The prices some people are asking for O/A are Ridiculous!

[malvin]

 

And I've never said I should have the final say in determining the price. I said the market (i.e. the buying public) should. And on auction sites they do, which is why I find the end of an auction a much better guide to a fair market value, than some gouging dealer's website price.

 

 

I've said this before, auction prices is not always market price, just 1 bid increment above the 2nd highest bidder who saw the auction that week.

 

If something has a buyer and seller, that is market price. If someone prices something above market, it won't sell.

 

The next time you go to a store to buy a big ticket item, or a car or a house, you should say that they are gouging you and not charging market price and demand that they put it on open auction to determine the right price.

 

I'm surprised that you agree that auction sites represent market value, considering how adamantly you oppose selling of sketches (even paid ones) because you want to keep prices low so "everyone" can get one. I still don't understand why someone who claims to love artists want them to give away money when they sketch.

 

Finally, I'm not taking this position b/c I'm some sort of rich guy buying stuff for myself and crushing the proletariat. I'm priced out of alot of things. I drive a Toyota and not a Bentley. I don't and will probably never have a Jim Lee commission, but I don't complain about my lot in life.

 

Malvin

 

PS Someone quote me or else I would be talking to myself..

 

 

[Shootydog]

The market will reflect what the market will bear. If there are people spending the big bucks on OA than thats what the market is dictating as the price. Having 1 fine piece or 10 fine pieces is really not much of a difference, IMO. I will gladly shop for those pieces I really want and save money as I go.

 

I have already been given an outrageous quote this year and its helped me learn a lot about the hobby and which ones to avoid (coolines).

[westform]

I don't think that auction prices are necessarily 'market prices'. We are not selling corn or soybeans so the spot price of a piece on any given day can be deceptive. There are many reasons why an auction price can be skewed. If too many like things are auctioned, then the dollars get spread too thin. It also may reflect a cash on the barrel price that is not the norm in our hobby. Many of us have become accustomed to time payments or partial trade deals; if we are forced to cough up cash on a given day then it may be harder to bid as strongly as we would otherwise. And, really, most sellers don't give two hoots if they receive all the money at once, or spread out over two or three months. Ok, if interest rates go to 20% that may all change but for now it is almost a wash. Also, an auction can be all about timing of the order of pieces auctioned. For instance, in the upcoming Heritage auction there are two pieces I am interested in. It is tough because I would slightly rather have the second piece but if the first piece goes for a bargain then I will buy it.... at that point I will have to pass on the second, even though I would have been a strong bidder otherwise. If the seller of the second piece had just offered it to me a strong but fair price I would just buy it now, but if I wait and bid at auction, I will have to pass on the first and potentially not even get the second.... Oy! In other words, if I had simply been offered the second piece at 5k and bought it maybe even with time payments, then that would be the 'market' price. But, I may not even be a player on that given day of auction so who knows, it could go for 3k without me pushing the envelope... so what is the market??

 

Also, back to my spot price analogy; these really are one of a kind items and that makes it even harder to obtain a 'market price'. Even similar pieces can have wide values to different collectors based on nostalgia, character content, artistic preferece or historical significance. Everyone knows this to be true and yet we still strive to reach for that stabilizeing market price. Are all Kirby prehero splashes the same?? I would venture that the market value ranges from 4k to 80k or so for similar yet different pieces. If one auctions for 10k does that mean that is the market and you can use that as a buying tool to coerce a seller into lowering his price... doubtful...

 

 

I've said this before, auction prices is not always market price, just 1 bid increment above the 2nd highest bidder who saw the auction that week.

 

If something has a buyer and seller, that is market price. If someone prices something above market, it won't sell.

[artcollector9]

Purchase price has nothing to do with selling price. If you buy a color Krazy Kat SUnday at a flea market for $35 (which happened long ago in NYC), is it only 'moral' to sell it at 2-3X that price? OF course not.

 

Roughly speaking 10-25% above what we consider fair market value might be reasonable if the piece is of high quality by a name artist.

 

However, there are too many dealers who regularly price art at 200-300% of market value, and I shun them. I was offered a piece a year ago for 5K firm, no negotiating possible, and I passed. I JUST bought that piece at auction for $2200--fair market value. Dealer loses, I win.

 

I love a bargain, I'll pay market value, I'll pay A BIT above market value for better pieces, but I won't support gougers.

 

There are a few big dealer who don't really negotiate, and I note that their inventory is (too?) large, and few items move.

[Meeley Man]

So what is an acceptable mark-up for OA before it reaches the "gouging" criteria?

 

If a dealer/colector buys a piece for "under market value" should they then post it for sale at "market value?"

 

If they buy the piece for "market value" can they increase the price by 10%? 20%? What's fair?

 

What about art reps? They don't even have to pay for the art they sell, so why aren't they giving it to me?

 

Mike

 

and as an aside, I think this thread is losing value rapidly!

 

Okay, taking it by the numbers (and let me note, I'm not saying MY answers are the "law" here, but I'm merely giving my thoughts on the questions Mike asked, nothing more, so no attempts to say I'm dictating the rules for everyone, because I'm not, just giving you my idea of what would seem to be fair and I don't expect everyone to agree.):

 

1. I'd say anything over 50% mark-up over market value starts to reach the gouging criteria. If a piece has a MV (what I'll use to term Market Value from this point) of 5K, then if a dealer is going to ask more than 7.5K, that's gouging the consumer base.

 

2. It would depend on how much under MV they bought it for. If it were only slightly under (say10-15% under MV or less), then to sell it at MV isn't a worthwhile thing to do. Now, if it was bought for a steal (say 50% or more under MV), then to sell at MV would be the right thing to do, as they have plenty of "elbow room" to even sell it at a discount and still make a worthwhile profit.

 

3. As with the first question, up to 50% above MV (provided the peiece was bought at MV) would be fair to both a buyer and dealer (giving both room to negotiate a price and be happy with it). Of course, this would also depend on what exactly the piece is (cover should yeild a higher profit percentage, than say a panel page with no know characters). Anything above the 50% mark-up would be considered gouging.

 

4. While reps do not pay for the art, they also retain less control on it, than a dealer who handles art they purchase themselves for resale. A rep has to defer to the artist in pretty much all matters. Including pricing and discounting. It's not as if the artist just gave them the art for nothing and want nothing more to do with it. The rep is the custodian of the product and work on behalf of the artist, who might not have the time, business skills, or inclination, to handle the details of a sales transaction. So, unless the artist just wanted to "give the art away," a rep has not the right (legally or morally) to do that.

 

5. I concur with your aside, which will probably make this my last response on the topic (at least, I hope it can be).

[Meeley Man]

Purchase price has nothing to do with selling price. If you buy a color Krazy Kat SUnday at a flea market for $35 (which happened long ago in NYC), is it only 'moral' to sell it at 2-3X that price? OF course not.

 

Roughly speaking 10-25% above what we consider fair market value might be reasonable if the piece is of high quality by a name artist.

 

However, there are too many dealers who regularly price art at 200-300% of market value, and I shun them. I was offered a piece a year ago for 5K firm, no negotiating possible, and I passed. I JUST bought that piece at auction for $2200--fair market value. Dealer loses, I win.

 

I love a bargain, I'll pay market value, I'll pay A BIT above market value for better pieces, but I won't support gougers.

 

There are a few big dealer who don't really negotiate, and I note that their inventory is (too?) large, and few items move.

 

Thank you, for taking a reasoned approach to what I've been saying. I completely agree with most everything you've said. (thumbs u

[Claudio]

 

And I've never said I should have the final say in determining the price. I said the market (i.e. the buying public) should. And on auction sites they do, which is why I find the end of an auction a much better guide to a fair market value, than some gouging dealer's website price.

 

 

I've said this before, auction prices is not always market price, just 1 bid increment above the 2nd highest bidder who saw the auction that week.

 

If something has a buyer and seller, that is market price. If someone prices something above market, it won't sell.

 

The next time you go to a store to buy a big ticket item, or a car or a house, you should say that they are gouging you and not charging market price and demand that they put it on open auction to determine the right price.

 

I'm surprised that you agree that auction sites represent market value, considering how adamantly you oppose selling of sketches (even paid ones) because you want to keep prices low so "everyone" can get one. I still don't understand why someone who claims to love artists want them to give away money when they sketch.

 

Finally, I'm not taking this position b/c I'm some sort of rich guy buying stuff for myself and crushing the proletariat. I'm priced out of alot of things. I drive a Toyota and not a Bentley. I don't and will probably never have a Jim Lee commission, but I don't complain about my lot in life.

 

Malvin

 

PS Someone quote me or else I would be talking to myself..

 

(thumbs u

[Claudio]

 

And I've never said I should have the final say in determining the price. I said the market (i.e. the buying public) should. And on auction sites they do, which is why I find the end of an auction a much better guide to a fair market value, than some gouging dealer's website price.

Personally, I am finding fault with how you determine market value. That is why I don't think your rules apply to me. I also don't think I am selfish for choosing my own path.

Really, you guys need to actually respond to what I've actually written here, not what you THINK (wish?) I said, or make this about me (i.e. with personal insults directed at me), so you can feel that you discredited my actual points. It is a very weak debating tactic and doesn't address what was actually written by me.

You are the tool that first disagreed with me for something I didn't say. I am not attacking you on actual points you have made. I was using sarcasm and exaggeration to show a point. It's not a weak debating tactic. I am just making fun of you. That's all. But, yes, I have resulted to calling you names now... I figured if you accuse me of it, I might as well do it! It's kind of fun. Thanks for giving me the idea. It's your best one yet....

 

[Claudio]

By the way, I have never paid 2x what I thought a piece was worth... That would be crazy. However, I reserve the right to do so if it is a piece I am (even more) crazy about. And I would be happy to do so if that dealer was the one to bring it out into the open for me. They should make a profit but they also take the risk on of alienating too many collectors and building up too much inventory.

 

Like I said, I think it is better they gouge me than it go to a black hole.

 

AND I think I got a good deal out of the Donnelly's once. They were D- pages though!

 

 

[Galactus]

Just want to add a personal observation - Its amazing how often artwork that has not been added onto dealers websites yet, are quoted privately via the dealer, at prices that are 30% (or higher) more than the price the artwork is actually priced at (when you have rejected the piece) on the dealers site,

 

Do you think this is because the dealers believe they can get away with over charging for these pieces privately ?

That they believe that because you have expressed interest in the past, they can get away with overpricing ?

Or is it pure greed and lets see what price sticks attitude ?

[Meeley Man]

Just want to add a personal observation - Its amazing how often artwork that has not been added onto dealers websites yet, are quoted privately via the dealer, at prices that are 30% (or higher) more than the price the artwork is actually priced at (when you have rejected the piece) on the dealers site,

 

Do you think this is because the dealers believe they can get away with over charging for these pieces privately ?

That they believe that because you have expressed interest in the past, they can get away with overpricing ?

Or is it pure greed and lets see what price sticks attitude ?

 

Personally, I think it's a bit of all three. But that's just me.

[cujobyte]

I said auctions to not (necessarily) represent market value. So by disagreeing are you saying that they always do? Chris stated some good reasons why these may have been bargains. Also, these auctions closed the same weekend of Wondercon and Mega Con (I think). I do think that auctions can be very representative of values but they can also be way off. You just have to research.

 

As far as figuring out a fair market value, and not just letting dealers buy it and double (or more) the price and calling THAT "market value?" Yes, I'd say public auctions ALWAYS give you a fair idea of market value.

 

As for the qulaifiers you noted, true enough that such things might keep an auction from going higher than it does. But then, there are people who will pay "stoopid money" for a car, well beyond the suggested retail price. That doesn't nullify the fact that the actual market value of the car is less than that. Just as dealers who buy a piece at auction and double (or more) the price, shouldn't be seen as the ones who are showing the "market value" of OA.

 

If you are asking me for a 100% foolproof way of gleening "market value," at this point, given how this peticualr system is allowed to work, I can't. But auction sites final price is as fair as anything could possibly be, at this point. Certainly way more fair that a dealer buying up stuff and exponentially raising it from what they paid.

 

Complaining about flippers can help (I know I am hesitant to buy from certain dealers because of what I have read on these boards) but I also accept they're here to stay and I won't worry too much about what others are doing. Like I said, I think it is better if "they" had my grail piece than if a black hole collector had it.

 

But if you validate the delaer (or flipper) by paying the price they are asking, knowing it is way above what a fair market value might be, you keep the problem going. You become an enabler to a system that keeps prices artifically high.

 

In any other consumer product line of business, if a business overcharges on the product it won't move. This is why some dealers hold on to peices for VERY long periods time. But rather then bring the price down to something more realistic, in terms of a fair market value, they keep the price up (or, as with the Donnelleys, continue to raise it higher over time). This creates an over-inflated value on the art, which is not representative of what it is actually worth. This is, in part, why the economy is in the tank. Over-inflated prices on stocks and securities, kept high by banks and lenders, which eventually came tumbling down like the house of cards it was. The same will happen to OA at some point. But as long as nostalgia drives collectors, not the desire for a more fair and reasoned marketplace, prices will continue to remain high, which is why, despite the poor economy we have, OA has been pretty much unaffected (and in some cases has gone up).

 

So, expect ridiculous prices to continue, because the dealers aren't going to stop doing it, as long as there are fools who will pay them to over-inflate the market value of OA. And good luck to us all, when this house of cards comes crashing down.

 

Hello all,

I'm very new to the O.A. comic scene, but have a rough knowledge of other art scenes, considering I know a lot of artists up in Santa Fe, own a bookstore and have read a lot about this in the last couple of months.

 

I wanted to write and thank you all first for helping this fellow boardie out. You all have been very helpful in my understanding of the OA market.

 

I will state that I happen to agree with this post a LOT. Except the last line that OA has been unaffected. I'm sure specific pieces of course are unaffected, but I've been finding more and more deals on pages, and even covers, showing up on ebay with 0 bids, or going for low money. Of course other pieces, Adams, Kirby, etc are in another realm all their own. My point being that anything can be affected. Last August, a ton of comic book dealers would have led you to believe that Amazing Fantasy 15 would be double by this time, 8 mo's later, and of course that is not the case. Just the way the market goes.

 

I do want to state one thing. These type of manipulations in prices do have an effect on us new guys. At least the few that I know who are getting into OA. If you are familiar at all with modern comics, you will know that each year there are less and less readers. Therefore, less collectors in the long run. I love my hobby. I love to read comics, collect comics, and am currently writing my first comic. So it pains me to write that the hobby as a whole could be vanished by the time I'm in my 50-60's.

 

Anyways I want to ask you guys if any of you feel the bottom could fall out of the OA market? I fear that those that say "No" may only write that with their own interests in mind. I ask you not to do that, but to step back and look at the hobby as a whole. I'm just curious of the overall attitude of the fellow boardies on this forum.

 

I thank you all once again.

[artcollector9]

Dealers will always ask a premium for a private sale.

 

The reasoning is that the buyer should be willing to pay a premium in order to guarantee getting the piece. We are asked to pay above market value in exchange for getting a right of first refusal.

 

I was once offered a great Frazetta piece at 8K, a little too highly priced at the time...seller said fine, if you pass, I'll go through my list of 20 Frazetta collectors at full price--if no one takes it, I'll come back around to you, and take counter offers.

 

I took the piece, because I reasoned SOMEONE would have taken it at that price. I agreed to pay a slight premium in order to lock out the competition. It was the right decision for THAT piece,though I have also passed on similar situations.

 

That's why pieces we pass on at higher prices are often found on dealers lists at lower prices later, or at auction at even lower prices (if the reserve i reasonable or if there is no reserve)... and that's why top shelf pieces are usually sold through private sales--in order for dealers to collect this 'guaranteed ownership premium.'

 

 

[CollectingFool]

I wish I had checked in and seen this thread before it became a debate. Anyway, in general there are three types of prices:

 

Auction Prices: Usually the max you can get for a piece at that time from the people who know about it and are able to pull the trigger.

 

Retail Prices: Always marked up to account for overhead and a decent return on the money invested. Most retail markups are anywhere from 30%-100% depending on how fast the item sells and the cost. (not comic art, just regular retail)

 

Insurance Value: Usually 1.5 to 2 times what an auction price or retail price would be on something rare or unique. This takes into account the likelihood of finding a comparable piece available.

 

Now, I too did a double-take when I saw Burkey put up those pieces from Heritage. He did what EVERY dealer does, it's just that we're used to the pieces getting "buried" for a while so we forget it was just available for 1/2 the price.

 

That being said, I think this is still a relatively small market and that people who are willing to pay $14K cash for a piece of nostalgia are limited and would know about Heritage if they know about Burkey. That does not preclude the ultimate dealer profit maker, TRADE. Get a piece for $5K cash, mark it $10K and negotiate down to $8.5K ($4K cash, $4.5K trade). Get a ton of pieces you've knocked down the prices on in negotiation and wind up with $4K cash and $7K in retail value on smaller, easier to sell pieces for your $5K investment. It happens constantly and it's why dealers with available cash and large inventories are always able to wheel and deal. Also why trade is more attractive to some dealers than others.

 

The only thing different about this particular incident is that someone pointed it out. Normally these things get noticed but are only talked about among collectors for fear of retribution from the dealer. In a hobby where items are one-of-a-kind the last thing anyone wants is for their grail to end up in the hands of someone that has a grudge against them.

 

I'm glad to see it was brought up and discussed. It's such a common part of the hobby people should be aware how it works. It's also the engine that drives dealers and escalating prices. The more collectors know about the market they're in and how it works, the better position they are in I think.

 

Ruben

http://www.collectingfool.com

[stinkininkin]

I wish I had checked in and seen this thread before it became a debate. Anyway, in general there are three types of prices:

 

Auction Prices: Usually the max you can get for a piece at that time from the people who know about it and are able to pull the trigger.

 

Retail Prices: Always marked up to account for overhead and a decent return on the money invested. Most retail markups are anywhere from 30%-100% depending on how fast the item sells and the cost. (not comic art, just regular retail)

 

Insurance Value: Usually 1.5 to 2 times what an auction price or retail price would be on something rare or unique. This takes into account the likelihood of finding a comparable piece available.

 

Now, I too did a double-take when I saw Burkey put up those pieces from Heritage. He did what EVERY dealer does, it's just that we're used to the pieces getting "buried" for a while so we forget it was just available for 1/2 the price.

 

That being said, I think this is still a relatively small market and that people who are willing to pay $14K cash for a piece of nostalgia are limited and would know about Heritage if they know about Burkey. That does not preclude the ultimate dealer profit maker, TRADE. Get a piece for $5K cash, mark it $10K and negotiate down to $8.5K ($4K cash, $4.5K trade). Get a ton of pieces you've knocked down the prices on in negotiation and wind up with $4K cash and $7K in retail value on smaller, easier to sell pieces for your $5K investment. It happens constantly and it's why dealers with available cash and large inventories are always able to wheel and deal. Also why trade is more attractive to some dealers than others.

 

The only thing different about this particular incident is that someone pointed it out. Normally these things get noticed but are only talked about among collectors for fear of retribution from the dealer. In a hobby where items are one-of-a-kind the last thing anyone wants is for their grail to end up in the hands of someone that has a grudge against them.

 

I'm glad to see it was brought up and discussed. It's such a common part of the hobby people should be aware how it works. It's also the engine that drives dealers and escalating prices. The more collectors know about the market they're in and how it works, the better position they are in I think.

 

Ruben

http://www.collectingfool.com

 

Everything you said makes sense Ruben.

 

I would be interested to hear more about the insurance valuation you mention. Are you saying those values are bogus? I ask because I have insurance on my art, and besides the feelings of loss I might feel about one or more pieces of my art that might get stolen or destroyed, I would not be at all happy with just a "market value" claim on my insurance, since I consider many of my pieces practically irreplaceable. And even if one tried to claim the 1.5 to 2 times market value you quoted, how likely would it be for an insurance company like CIA to pay such a claim? Again, just curious what you were trying to get at.

 

Scott Williams

[CollectingFool]

Hey Scott.

 

I'm not saying I disagree with how insurance values are estimated, just showing the differences. Because what we collect is unique, the premium added to the value is justified because finding a comparable piece may be impossible. I think insurance companies understand this and you'll only have a problem with a claim if the estimate is too inflated or if the company experts find comparable pieces for significantly less than the estimate.