Do You Want Fries With That?

[nearmint]

 Originally Posted By: nearmint

I've had a few pressed, and I too have no intention of selling them.

 

Then I ask you too, are we talking about pressing a hard to find GA book for real aesthetic reasons, or a late SA marvel that's already in high grade? If it's the latter, it's either for eventual resale, or label-whoring, and in both cases the financial windfall that comes from the bumped up grade must be the motivator.

I've only had Golden Age books pressed, and only for aesthetic reasons. A spine roll, or non-color-breaking crease that just annoys me. I do get them re-certified, but only because I slab all of my GA.

[Timmay]

 Originally Posted By: Mac Man

I could see this being a nice option if I had the high grade collecting bug. Think about it: buy books in 8.5-9.2, and press 'em into higher grades that you wouldn't otherwise be able to afford. And the price is pretty cheap when you consider the price difference between some of these 9.2s to 9.6s ad 9.8s. <br /><br />Of course, this is coming from the stance of <i>keeping</i> the books, and I'm not so naive to think everyone will have such intentions.

 

The love of money is the roof of all evil...

Paul the Apostle in his letter to Timothy: 1 Timothy 6:10

 

or

the Latin if you prefer...

Radix malorum est cupiditas...

Leave me and my roof out of this.I never said that.

[Park]

MrBedrock,

 

I should have clarified better. I do not have a big issue with pressing. I have no big issue with Matt Nelson. You are right that my post does lump him in with the things I feel are disturbing with this hobby. That was not my intention.

 

I have dealt with Nick a few times and he seems to be a good guy. To me it is a bummer when someone I "know" wants to dump it all. That's all.

 

Play your cards right and my next "sentimental love note" could be headed your way.

 

 

[MrBedrock]

 Originally Posted By: nearmint

I've had a few pressed, and I too have no intention of selling them.

 

Then I ask you too, are we talking about pressing a hard to find GA book for real aesthetic reasons, or a late SA marvel that's already in high grade? If it's the latter, it's either for eventual resale, or label-whoring, and in both cases the financial windfall that comes from the bumped up grade must be the motivator.

In both Nearmint's and my case, we are talking about golden age. But regardless, you are making a very large assumption in what you think is the motivation behind why we have those books pressed. And frankly, whether golden age or silver age, money doesn't have to be the end sum. Aesthetics, to me, are the be-all and end-all. Is there an aesthetic to the combination of a beautiful book and a big number on the label? You bet there is!

[MrBedrock]

MrBedrock,

 

I should have clarified better. I do not have a big issue with pressing. I have no big issue with Matt Nelson. You are right that my post does lump him in with the things I feel are disturbing with this hobby. That was not my intention.

 

I have dealt with Nick a few times and he seems to be a good guy. To me it is a bummer when someone I "know" wants to dump it all. That's all.

 

Play your cards right and my next "sentimental love note" could be headed your way.

I hope Nick isn't seriously considering getting out of the hobby. He is one of the good guys. And Matt is one of the good guys too. Two good guys who play at different ends of the same sandbox. The question really is which end of the sandbox did the cat use?...But I digress.I'm looking forward to a note. (thumbs u

[adamstrange]

 Originally Posted By: CaptainOfIndustry

 Originally Posted By: nearmint

I've had a few pressed, and I too have no intention of selling them.

 

Then I ask you too, are we talking about pressing a hard to find GA book for real aesthetic reasons, or a late SA marvel that's already in high grade? If it's the latter, it's either for eventual resale, or label-whoring, and in both cases the financial windfall that comes from the bumped up grade must be the motivator.

In both Nearmint's and my case, we are talking about golden age. But regardless, you are making a very large assumption in what you think is the motivation behind why we have those books pressed. And frankly, whether golden age or silver age, money doesn't have to be the end sum. Aesthetics, to me, are the be-all and end-all. Is there an aesthetic to the combination of a beautiful book and a big number on the label? You bet there is!

I know some collectors who press because they like books to look nicer. Many, many collectors have had pressing and much more done to books to restore them with no thought of selling them so I'm not sure why you're so skeptical. If your statement was changed to say that most books are pressed for re-sale then I'd believe it to be true even though I haven't seen any statistics to back up the assertion.

[COI]

 Originally Posted By: CaptainOfIndustry

 Originally Posted By: nearmint

I've had a few pressed, and I too have no intention of selling them.

 

Then I ask you too, are we talking about pressing a hard to find GA book for real aesthetic reasons, or a late SA marvel that's already in high grade? If it's the latter, it's either for eventual resale, or label-whoring, and in both cases the financial windfall that comes from the bumped up grade must be the motivator.

In both Nearmint's and my case, we are talking about golden age. But regardless, you are making a very large assumption in what you think is the motivation behind why we have those books pressed. And frankly, whether golden age or silver age, money doesn't have to be the end sum. Aesthetics, to me, are the be-all and end-all. Is there an aesthetic to the combination of a beautiful book and a big number on the label? You bet there is!

I do believe there is a distinction between pressing a hard to find GA book for aesthetics and pressing an already aesthetically pleasing 9.2 of a common SA book into a 9.6. I failed to make that distinction in my initial response to MacMan, but that's because I was assuming he was speaking about SA, which seems to be his primary collecting focus.With that being said, if you expect me to believe that Matt's pressing business is flourishing largely a result of collectors such as yourself getting the odd, tough to find GA book pressed for mainly aesthetic reasons, I just can't do that. So yes, I'm making the assumption that the primary reason to press a book is to profit, or to bump up the grade on the label which in itself is profiting in the sense that it is raising the overall status of your collection, even if that collection is going to be locked up.And anyway, in this hobby and particularly on this board, hearing that someone has "no intention of ever selling" a book very much reminds me of wedding vows; they're made with good intentions and come from a place of "love", yet they tend to have little to meaning in the long run. Things change.I refuse to accept that you spend the money you do(I've seen some of your books ) on your collection without considering their potential resale value, regardless of whether you think you're ever going to sell or not. But that's a different topic all together. I do concede that there are instances where the act of pressing itself may not be motivated entirely by money, but I really do believe that those instances are the vast minority.

[MCMiles]

 Originally Posted By: CaptainOfIndustry

 Originally Posted By: nearmint

I've had a few pressed, and I too have no intention of selling them.

 

Then I ask you too, are we talking about pressing a hard to find GA book for real aesthetic reasons, or a late SA marvel that's already in high grade? If it's the latter, it's either for eventual resale, or label-whoring, and in both cases the financial windfall that comes from the bumped up grade must be the motivator.

In both Nearmint's and my case, we are talking about golden age. But regardless, you are making a very large assumption in what you think is the motivation behind why we have those books pressed. And frankly, whether golden age or silver age, money doesn't have to be the end sum. Aesthetics, to me, are the be-all and end-all. Is there an aesthetic to the combination of a beautiful book and a big number on the label? You bet there is!

I know some collectors who press because they like books to look nicer. Many, many collectors have had pressing and much more done to books to restore them with no thought of selling them so I'm not sure why you're so skeptical. If your statement was changed to say that most books are pressed for re-sale then I'd believe it to be true even though I haven't seen any statistics to back up the assertion.

I agree. Isn't that why we even grade comics to start with. All of us desire more aestheticly pleasing books. Most of us any way. I also agree that books are being pressed (probably the majority) to resell for more money.

[COI]

 Originally Posted By: MrBedrock

 Originally Posted By: CaptainOfIndustry

 Originally Posted By: nearmint

I've had a few pressed, and I too have no intention of selling them.

 

Then I ask you too, are we talking about pressing a hard to find GA book for real aesthetic reasons, or a late SA marvel that's already in high grade? If it's the latter, it's either for eventual resale, or label-whoring, and in both cases the financial windfall that comes from the bumped up grade must be the motivator.

In both Nearmint's and my case, we are talking about golden age. But regardless, you are making a very large assumption in what you think is the motivation behind why we have those books pressed. And frankly, whether golden age or silver age, money doesn't have to be the end sum. Aesthetics, to me, are the be-all and end-all. Is there an aesthetic to the combination of a beautiful book and a big number on the label? You bet there is!

 

I know some collectors who press because they like books to look nicer. Many, many collectors have had pressing and much more done to books to restore them with no thought of selling them so I'm not sure why you're so skeptical. If your statement was changed to say that most books are pressed for re-sale then I'd believe it to be true even though I haven't seen any statistics to back up the assertion.

I'm just generally skeptical about the notion that collectors have no intention of ever selling. I think re-sale MUST be a consideration to some degree for those who collect at the higher end of the spectrum(and let's face it, any collector who is getting books pressed for their collection is a serious collector), even if it's the collector's heirs who will be doing the selling long after he/she is 6 feet under.So if re-sale is always a factor to some degree, as I believe it is, the potential benefits to re-sale provided by pressing cannot be completely ignored.

[TheShadowKnows]

 Originally Posted By: arexcrooke

 Originally Posted By: Mac Man

So... is this going to turn into another pressing thread?

IN case you havent figured it out, it has already started out as a pressing thread.

 

Sounds more like free advertising for Matt, I hope Nick is getting a cut.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I heard he doesnt buy comics anymore

[Flaming_Telepath]

Interesting posts...from both sides of the argument. Here's where my head is...

 

I don't play with the real big boys...I have no desire to own the best registry set, nor the best available copy of a book...and I consider the froth-mouthed pursuit of the 9.6s and 9.8s and 9.9s to be ludicrous, but hey, each to his own.

 

However, I do like high grade Silver & Bronze. 9.0s through to 9.4s, raw if I can get them. My love for them stems from my youth when I would buy these things fresh off the newsstand. Back in the day, I must have read 90-95% of Marvel's output from '61 through to the mid-90s, so I'm not buying them to thoroughly read.

 

What I do love, though, is picking them up in a condition that equates to how I used to buy them...they look flawless from arms-length and it's only when you closely inspect them that the minor wear becomes apparent. Just as they were on the spinner racks.

 

I'll flick through them, soaking up the old ads, jogging my memory as to some of the storylines, admiring the art from the likes of Kirby, Adams, Steranko, Smith, et al

 

For me, it's all about the nostalgia (as I'm sure it is for a number of you) and the wide-eyed wonder of my youth. To get my hands on a double-digit issue of the Avengers that looks just as it did when I bought my first copy back in '69 is a delight. That it has made it through nigh-on forty years and retained its original condition is the icing on the cake.

 

However, for some time now, the joy has been waning. I've bought perhaps 10 books since the start of 2007. Instead, I've (barely) satisfied myself with pulling a few choice raw items from collections that have come my way, collections that I know have been compiled over the years by collectors with a real passion and love for the hobby. Collections that are either OO, or were compiled in such a way that the chance of manipulation are minimal or zero. I actually love to find a raw book that is 9.4-9.6 in eye-appeal, but has a slight corner bend which drags it down to a 9.2 or 9.0. It's a pretty good indicator that it's untouched.

 

Because I consider pressing to be restoration. Common sense tells you that pressing is restoration. The English language tells you that pressing is restoration. However, the 'industry' tells you it's not, as it's not convenient - in fact it's nothing short of disastrous - to classify it as such.

 

And it's these politics...and the utter, utter greed of way too many parties...that have slowly sapped the joy from my collecting. There is no more innocence left, no more 'fun'. It's all about the $$$ and how long and how hard and how deep you can shaft the buyer. If you don't believe me, I offer some examples for your consideration...

 

(1) Jason Ewert

(2) Heritage

(3) Danny Dupcak

(4) Production line pressing for profit

(5) bluechip's 'unrestored' restored Action #1

(6) Jeff Delaney's Batman #1

(7) eBay sellers

(8) Marketplace sellers

(9) Disbarred lawyers receiving 'awards' for collections built with misappropriated clients' funds

(10) Trimmed books still getting past CGC...and consequently being legitimised

 

And the list could go on...and on...and on.

 

It's an absolute minefield out there...all because of the adoration of money. And I'm further saddened by the fact that it is allowed to continue by the people that are being screwed at pace...that would be all of us who buy a high grade/key book.

 

Do I still love the medium? Of course I do. Do I still wish to be involved in it? Sure.

 

But I can't seem to reconcile collecting what I Iove with my ethics any longer. Hell, I can't seem to find anything to buy that isn't in some way tainted. And it will only get worse. Matt Nelson is making a decent living out of pressing and I will guarantee you that the majority of his work is for people who are maximising profits on resale. And he's churning them out like nobody's business.

 

So why aren't we seeing hundreds and hundreds of auctions/sales...whether on eBay, CLink, Heritage or dealers' sites...proactively declaring the work undertaken?

 

I think we all know the answer to that one...$$$

 

So I'm seriously considering getting out, seeing some of my own $$$ back...and putting an end to the notion that by continuing to buy high grade books, I'm simply greasing the wheels in Satan's Workshop.

[DrWatson]

This hobby has always been a mine field. However, with the invention of the Internet (thanks Al) and chat boards like this, all of the nefarious machinations are brought to light instead of just whispered about among the high level buyers and sellers. Like the old saying goes, "Times may change, but people don't." Whether you are in the hobby or not won't change that in any way.

 

I find it interesting that Matt has become a lightning rod for the pressing debate when he is far from the only one engaging in the act for profit. I guess his sin is that he is the most vocal.

 

Nick, it would be a shame for you to leave hobby; however, that is something that you must decide on your own. Just like Matt, you provide a service to the hobby that I am sure would be missed if it were found to be absent.

[Sal]

Put me in the corner of those who hope that Flaming_Hertfordshire doesn't become so jaded by this practise that he leaves the hobby altogether.

 

 

We need as many smart people in here as we can get. The fact that he's a good guy and the possessor of an unimpugnable ethical standard is icing on that particular cake for me.

 

 

 

And while I would love to see all vendors proactively disclose pressing, and commend those who do, I don't see the non-disclosure of same as equivalent to what Ewert + Dupcak did/do

[Flaming_Telepath]

Jim,

 

I agree that there have always been machinations going on behind the scenes and, as a buyer for some 30-odd years, it's always been caveat emptor.

 

Unfortunately, whilst CGC have done a lot of good for the hobby, certainly in resto detection and certainly in allowing transactions to be completed sight unseen, the advent of Big Numbers has multiplied the $$$ gain umteen-fold. Back in the 80s and 90s, nobody was running a comic 'body shop', nobody was playing the crack, press and resub game, nobody was shilling their own auctions.

 

As for Matt, he's the most visible practioner and, I would hazard a guess, also the most productive. From my own POV, he's fallen down by manipulating his own books and selling them without disclosure, when the old 'I don't know what's been done to the book in the past' argument doesn't work. Nice guy, though, and obviously a talented individual. (thumbs u

 

As for getting out, I'm only referring to keeping my own books. I'm finding it difficult to progress my collection so I wonder what is the point? If I did move them on, I'd still be reading stuff, still be selling stuff - whether it's my own or on consignment - and I've still got close to 40,000 books to process.

[Flaming_Telepath]

And while I would love to see all vendors proactively disclose pressing, and commend those who do, I don't see the non-disclosure of same as equivalent to what Ewert + Dupcak did/do

 

Neither do I...but it's all grist to the mill, isn't it?

 

And thanks for your kind words.

[MutantKeys]

Another pressing thread

[Dick Pontoon]

And it's gone 3 (or 6) pages so far without any yelling.

[Flaming_Telepath]

And it's gone 3 (or 6) pages so far without any yelling.

 

It was 6 before it got pressed.

[Jeffro.]

Nature abhors a void.

Where there is a market, there will be vendors.

There's nothing natural about this.

[MutantKeys]

You should switch up your sig with the good pics, Nick