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I'm stunned...

Started by AlexH,

195 posts in this topic

joe_collector

joe_collector

Posted
Posted
I remember those ads... and I remember I never bought a single book from them.

 

Me neither, but a lot of other people did.

 

I'm not saying that the "limited, gold foil, spectra enhanced, signature DF, retailer incentive" crash was the ONLY cause of the mid-90's comic book crash, but it was still an influence.

 

These manufacturered collectibles always crash from their 'current hype" levels, and as with the mid-90's, I don't think this will do the overall back issue market any good.

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Zonker

Zonker

Posted
Posted

Let's back this train up a minute...

 

We're a small sub-set of the overall comics market here. (Though IMHO a far larger sub-set than is healthy for the market; but more on that in a minute).

Most of us believe it makes perfect sense to pay a 10X (or much more) premium for a key in Near Mint+ versus an average VG back issue of the same book. This is a consensus within our little community of high-end CGC-graded comics collectors. Despite the fact that 25 years ago the spread between Good/Fine/Mint was more like 1/2/3, and as recently as the mid-1980s was something like 1/3/6. Likewise, the consensus within our community is that 30 cent or 35 cent variants are "legitimate" collectibles. From the discussion on this thread, it is clear there is no similar consensus on a premium for things like the RRP books.

 

But I would submit that outside this little community, an average comics reader would think that it was equally insane to pay huge multiples for price variants, for slabbed CGC 9.8s, or for RRP books.

 

Joe, sometimes I cannot tell when you make a distinction between "accidental collectibles" (a term I just made up) and "manufactured collectibles" (your term), whether you're saying

a) you bet a.c. books will have longer legs than m.c. books, and you advise people to spend money (if they really want to spend money on comics, that is wink.gif) on a.c. rather than m.c. books; or

b) you're personally offended that m.c. books even exist, and are making a moral (or perhaps simply an aesthetic) judgement about the existance of m.c. books.

 

So I would argue that whatever the pricing on RRP books does or does not do, it has little effect on the larger comics market. Like Valiantman, I would contrast that with the early 1990s gimmicks across entire print runs that eventually sunk not only the back-issue market, but also the new comics market.

 

My final point though is that the collectors still make up a larger percentage of the whole comics buying market than is healthy IMHO. Perhaps with the number of TPB readers today it is a healthier mix than during the fanboy/retailer speculation of the early 1990s, but still tilted too far towards us hobbyists. In that respect, Joe may be becoming more and more correct.

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FlyingDonut

FlyingDonut

Posted
Posted

Thank you for making my point entirely. The insufficiently_thoughtful_person who pays $2500 for a slabbed CGC 9.8 RRP Batman 608 has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH THE BACK ISSUE MARKET .

 

The back issue market will churn along quite nicely, thank you. I see absolutely NO parallel between somebody buying a Batman 608 and the great crash of 1995.

 

Valiantman makes an exceptionally valid point - the reason why there was a crash was because there were entire lines of comics (Image. Valiant. Plasm.) that were being hyped beyond belief and were sucking out huge sums of cash from the buying public. Superman 500 is a great example.

 

I can't see how one book has anything to do with the vast universe of comic buyers. I just don't see it. And again, I believe this book unslabbed has legs.

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valiantman

valiantman

Posted
Posted
These manufacturered collectibles always crash from their 'current hype" levels, and as with the mid-90's, I don't think this will do the overall back issue market any good.

 

Hmmmm...

 

In the mid-1990s...

When you traded all the "over-hyped Valiants" for Silver & Bronze age books,

did that hurt the back issue market for Silver & Bronze books?

Or are they doing better today than they did then?

 

What was damaged by the "crash" of, say, Youngblood #1 Gold?

It looks like only Youngblood was damaged by that book.

 

I think it's logical that the "potential damage" for Batman 608 RRP

would damage other books like Batman 608 RRP.

 

In fact, whoever "loses" $2K on Batman 608 RRP would probably either

go away altogether (but they didn't belong in comics to begin with)...

or they would look for a more sensible way to invest $2K in comics.

 

Either way... I think "back issues" (Golden, Silver, Bronze) are safe.

 

There might be a lesson learned... again... but it's the same lesson as before...

Don't spend $2K on a one-year-old book, when $2K buys a nice 30-year-old key.

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joe_collector

joe_collector

Posted
Posted
a) you bet a.c. books will have longer legs than m.c. books, and you advise people to spend money (if they really want to spend money on comics, that is wink.gif) on a.c. rather than m.c. books; or

b) you're personally offended that m.c. books even exist, and are making a moral (or perhaps simply an aesthetic) judgement about the existance of m.c. books.

 

Accidental Collectibles may not be entirely correct, but the term does work on many levels. These are products designed for one use (disposable entertainment) that have, over a long period of time, transformed into collectibles. This is the natural lifecycle, whether you're collecting comics, cards, coins or GI Joe figures.

 

Now these Manufactured Collectibles try to run straight from A to Z, and skip all those years of fan growth, valuation and increased demand. Straight off the press and directly into thousand-dollar EBay auctions. Sorry, but things don't work like that over the long-term, and the only entity that can print money in the US is the Treasury Department/US Mint.

 

Manufactured Collectibles are a grift, a scam, a hoodwink of the highest order, and are designed to emulate "Accidental Collectibles" without progressing one single step in the natural lifecycle. It goes back to INTENT; DC is actively printing these limited edition incentives to make retailers more money; it's a Get Rich Quick scam, and these "retailer incentives" exist ONLY to lure weak-minded speculators into laying their cash down.

 

They have no other purpose. That's what they do, that's all they do, and they won't stop until they've sucked the speculator market dry!

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Comic_Diva

Comic_Diva

Posted
Posted

I don't know if this has been said, but does anyone else feel like this is the 90's all over again. I can remember a company called IMAGE that made a living off of variants (gold, silver, limited, yellow...... "retailer" whatever). I almost fell into this trap again, but flash backs saved me.

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Darthdiesel

Darthdiesel

Posted
Posted
Does anyone else think that the price of this is waaaaaaaaay overboard???

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2197773540&category=17076

 

And it has 4 1/2 days left. 893whatthe.gif

 

Yeah, I think it's overboard but won't make a prediction on whether or not it'll sell. Just takes one insufficiently_thoughtful_person I suppose. I admit, I do not understand the mentality here with what some of these moderns are selling for. Whatcha' think Darth, will it sell?

 

(Darth knows all ........ ooo.gifooo.gifooo.gif)

 

 

Hi Herb - while I certainly don't know all, I think the price is justified. PLease see my agreement with Flyingdonut regarding the "long legs" on this book. I'm not saying you should spend this $$ on it, but I know there are some Lee/Loeb Batman fans who will bid high on it...same few that didn't win the other 9.8 RRP...

 

Wish I was selling it thumbsup2.gif

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Lantern

Lantern

Posted
Posted

...incentives to make retailers more money...

 

hmmmm...retailers actually trying to make more money. Wow, what a concept, people in the for profit sector trying to make money. I just cannot imagine what they are thinking.

 

893scratchchin-thumb.gif

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Darthdiesel

Darthdiesel

Posted
Posted
The real killer for me was when I noticed that the same seller has not one, not two... but 3 copies...of this book up for auction. And here I was starting to think that it was rare.

 

893whatthe.gif

 

 

We all know that this book has limited distribution but there's is only ONE 9.8...the guy tried 3 times to strike gold (10.0), but only once did he come close...the others will sell for around what the unslabbed will in same condition, slightly more but not the multiples that the 9.8 will fetch. 893naughty-thumb.gif

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Darthdiesel

Darthdiesel

Posted
Posted
The nurse on duty at the loony bin must be on lunch break, and the convicts have taken over her computer to bid on eBay. 893frustrated.gif

 

Regardless of which are bidding it up, this is the kind of behavior that is going to do serious damage to the back issue market.

 

I would disagree Joe, since these bidders are not interested in back issues per se. The are chasing high grade Moderns which is a completely separate market and mentality. I would also disagree with any comparisons to what that amount of money would buy in other genres. Obviously these bidders have the money to spend, but why would they plop it down on Silver Age or even a high grade Hulk 181 when that is not their interest. To each their own and let them rue the day they bought it if it ever comes to that. These guys know enough when spending this money and they should be able towithstand the consequences if the bo9ok dips in price in the future but all of us will be foreheadslap.gif if it multiplies in demand in the future.

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Darthdiesel

Darthdiesel

Posted
Posted
The designation of DEALER INCENTIVE is starting to worry me..... frown.gif

 

Yeah, that's the way it was in the Old Speculator Days, where dealers would continue to get these high-priced incentives, and the market exploded and lined their pockets bigtime.

 

And I think we all know how that turned out...

 

to be fair, retailers got this for FREE and put it out there on eBay...or some sold it at their store for a moderate mark-up and then you have guys/fanboys who slab it and get it signed and get multiples on eBay...far removed from the dealers/retailers who initially got them ?

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Darthdiesel

Darthdiesel

Posted
Posted
Speaking from have a "couple" of Signature series books, this is totally outragious. Jim Lee is not impossible to get an autograph from. These "incentive" books will kill the industry if they continue...OH MY STARS AND GARTERS, Joe is right... gossip.gif

 

why didn't you or Peter get one of these signed? 893scratchchin-thumb.gif893frustrated.gif I would have rather given my money to guys I know and who do this fairly often????

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joe_collector

joe_collector

Posted
Posted
...incentives to make retailers more money...

 

hmmmm...retailers actually trying to make more money. Wow, what a concept, people in the for profit sector trying to make money. I just cannot imagine what they are thinking.

 

I think they should work at improving customer service, get more new readers in the door and continue to expand their product selection. Counting on this kind of pie-in-the-sky incentive crapola to pay the bills long-term will drive a lot of them out of business.

 

DC is trying to print money using limited edition, manufactured collectibles, and that scam never works for very long....

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Darthdiesel

Darthdiesel

Posted
Posted
The sale of this book affects the back issue market absolutely zero.

 

Of course, but if you're wrong, and these retailer incentives actually (gasp) decrease in value in the future, then it will have a serious backlash.

 

Joe, it dips in price and then what - only the speculators are supposedly spending this much on these books...so they are out of the hobby - how does that affect the back issue market (and no drawing paralleles to early 90's and Valiant crash allowed) wehre "true collectors" are buying and these are the same guys crying for the "evil" speculators to be gone. wouldn't a dip in these retailer variants prices/values actually be benficial in the end to "true" comic fanboy/collectors?

 

Help me see the light...

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joe_collector

joe_collector

Posted
Posted
I would disagree Joe, since these bidders are not interested in back issues per se. The are chasing high grade Moderns which is a completely separate market and mentality.

 

I would remind the court that Darth stated the exact same thing concerning multi-thousand-dollar CGC copies of Origin, Spider-man 36 WTC, among other Modern over-hyped, "strike while the iron's hot" books that have since cooled off quite significantly.

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Darthdiesel

Darthdiesel

Posted
Posted
I would disagree Joe, since these bidders are not interested in back issues per se. The are chasing high grade Moderns which is a completely separate market and mentality.

 

I would remind the court that Darth stated the exact same thing concerning multi-thousand-dollar CGC copies of Origin, Spider-man 36 WTC, among other Modern over-hyped, "strike while the iron's hot" books that have since cooled off quite significantly.

 

While you are correct that these have cooled off and more accurately, undergone a correction (origin and ASM 36 CGC higrades/DF signed/sketches are still selling considerably higher than their modern contemporaries, even if not as high as "while they were hot") ...you just don't see these books being flipped anymore..either they are in the hands of people who intend on keeping them or are not regretting their purchase and may hold for longer before selling.

 

And to be fair... and balanced

 

BTW RRP = Recommended Retail Price 27_laughing.gif

 

 

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