Life-Span of a CGC Archival Case

[selegue]

They can warp from excessive heat. Someone posted picture of a couple of books he left in the car one hot summer day.

 

Do you mean the thread about the intentionally baked slabs? Was there also one about sun damage?

 

Graphic experiment, not for the weak-hearted

 

Follow the link to an interesting 17-page thread with some nonsense but also some very good information and links about archival materials, including technical data.

 

Jack

 

 

[Leescomics]

.... I have bought plenty of comics collections that were sealed in saran wrap that was yellowed and stuck together with age. Ripping the wrap often revealed very nice books. I am sure that without this Saran wrap, the books would not have been as nice. I have yet to see a bag damage a comic book. Tape, on the other hand can be quite dangerous to covers, if snagged.

 

...

 

I agree with everything you wrote with the exception of Saran Wrap. If it was old Saran Wrap, I'm very surprised by your comment. Old Saran Wrap was polyvinyl chloride (PVC) loaded with plasticizers (including phthalates, probably dibutyl or dioctyl but I'm not positive which). PVC breaks down on heating to give acids including HCl, which catalyzes pulp breakdown. The plasticizers were slowly released even at room temperature to give a sticky mess that dissolves cover inks. I've bought some books with that problem. Some US plastic wraps (e.g., Reynold's) are still PVC, but if they're intended for use with food, they don't contain phthalates. Some do contain the approved plasticizer DEHA (di(2-ethylhexyl)adipate), which can also leach out on long-term storage.

 

Maybe the books you found were in new Saran or Glad Wrap, which fortunately are polyethylene (identical to inexpensive comic-book bags) with no plasticizers. One to avoid is Saran Original Premium Wrap, which is poly(vinylidene chloride) -- similar to PVC -- containing plasticizers.

 

Tape -- yeesh. If I were putting my books in bins for ham-fisted collectors to paw through, I'd tape them, but generally I pull off and throw away the tape as soon as I receive a bagged comic book. I have gotten a few bargains on otherwise primo books with tape pulls over the years.

 

Jack

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In the days before comic book bags, people would sometimes use whatever materials were at hand to seal their comics and protect them. That's one of the reasons that we have some of the high grade Golden Age collections that exist. Bill Gaines wrapped his EC comics up in butcher paper. Other people wrapped their comics up in Saran Wrap, newspaper, or placed them in file folders. While these materials may not be ideal, I believe that it was much better to use them, than to use nothing at all and expose the books to air. Even if the wrapper degrades, the book inside is unhurt, in my experience. I've been buying collections non-stop since 1977.

 

I have not personally seen Saran Wrap caused damage on comic books, but I will take your word for it if you say you have.

 

- Lee

 

 

[selegue]

...

 

I have not personally seen Saran Wrap caused damage on comic books, but I will take your word for it if you say you have.

 

 

In fact those are the only books I've ever bought that were obviously damaged by the material they were wrapped in, so in general you're right. You could actually see an image of the books' inks on the plastic wrap -- sort of a Shroud of Turin effect. I'm 90% sure that the plastic was genuine Saran Wrap -- it's fairly distinctive. Maybe the books you've encountered were actually in "Brand X" polyethylene wrap, the same as standard comic-book bags.

 

Jack

[sterlingcomics]

It's ironic that expensive Mylar bags are not sealed at the top, and can let air right in, which quickly degrades a comic. They are not good for long-term storage, unless you seal up the books in a box.

 

It's this very reason why I moved away from the more expensive Archives to the more economical (but does benefit the book more) Mylites2.

[Leescomics]

...

 

I have not personally seen Saran Wrap caused damage on comic books, but I will take your word for it if you say you have.

 

 

In fact those are the only books I've ever bought that were obviously damaged by the material they were wrapped in, so in general you're right. You could actually see an image of the books' inks on the plastic wrap -- sort of a Shroud of Turin effect. I'm 90% sure that the plastic was genuine Saran Wrap -- it's fairly distinctive. Maybe the books you've encountered were actually in "Brand X" polyethylene wrap, the same as standard comic-book bags.

 

Jack

 

I appreciate your input.

 

I've seen that shroud effect on many occasions. It's kind of like picking up pictures with Silly Putty. Even when a small amount of ink is removed, it doesn’t necessarily mean that the comic is detectably degraded. I’ve seen lots of glossy, beautiful, mint, white paper books come out of sticky, welded together, yellowed, Saran Wrap that bore a faint image of the cover on it.

 

I’m not ashamed to admit that tearing high-grade books out of those awful wraps is one of my great pleasures! That never gets old for me.

 

Even a Post-It can lift a bit of color, but you can’t detect the damage to the spot where it was lifted.

 

- Lee Hester

 

[comicdonna]

...

 

I have not personally seen Saran Wrap caused damage on comic books, but I will take your word for it if you say you have.

 

 

In fact those are the only books I've ever bought that were obviously damaged by the material they were wrapped in, so in general you're right. You could actually see an image of the books' inks on the plastic wrap -- sort of a Shroud of Turin effect. I'm 90% sure that the plastic was genuine Saran Wrap -- it's fairly distinctive. Maybe the books you've encountered were actually in "Brand X" polyethylene wrap, the same as standard comic-book bags.

 

Jack

 

I appreciate your input.

 

I've seen that shroud effect on many occasions. It's kind of like picking up pictures with Silly Putty. Even when a small amount of ink is removed, it doesn’t necessarily mean that the comic is detectably degraded. I’ve seen lots of glossy, beautiful, mint, white paper books come out of sticky, welded together, yellowed, Saran Wrap that bore a faint image of the cover on it.

 

I’m not ashamed to admit that tearing high-grade books out of those awful wraps is one of my great pleasures! That never gets old for me.

 

Even a Post-It can lift a bit of color, but you can’t detect the damage to the spot where it was lifted.

 

- Lee Hester

You seem to have great knowledge on this subject, and it is greatly appreciated! (thumbs u

[buttock]

It's ironic that expensive Mylar bags are not sealed at the top, and can let air right in, which quickly degrades a comic. They are not good for long-term storage, unless you seal up the books in a box.

 

It's this very reason why I moved away from the more expensive Archives to the more economical (but does benefit the book more) Mylites2.

 

On the contrary, without some way to vent or absorb the gases from aging paper you could actually damage your books by sealing them in Mylite-2s.

 

People like to say how much the dry Denver air contributed to the MH collection, but the fact is that it was the books being stacked feet high (and thus compressed, but vented) that likely led to their excellent state of preservation. The Aurora collection doesn't have near as nice of paper as the MH books, yet was stored in the same city, and is in most cases a younger book. The MHs that did have lesser paper quality were from the top of the stacks - and thus more exposed to the elements.

 

An ideal way to store books would be stacked like this - probably alternating each one in its direction - in stacks about 4 feet high, all in mylar sleeves (no board) with an open top. Then put something heavy on top of them to smash them down. But the key would be not to handle them...and I like to play with my books.

 

 

[Leescomics]

It's ironic that expensive Mylar bags are not sealed at the top, and can let air right in, which quickly degrades a comic. They are not good for long-term storage, unless you seal up the books in a box.

 

It's this very reason why I moved away from the more expensive Archives to the more economical (but does benefit the book more) Mylites2.

 

On the contrary, without some way to vent or absorb the gases from aging paper you could actually damage your books by sealing them in Mylite-2s.

 

People like to say how much the dry Denver air contributed to the MH collection, but the fact is that it was the books being stacked feet high (and thus compressed, but vented) that likely led to their excellent state of preservation. The Aurora collection doesn't have near as nice of paper as the MH books, yet was stored in the same city, and is in most cases a younger book. The MHs that did have lesser paper quality were from the top of the stacks - and thus more exposed to the elements.

 

An ideal way to store books would be stacked like this - probably alternating each one in its direction - in stacks about 4 feet high, all in mylar sleeves (no board) with an open top. Then put something heavy on top of them to smash them down. But the key would be not to handle them...and I like to play with my books.

 

 

I'm afraid I have to disagree with this. The very best collections I found over the years were sealed up in footlockers, chests, and trunks for a 50-year period with no airflow whatsoever. The Mile High collection was sealed up by virtue of being surrounded by other books. The books on the inside were better than books on the outside. The books on the outside were more prone to suffer from dust shadows and other defects due to exposure to oxygen.

 

Gaines completely wrapped his comics up a dozen at a time in butcher paper. He then put these bricks of comics in stacks at the bottom of his closet. They don't seem to have suffered from the lack of venting.

 

The golden age was 50 years ago, and oxygen will take its toll over time.

 

The CGC container seals off the air completely. This is a good thing. I don't imagine that the bit of paper they put in there does much. (Is anyone out there sticking "micro chamber” paper in their raw books? I don't bother.) If the micro chamber paper does anything at all, I would imagine that sealing off the air still has many thousands of times greater of an effect on preserving the book than that paper.

 

As for stacking them in Mylars with the tops exposed, I suppose it's better to do that than to not stack them with their tops open. Stacking them will reduce the damage to the tops of the books where the air flows in because it will reduce the surface area exposed. Alas, there will still be damage, as there is still paper that is exposed to harmful oxygen.

 

Even better would be to seal them up in five-cent bags (or Mylights if you want to get fancy). Sealing them in a box would add another level of safety. (I like to seal off the handle holes on a comic box.) You can add a trash bag around the whole box to further seal it and prevent water damage, and bugs if you really want to be paranoid.

 

Now put the whole thing in a climate-controlled environment and allow them to age for a respectable 50 years. I believe that they will come out in the same condition that they started.

 

Make sure to PM me in 50 years and let me know how your preservation method worked, so we can compare. I'll be a spry 96!

 

Regards,

 

Lee Hester

[buttock]

Lee,

 

The Gaines file copies generally have below average paper quality (often getting CR/OW or even CREAM from CGC). I'm not sure of the exact storage conditions that contributed to that, but all things considered equal that would argue that sealing them did NOT do much for the aging of the paper, and possibly advanced it.

 

"Sealing" something in a footlocker, chest, closet, etc still allows for venting of any decay products. It is exceedingly rare for something like that to be airtight.

 

Additionally, the CGC holder does not eliminate air. There is still air in the chamber. If it were vacuum sealed, that would be a different story. Barex is an excellent barrier to air exchange, but as I've stated - venting is probably something you want. Not full exposure to air, but enough to allow for any harmful materials to waft away. I'd venture a guess that the byproducts of aging are more harmful to paper than ambient air - but I'll defer to selegue and others who certainly know more. Note that I'm not saying air isn't harmful, just that it may be the lesser of 2 evils.

 

Overall, I think you want to minimize exposure, but allow just enough to circulate away the bad stuff (which isn't much).

 

In 50 years, I'll be a vibrant octagenarian chasing the sexy 75 year olds around the nursing home. I'll bring a few over and we'll have a party. They'll love to see our books!

[rodan57]

Is this going to be a chicken or the egg thing? If left open, oxygen hastens decomposition. If sealed, harmful gases cannot escape.

 

Let's rephrase the question: if left sealed and kept from oxygen, will the harmful gases be created? In other words, if sealed and hidden from light, heat and humidity--- will the process of chemical decomposition be so slow as not to generate harmful off gasing?

[Leescomics]

I agree with you, the gases if they exist are very minute and are easy vented under most storage circumstances. I've never vacuum sealed a book.

 

You're on for that meeting 50 years hence!

Keep your hands off that 75 year old with her own teeth. She's mine!

 

- Lee

[The Madness]

Thought this thread needs a

 

Just wondering if the CGC holder is actually better than using Mylites, Fullbacks, and Microchamber paper when it comes to preserving?

[ChrisInBaltimore]

Thought this thread needs a

 

Just wondering if the CGC holder is actually better than using Mylites, Fullbacks, and Microchamber paper when it comes to preserving?

 

Did you read the thread? Having read the thread now, it does not seem like it...

[Green]

Thought this thread needs a

 

Just wondering if the CGC holder is actually better than using Mylites, Fullbacks, and Microchamber paper when it comes to preserving?

 

Nope. People grading books to 'preserve' them are doing it wrong.

[Buzzetta]

Toast just found a safety deposit box filled with unprotected Golden Age comics in what seemed like nothing more than bags and boards.

 

I am okay leaving the comics I wish to permanently keep in CGC cases until I am dead and then leave it up to whomever to determine what to do with them.

[The Kaptain]

Toast just found a safety deposit box filled with unprotected Golden Age comics in what seemed like nothing more than bags and boards.

 

I am okay leaving the comics I wish to permanently keep in CGC cases until I am dead and then leave it up to whomever to determine what to do with them.

 

I agree. It's like worrying about when the Sun will burn out.

 

By that time it happens it, you won't mind because you will be long gone.

[DamageInc-migration]

Hey Everyone,

 

I was just curious if anybody out there would like to chime in and help me and the rest community on the topic of the life span of a CGC case.

 

I know its' supposed to be real sturty and archival safe, but I have heard many people saying you should replace by getting it reholdered every 7 years.

 

Some people I have talked to will only hold a book in a CGC case if they plan to sell the book and crack open the book if they want it for their own personal collection and put the book in a Mylar or Mylite and save the CGC label.

 

I am sure this topic has been brought before, but I haven't seen it talked about since I signed up, so I was wondering if we could get a discussion going on this.

 

Let my education begin..............

 

Wow, look at that, SOT used to be nice and polite!

[Green]

Toast just found a safety deposit box filled with unprotected Golden Age comics in what seemed like nothing more than bags and boards.

 

I am okay leaving the comics I wish to permanently keep in CGC cases until I am dead and then leave it up to whomever to determine what to do with them.

To me its not about acids or gasses or any of that. Its the SCS , staple tears and warping that cgc cases create. I have a 9.4 white page pedigree with a detached cover due to a cgc case to remind me of the "protection" a cgc case offers. And all that said, I still dont crack my slabs

[Sqeggs]

Toast just found a safety deposit box filled with unprotected Golden Age comics in what seemed like nothing more than bags and boards.

 

I am okay leaving the comics I wish to permanently keep in CGC cases until I am dead and then leave it up to whomever to determine what to do with them.

To me its not about acids or gasses or any of that. Its the SCS , staple tears and warping that cgc cases create. I have a 9.4 white page pedigree with a detached cover due to a cgc case to remind me of the "protection" a cgc case offers. And all that said, I still dont crack my slabs

 

[Mister_Comics]

...

 

I have not personally seen Saran Wrap caused damage on comic books, but I will take your word for it if you say you have.

 

 

In fact those are the only books I've ever bought that were obviously damaged by the material they were wrapped in, so in general you're right. You could actually see an image of the books' inks on the plastic wrap -- sort of a Shroud of Turin effect. I'm 90% sure that the plastic was genuine Saran Wrap -- it's fairly distinctive. Maybe the books you've encountered were actually in "Brand X" polyethylene wrap, the same as standard comic-book bags.

 

Jack

 

I appreciate your input.

 

 

I've seen that shroud effect on many occasions. It's kind of like picking up pictures with Silly Putty. Even when a small amount of ink is removed, it doesn’t necessarily mean that the comic is detectably degraded. I’ve seen lots of glossy, beautiful, mint, white paper books come out of sticky, welded together, yellowed, Saran Wrap that bore a faint image of the cover on it.

 

I’m not ashamed to admit that tearing high-grade books out of those awful wraps is one of my great pleasures! That never gets old for me.

 

Even a Post-It can lift a bit of color, but you can’t detect the damage to the spot where it was lifted.

 

- Lee Hester

 

I recently seen this happening to backing boards. Looked like the book was stored for a long time in the polybag with board. The back cover image was on the backing board. The back cover didn't look damaged in any way from just looking at it.

My only concern is ok the book wasn't moved for who knows how many years. Say the book is moved and the board shifts. Will the image on the backing board now transfer back to the back cover giving it a double image effect? I don't know because I never seen this sort of thing before. Only just recently.