Question about FALSE first appearances (ie., Wolverine)

[BradleyX2]

But Overstreet lists Logans Run 6 as first Thanos

 

 

First Thanos solo story.

[FlyingDonut]

I don't have an Overstreet handy. Is it maybe 1st solo Thanos story?

 

Logan's Run 6 is the first SOLO Thanos story.

 

Another stupid one - first appearance of Venom (discounting the retconned Web of Spider-Man 18 and 24) is Amazing 299 last page, not 300.

[bronzilla]

No it is listed in Overstreet as first Thanos, You are right in your list.. Starlins Thanos Saga is some of the best work ever produced for MARVEL..IMHO.

As I remember the Thanos back up story in Logans Run was a sort of one shot Thanos alone sort of story...I dont think it had any other major heros.

[seanfingh]

 

It's a fabulous story. I think Mike Zeck drew it.

[bronzilla]

OOPS yep you guys are right...I re-read the description..First solo story!!

[bronzilla]

It's a fabulous story. I think Mike Zeck drew it.

I have to re-read that was it Zeck across all the different comics?

I was thinking Starlin did some of the art.

[Sharkey]

A cameo appearence is a low profile appearence by a famous person. Find me a definition that refutes that.

 

As Wolvies last panel appearence is neither low profile,nor by a famous person it isn't a cameo appearence.

Perhaps the word "cameo"has other meanings,but the phrase 'cameo appearence" means just that.

 

The word "cameo" does, in fact, have other meanings, and "cameo appearance" can generically mean a brief appearance not necessitated by a well-known entity.

 

According to Merriam-Webster's dictionary (a more comprehensive and trusted source than Wikipedia folks), cameo is defined as:

 

..."4 : A small theatrical role usu. performed by a well-known actor and often limited to a single scene; broadly : a brief appearance or role."

 

First of all, it defines the criteria of something limited to a single scene. I believe the way cameo is used by comic book definitions often means a single panel or scene of the story, which is in the spirit of the dictionary definition.

 

The end of that definition (after "broadly") denotes that a broader definition or use of the word "cameo" is a brief appearance or role; generically it can mean any brief appearance or role, and is used as such.

 

With many words, the meaning changes over time, as bastardized forms of usage become so pervasive that they are accepted as new definitions and usages. Hence people use cameo to indicate any brief appearance. That may not have been the original definition but has become an acceptable use of the term over time and is recognized by Merriam-Webster's.

 

--Steve

(Yes, I am an English major and work in the editorial and publishing field)

[seanfingh]

It's a fabulous story. I think Mike Zeck drew it.

I have to re-read that was it Zeck across all the different comics?

I was thinking Starlin did some of the art.

 

No, I just mean the LR six pager. I think Zeck did that.

[cd4ever]

Iron Man 55 first brief Thanos.."Cameo"?....BIG BUCKS!!!

 

Logans Run#6 First full Thanos.. A whole back up story!!! little itty bitty bucks.

 

Consistency would be nice.

IM 55 was way more than a Thanos cameo. He appears quite a bit.

[Mac Man]

A cameo appearence is a low profile appearence by a famous person. Find me a definition that refutes that.

 

As Wolvies last panel appearence is neither low profile,nor by a famous person it isn't a cameo appearence.

Perhaps the word "cameo"has other meanings,but the phrase 'cameo appearence" means just that.

 

The word "cameo" does, in fact, have other meanings, and "cameo appearance" can generically mean a brief appearance not necessitated by a well-known entity.

 

According to Merriam-Webster's dictionary (a more comprehensive and trusted source than Wikipedia folks), cameo is defined as:

 

..."4 : A small theatrical role usu. performed by a well-known actor and often limited to a single scene; broadly : a brief appearance or role."

 

First of all, it defines the criteria of something limited to a single scene. I believe the way cameo is used by comic book definitions often means a single panel or scene of the story, which is in the spirit of the dictionary definition.

 

The end of that definition (after "broadly") denotes that a broader definition or use of the word "cameo" is a brief appearance or role; generically it can mean any brief appearance or role, and is used as such.

 

With many words, the meaning changes over time, as bastardized forms of usage become so pervasive that they are accepted as new definitions and usages. Hence people use cameo to indicate any brief appearance. That may not have been the original definition but has become an acceptable use of the term over time and is recognized by Merriam-Webster's.

 

--Steve

(Yes, I am an English major and work in the editorial and publishing field)

 

While I would agree with JC's interpretation, I appreciate your bringing a more established source into the discussion Rhino. Considering the fallibility of Wikipedia as pointed out by Stephen Colbert, I ALWAYS point out the potential pitfalls of relying on it as a sound resource.

 

I think the biggest problem with this issue is what has been mentioned already: inconsistency. I think OS needs to tighten up its use of the word and apply the same rules to all characters. While I realize plenty of time has gone by in many of these examples already given, it's not impossible to go back and make the changes. Most fields of study make new discoveries and adjust as a result. I don't think it'd hurt the comic collecting world either

 

I think the problem with using the word cameo is that carries the broad notion of a brief appearance as JC and Rhino have pointed out. This does not, however, necessarily mean a first appearance. If we moved into a designation of 1. first brief appearance and 2. first full appearance, we're able to clear this confusion up right away. If a character first appears in a comic and it's a full appearance as well, then a simple first full appearance notation works. Sure, it requires some revision of the accepted standard. But for the sake of consistency and accuracy, I think it's worth the effort.

[nickwire]

if i remember right, though i could be off, isent john constentine in crisis before his 1st app in swampthing, but that gets no mention in guides?

[jools&jim]

1. first brief appearance...

 

But as somebody already pointed out (I think), Wolverine's first appearance in one panel of Hulk #180 isn't really a "cameo appearance" in any meaningful sense of the word. Implicit in the idea of "cameo" is that whomever is briefly appearing (in the film, play, novel, comic book, etc.) is already (even from just a quick glimpse) more-or-less known, or at least potentially recognizable, by a reader/viewer.

 

I tend to disagree with JC that cameos are precluded from comic books on general principles, but that being said, it's still pretty clear to me that Wolverine's "first brief appearance" in Hulk 180 is just that -- a first brief appearance; any subsequent single-panel or similarly brief appearances in other titles/stories/etc. would, by definition, be much closer to a more widely accepted notion of "cameo".

[Mac Man]

1. first brief appearance...

 

But as somebody already pointed out (I think), Wolverine's first appearance in one panel of Hulk #180 isn't really a "cameo appearance" in any meaningful sense of the word. Implicit in the idea of "cameo" is that whomever is briefly appearing (in the film, play, novel, comic book, etc.) is already (even from just a quick glimpse) more-or-less known, or at least potentially recognizable, by a reader/viewer.

 

I tend to disagree with JC that cameos are precluded from comic books on general principles, but that being said, it's still pretty clear to me that Wolverine's "first brief appearance" in Hulk 180 is just that -- a first brief appearance; any subsequent single-panel or similarly brief appearances in other titles/stories/etc. would, by definition, be much closer to a more widely accepted notion of "cameo".

 

Which is why you'll note I made the differentiation between first brief appearance and first full appearance and did not make use of the term cameo in my recommendation Wolvie's panel shot in IH 180 is a first brief appearance, but it doesn't move the plot line forward in a significant way in the same a first full appearance does as IH 181.

[Marvelguy34]

Ditto for Watchmen, their first appearance was in Watchmen #1 but they already staked claim in a house ad in another book.

[joe_collector]

Iron Man 55 first brief Thanos.."Cameo"?....BIG BUCKS!!!

 

 

Please actually open up Iron Man 55 before writing stuff like this. It's far more than a cameo, and I believe he's on 7-8 pages, along with a full body shot where he stamps on Iron Man's glove.

 

It's actually one of the LONGER first villain appearances in history.

[CAP Freak]

Like others have stated I my self prefer a full cover app over a tiny little nothing shot....

If it makes you feel better think of it is aa first cover app rather than the latter

 

Yup,

 

I would much rather own an FF 49 as opposed to a 48

And the cover is awesome aswell.

[JohnT]

You can't have a cameo appearance of an unknown character.

 

You cannot have a cameo appearance of any fictional character, or any character in a comic book.

 

[joe_collector]

You can't have a cameo appearance of an unknown character.

 

You cannot have a cameo appearance of any fictional character, or any character in a comic book.

 

 

As per the definition, you cannot.

 

A cameo is an appearance of a famous person (celebrity, athlete, politician, etc.) in a limited role, usually different from what they are famous for. We're talking a real person, not some fictional creation.

 

And even if we extend that to include fictional characters, a comic book cameo, using Arnold's/Gemstone's definition would be something like Wolverine appearing in one panel as a waiter while Nick Fury and Tony Stark have dinner.

 

He'd walk on and walk off, and everyone would be buzzing - "Hey, that was Wolverine!".

[JohnT]

You can't have a cameo appearance of an unknown character.

 

You cannot have a cameo appearance of any fictional character, or any character in a comic book.

 

 

As per the definition, you cannot.

 

A cameo is an appearance of a famous person (celebrity, athlete, politician, etc.) in a limited role, usually different from what they are famous for. We're talking a real person, not some fictional creation.

 

And even if we extend that to include fictional characters, a comic book cameo, using Arnold's/Gemstone's definition would be something like Wolverine appearing in one panel as a waiter while Nick Fury and Tony Stark have dinner.

 

He'd walk on and walk off, and everyone would be buzzing - "Hey, that was Wolverine!".

 

 

Who cares about "Arnold's/Gemstone's definition." Good lord.

 

And regarding FF48...Galactus is on the cover. In fact, he is the defining character on the cover.

[VintageComics]

You can't have a cameo appearance of an unknown character.

 

You cannot have a cameo appearance of any fictional character, or any character in a comic book.

 

JC you are a tool. It's a fictional cameo in a fictional book. I'm not saying Wolive made a cameo, that was a mistake but MJ did make a cameo in #42.