of books, slab some with that designation on the label and then decide that it is no longer a recognized pedigree?

 

Couldn't live with the shame?

[TheWatcher]

They put down the crack pipe

[DrWatson]

So, MH2 is no longer a recognized pedigree and I use the term loosely with this set?

[TheWatcher]

Yes. It's esssentailly a warehouse find. Chuck bought out the backstock of a drugstore, or something. Hardly what you would call pedigree material.

 

 

 

Angelo

[Timely]

Chuck had a pallet of MH2 books in the back of his warehouse that he had forgotten about. CGC gave those books the MH2 designation, as it came straight from the source.

 

CGC does not recognize any other MH2 books because the "Certificate of Authenticity" that was given out with each book is just a piece of paper that is easily switched with any other book. The Cert is not specific to any single issue.

 

Hope that helps!

 

West

[TheWatcher]

Here's a link to Chuck's "Tales From The Database" where he talks about the MH II collection

 

 

http://www.milehighcomics.com/tales/cbg65.html

[RedRaven]

Chuck had a pallet of MH2 books in the back of his warehouse that he had forgotten about. CGC gave those books the MH2 designation, as it came straight from the source.

 

CGC does not recognize any other MH2 books because the "Certificate of Authenticity" that was given out with each book is just a piece of paper that is easily switched with any other book. The Cert is not specific to any single issue.

 

Hope that helps!

 

West

 

Man shucks!! And we were probably only 5 posts away from the Sarasota Illimunati theories

[Red Hook]

Chuck had a pallet of MH2 books in the back of his warehouse that he had forgotten about. CGC gave those books the MH2 designation, as it came straight from the source.

 

CGC does not recognize any other MH2 books because the "Certificate of Authenticity" that was given out with each book is just a piece of paper that is easily switched with any other book. The Cert is not specific to any single issue.

 

Hope that helps!

 

West

 

Man shucks!! And we were probably only 5 posts away from the Sarasota Illimunati theories

 

Hadn't heard of that one. Intriguing.

 

Anyway, just remember, it's never anything complicated. It's usually just about the money.

[nearmint]

Or it's about what West described above.

[Guardian Comics]

They also did it with the Diamond Run books as well (no longer recognized by CGC), so a precedent has been set.

 

Jim

[fingfangfoom]

What? My Mile High II copies denote title and issue on the Cert.

 

Okay. So what about certain Bowling Green copies? I have a Thor which has a Bowling Green certificate but does not note title and issue. The book was purchased from Ritter so I'm comfortable its a legit pedigree copy (sans the notorious date stamp I might add). All the Big Apple copies I've purchased from Steven have a cert in them but do not note title and issue. My Oaklands are just a sticker, I could easily switch out with another book.

I have Boston copies with just a sticker. No title, no issue #

 

Also, for all the whining done about Chuckster, the average grade on my Thor mile High II copies is 9.2...not spectacular by any means but not absolute garbage either. I do agree that it should not have been assigned as a pedigree but the horse it out of the barn here. You made a decision, don't switch the rules after the fact.

 

As far as Diamond Run copies go my certificate notes title and issue as well.

I'm not getting this whole pedigree thing.

I'm going to end up with a pile up books with certs that once received CGC recognition that will never be graded because "the rules have changed".

 

The next pedigree assigned should have mandatory front and back cover scans in triplicate...of course that'll work until they hit the clean and press factory.

 

 

[Red Hook]

Or it's about what West described above.

 

Which isn't to say that money didn't have something to do with it. CGC is a business after all, right?

[rodan57]

But it's just a warehouse find. The collection was hundreds of thousands of books that were part of a huge fraud. These books should have been destroyed when the original distributor declared the books unsold (affavit returns).

 

As Chuck relates in Tales from the Database: "... the seller told me that his father had made arrangements to pick up large quantities of comics every week from a certain very large East Coast newsstand distributor (who shall remain nameless...), and that this arrangement had been in place for decades. Given that there were quite substantial stacks of single issues in the deal, and that other boxes were completely full of issues that were mixed up, but that all came out in the same month, it seemed highly likely to me that these books were the fruits of some sort of affidavit return arrangement. Even more disturbing, I saw many instances where there were entire unopened case lots of certain issues of comics, where the distributor obviously never even put the books out for sale."

 

Dennis

[deathlok]

Or it's about what West described above.

 

Which isn't to say that money didn't have something to do with it. CGC is a business after all, right?

 

Of course, and they are making money like it's growing on trees.

[fingfangfoom]

Again, I am in agreement that it should not have been designated a pedigree however the fact remains that there are hundreds of books currently in slabs with the notation. I have raw copies that have certs that state title and issue and I just feel that it should be noted were I to submit the book for grading. Why not honor the cert and just center the placement of the notation ie Nic Cage Collection?

Perhaps change it to Mile High II warehouse copy?

 

As for the Diamond Run it makes no sense at all. I have graded copies with the notation and I have raw copies. So now if I want to grade the remainder the DR notation will be excluded from the label? Ridiculous.

From a different standpoint, how would you like to be a pedigree collector, pay the overmarket price for a pedigree copy and then watch it be "delisted" from the CGC roll of recognized pedigrees three years later.

 

I'm going to finish up my pedigree Thor run and just ignore pedigree copies in the future.

 

 

 

[rodan57]

Good points. Let's view this from a slightly different perspective.

 

These books may not be pedigree books from an exemplary collection but they do have provenance.

 

Perhaps the question should be whether or not these books have an historical significance to the hobby and should be labelled reflecting this?

 

My 12¢

Dennis

[Red Hook]

Well, they do have historical significance. Chuck says so.

 

But seriously, a warehouse find imho should be considered differently than a pure pedigree. But then, I consider myself a hardliner when it comes to pedigree designation.

 

Red

[DrWatson]

...CGC does not recognize any other MH2 books because the "Certificate of Authenticity" that was given out with each book is just a piece of paper that is easily switched with any other book. The Cert is not specific to any single issue.

 

Hope that helps!

 

West

 

Wouldn't that also be true with any other pedigreed book? Especially ones that do not have any distinguishing characteristics. I know there are unslabbed pedigree books with only the COA, for lack of a better term, to distinguish them from other copies. So, what is there to prevent those books from being switched, other than someone keeping a running record of who has owned the book?

 

Ultimately, it sounds like the barn door was shut after the horse had already gotten out.