SSSSShilling up your books at auction houses

[spookley]

Not sure of the risk/reward ratios here, but if you're sensible about it and don't lay down insane bids, I reckon you'll come out ahead. (thumbs u

It doesn`t matter how insane the shiller`s bid is, his winning price will be the increment above the underbidder. And the shiller will have to pay that full price (inclusive of BP) for the book, and meanwhile when Heritage pays the sales proceeds to him, it will be less the BP. Seriously, I can`t figure out how to get this to work.

 

 

Tim,

It would make no sense to me if the shiller shill bid his own auction to try and get a new

GPA high (since he/she could end up winning it and end up paying the BP)....but if they were shilling the bids up to a "modest level" to prevent selling it for a "bargain price"...I could see that happening....

[spookley]

Not sure of the risk/reward ratios here, but if you're sensible about it and don't lay down insane bids, I reckon you'll come out ahead. (thumbs u

It doesn`t matter how insane the shiller`s bid is, his winning price will be the increment above the underbidder. And the shiller will have to pay that full price (inclusive of BP) for the book, and meanwhile when Heritage pays the sales proceeds to him, it will be less the BP. Seriously, I can`t figure out how to get this to work.

 

Tim, thanks for dis-spelling (again) the myth about the BP.

 

Also, why shill-bid in these cases when imposing a simple Reserve would serve a similar purpose? Supposedly, you put in shill bids so that the auction doesn't end up too low. Well, the Reserve would allow for that in a much simpler manner

 

(Granted: Reserve do tend to lower the amount of bids placed ... but that's too convoluted for your average consigner so let's ignore that for now).

 

 

Agree with what Scrooge just said....It would be analogous to shill bidding to your "reserve"....we all know that auctions with reserves do not get the amount of traffic as no-reserve auctions....

 

[tth2]

Not sure of the risk/reward ratios here, but if you're sensible about it and don't lay down insane bids, I reckon you'll come out ahead. (thumbs u

It doesn`t matter how insane the shiller`s bid is, his winning price will be the increment above the underbidder. And the shiller will have to pay that full price (inclusive of BP) for the book, and meanwhile when Heritage pays the sales proceeds to him, it will be less the BP. Seriously, I can`t figure out how to get this to work.

 

 

Tim,

It would make no sense to me if the shiller shill bid his own auction to try and get a new

GPA high (since he/she could end up winning it and end up paying the BP)....but if they were shilling the bids up to a "modest level" to prevent selling it for a "bargain price"...I could see that happening....

Okay Johnny, but that winning price that is just above a "bargain price" is STILL higher than anyone else would pay. So unless you think it was just a freakishly bad auction for that book, what you`re now faced with is trying to sell that book for 20% above a price that no one else would pay, just to break even with what you could have sold it for without shilling.

 

So unless you sit on the book for a while, in which case then you have to factor in the opportunity cost of the money that you wasted (meaning to sell it for a real profit you`re going to have to sell it for MORE than 20% above the price that no one would pay), you`re going to have to trot the book out quickly. And we know what happens to books that are recycled quickly on Heritage or CL, they get tagged with a scarlet letter as toxic krap that no one wants.

[Mr. Zipper]

Not sure of the risk/reward ratios here, but if you're sensible about it and don't lay down insane bids, I reckon you'll come out ahead. (thumbs u

It doesn`t matter how insane the shiller`s bid is, his winning price will be the increment above the underbidder. And the shiller will have to pay that full price (inclusive of BP) for the book, and meanwhile when Heritage pays the sales proceeds to him, it will be less the BP. Seriously, I can`t figure out how to get this to work.

 

Tim, thanks for dis-spelling (again) the myth about the BP.

 

Also, why shill-bid in these cases when imposing a simple Reserve would serve a similar purpose? Supposedly, you put in shill bids so that the auction doesn't end up too low. Well, the Reserve would allow for that in a much simpler manner

 

(Granted: Reserve do tend to lower the amount of bids placed ... but that's too convoluted for your average consigner so let's ignore that for now).

 

 

Agree with what Scrooge just said....It would be analogous to shill bidding to your "reserve"....we all know that auctions with reserves do not get the amount of traffic as no-reserve auctions....

 

See the recent threads about Mastro Auctions. They had no reserve, but we know at least one seller was encouraged by Mastro to bid on his own auctions if he wanted to protect a certain price point.

[blazingbob]

Why do you think that the owners are the ones that shill bid?

 

If auction houses have the top bids in their books all it takes is a couple of "Bidders" to run the book up to those bids on the books. That is why I never leave a bid with a privately owned auction house. Amazingly that book always seems to sell right near my top bid.

 

A Shill technically is not trying to win their book back, they are either trying to prevent a bargain or do what I stated above. My experience with some auction houses is that they don't want bidders to get "bargains", hence the "Employees can bid" whereby the auction house can buy the book and sell it later.

 

When auctions where just phoning in and being there in person it was much easier to gauge auction bidding. You could see who you were bidding against or gauge the phone bidders. Allowing internet bidding or the "house" in allows way too much leeway for manipulation on big ticket items.

 

 

[spookley]

Not sure of the risk/reward ratios here, but if you're sensible about it and don't lay down insane bids, I reckon you'll come out ahead. (thumbs u

It doesn`t matter how insane the shiller`s bid is, his winning price will be the increment above the underbidder. And the shiller will have to pay that full price (inclusive of BP) for the book, and meanwhile when Heritage pays the sales proceeds to him, it will be less the BP. Seriously, I can`t figure out how to get this to work.

 

 

Tim,

It would make no sense to me if the shiller shill bid his own auction to try and get a new

GPA high (since he/she could end up winning it and end up paying the BP)....but if they were shilling the bids up to a "modest level" to prevent selling it for a "bargain price"...I could see that happening....

Okay Johnny, but that winning price that is just above a "bargain price" is STILL higher than anyone else would pay. So unless you think it was just a freakishly bad auction for that book, what you`re now faced with is trying to sell that book for 20% above a price that no one else would pay, just to break even with what you could have sold it for without shilling.

 

So unless you sit on the book for a while, in which case then you have to factor in the opportunity cost of the money that you wasted (meaning to sell it for a real profit you`re going to have to sell it for MORE than 20% above the price that no one would pay), you`re going to have to trot the book out quickly. And we know what happens to books that are recycled quickly on Heritage or CL, they get tagged with a scarlet letter as toxic krap that no one wants.

 

Tim,

I was thinking more in the lines of the "seller aka shiller" in this situation trying to push up the bid to their "reserve price"....in this case you only need one bidder instead of two to "jack up the price"...(of course the shiller still runs the risk of being the winning bidder)....

I'm not saying that this is happening all the time, but I'm sure it has happened and will happen again in the future...

[Flaming_Telepath]

Not sure of the risk/reward ratios here, but if you're sensible about it and don't lay down insane bids, I reckon you'll come out ahead. (thumbs u

It doesn`t matter how insane the shiller`s bid is, his winning price will be the increment above the underbidder. And the shiller will have to pay that full price (inclusive of BP) for the book, and meanwhile when Heritage pays the sales proceeds to him, it will be less the BP. Seriously, I can`t figure out how to get this to work.

 

 

Tim,

It would make no sense to me if the shiller shill bid his own auction to try and get a new

GPA high (since he/she could end up winning it and end up paying the BP)....but if they were shilling the bids up to a "modest level" to prevent selling it for a "bargain price"...I could see that happening....

Okay Johnny, but that winning price that is just above a "bargain price" is STILL higher than anyone else would pay. So unless you think it was just a freakishly bad auction for that book, what you`re now faced with is trying to sell that book for 20% above a price that no one else would pay, just to break even with what you could have sold it for without shilling.

 

So unless you sit on the book for a while, in which case then you have to factor in the opportunity cost of the money that you wasted (meaning to sell it for a real profit you`re going to have to sell it for MORE than 20% above the price that no one would pay), you`re going to have to trot the book out quickly. And we know what happens to books that are recycled quickly on Heritage or CL, they get tagged with a scarlet letter as toxic krap that no one wants.

 

Tim,

 

I think we're at cross-purposes here. There is no reason why an owner couldn't shill bid their own books and not win them.

 

Your argument appears to take for granted that they'll always end up winning them and therefore end up paying for book and premium?

 

If there's activity on a book, there's no harm in throwing in a few sensible increments to keep the interest there. Get the books to a decent level and then back off. The fact that the bid keeps on moving suggests to interested parties that the book is 'desirable' and that they'll need to keep their hats in the ring. (thumbs u

 

I accept that, occasionally, they will be left 'holding the baby', but so long as this only happens infrequently, the gains on the other books will be sufficient to cover the loss.

[tth2]

Not sure of the risk/reward ratios here, but if you're sensible about it and don't lay down insane bids, I reckon you'll come out ahead. (thumbs u

It doesn`t matter how insane the shiller`s bid is, his winning price will be the increment above the underbidder. And the shiller will have to pay that full price (inclusive of BP) for the book, and meanwhile when Heritage pays the sales proceeds to him, it will be less the BP. Seriously, I can`t figure out how to get this to work.

 

 

Tim,

It would make no sense to me if the shiller shill bid his own auction to try and get a new

GPA high (since he/she could end up winning it and end up paying the BP)....but if they were shilling the bids up to a "modest level" to prevent selling it for a "bargain price"...I could see that happening....

Okay Johnny, but that winning price that is just above a "bargain price" is STILL higher than anyone else would pay. So unless you think it was just a freakishly bad auction for that book, what you`re now faced with is trying to sell that book for 20% above a price that no one else would pay, just to break even with what you could have sold it for without shilling.

 

So unless you sit on the book for a while, in which case then you have to factor in the opportunity cost of the money that you wasted (meaning to sell it for a real profit you`re going to have to sell it for MORE than 20% above the price that no one would pay), you`re going to have to trot the book out quickly. And we know what happens to books that are recycled quickly on Heritage or CL, they get tagged with a scarlet letter as toxic krap that no one wants.

 

Tim,

 

I think we're at cross-purposes here. There is no reason why an owner couldn't shill bid their own books and not win them.

 

Your argument appears to take for granted that they'll always end up winning them and therefore end up paying for book and premium?

No, but it`s an eventuality that a shiller would have to be prepared for, right? Because if the book had so little legit support that you had to goose it in order to get it up to your price, then there would be a reasonable probability you might inadvertently win it.

 

If there's activity on a book, there's no harm in throwing in a few sensible increments to keep the interest there. Get the books to a decent level and then back off. The fact that the bid keeps on moving suggests to interested parties that the book is 'desirable' and that they'll need to keep their hats in the ring. (thumbs u

 

I accept that, occasionally, they will be left 'holding the baby', but so long as this only happens infrequently, the gains on the other books will be sufficient to cover the loss.

I guess I have a narrower definition of shilling than others, because I`m focused on the main harm that comes from shilling, which is to drive up the winning bid higher than it would otherwise have gone (and hence a risk of winning). Therefore, to me, real "shilling" means that you`re the underbidder. I guess technically "shilling" means placing any bids on your own book, and I take your point about shill bidding being able to help get the juices of other bidders going, but placing shill bids that end up in the middle of the pack is one of those crimes that I categorize as "no harm no foul". At the end of the day, they weren`t the real cause of the winner paying an artificial price.

[Davenport]

You ever wonder why certain books are auctioned off three times in a year via one auction house, despite reserve met

I've often wondered about shilled auctions as a phishing tactic. If the House owns a book in grade, or several of the same, couldn't they 'cook the books' with repeat auctions?

 

Wouldn't each 'sale' establish a price pattern for public consumption, and would the House pay itself any fees/bp? With direct links to 'sale history' to help set the hook, go phish?

 

Too far fetched? Not being a math guy it's just something I've wondered about.

[tth2]

You ever wonder why certain books are auctioned off three times in a year via one auction house, despite reserve met

I've often wondered about shilled auctions as a phishing tactic. If the House owns a book in grade, or several of the same, couldn't they 'cook the books' with repeat auctions?

 

Wouldn't each 'sale' establish a price pattern for public consumption, and would the House pay itself any fees/bp? With direct links to 'sale history' to help set the hook, go phish?

 

Too far fetched? Not being a math guy it's just something I've wondered about.

You guys are right, obviously the one party that can economically shill is the house, because they don`t lose the BP.

 

But unless I`m missing something, the same book coming up over and over in successive auctions is the kiss of death for that book. Bidders aren`t stupid, they see it coming up over and over and never successfully selling, and they shy away because they don`t want to be the one left holding the bag.

 

Just think of the MH National #7, which wasn`t being shilled necessarily, although Heritage wasn`t particularly transparent about the fact that it owned the book either after basically being strong-armed into buying it back from the original winner (who is notorious for falling out of love with his acquisitions very quickly). That book came up over and over with a reserve and the highest bid kept getting lower and lower until it finally sold many auctions later at something around half the price when it originally sold on Heritage. That book was seriously toxic, and the only thing that will detox it is to keep it off the market for many years until the taint has been forgotten.

[Scrooge]

That book was seriously toxic, and the only thing that will detox it is to keep it off the market for many years until the taint has been forgotten.

 

And this will happen since we know the current owner will keep it for quite a while.

[TFL-migration]

A good friend of mine bid on two of his own books. Both were with auction houses. Both books were very high grade GA... He asked me to bid on one of his books. I did indeed bid. I wanted the book. We couldn't come to a FMV for it. So he calls me up and says "keep going" with a chuckle in his voice. I told him I wasn't bidding to shill the price up. He seemed to be perplexed.. He had assumed I was shilling his book for him.. The book got to a point where I decided it wasn't worth it anymore. So I stopped bidding. Fast Forward a few months and I see my friend. He says he still has that GA book I was bidding on. I pretty much knew he had been shilling his own book up. It cost him a good amount in fee's to win his own book back. He wanted to sell it to me. Included in his price were the fee's he had to pay to win his own book back. I had kept a record of the bids on the book. I went back and looked through them all. I found the spot where I believe he started to bid on his own book. It was around $5K. So I told him I'd go $6,500.00. He said he would be "eating the fee's" at that price. I really didn't care. That was the price I thought the book was priced fairly. The book "sold" for $8,550.00 plus all the fee's. He still has the book. I still got my $6,500.00 It will take around 1.5 - 2 years before this book appreciates to the level where he can sell it and not take a loss. Bidding on your own books or whatever, should be illegal. I suppose smart sellers know when to stop bidding. Some get cocky and bid there books right back into there own hands. It looks good on them as far as I am concerned!!

[tth2]

A good friend of mine bid on two of his own books. Both were with auction houses. Both books were very high grade GA... He asked me to bid on one of his books. I did indeed bid. I wanted the book. We couldn't come to a FMV for it. So he calls me up and says "keep going" with a chuckle in his voice. I told him I wasn't bidding to shill the price up. He seemed to be perplexed.. He had assumed I was shilling his book for him.. The book got to a point where I decided it wasn't worth it anymore. So I stopped bidding. Fast Forward a few months and I see my friend. He says he still has that GA book I was bidding on. I pretty much knew he had been shilling his own book up. It cost him a good amount in fee's to win his own book back. He wanted to sell it to me. Included in his price were the fee's he had to pay to win his own book back. I had kept a record of the bids on the book. I went back and looked through them all. I found the spot where I believe he started to bid on his own book. It was around $5K. So I told him I'd go $6,500.00. He said he would be "eating the fee's" at that price. I really didn't care. That was the price I thought the book was priced fairly. The book "sold" for $8,550.00 plus all the fee's. He still has the book. I still got my $6,500.00 It will take around 1.5 - 2 years before this book appreciates to the level where he can sell it and not take a loss. Bidding on your own books or whatever, should be illegal. I suppose smart sellers know when to stop bidding. Some get cocky and bid there books right back into there own hands. It looks good on them as far as I am concerned!!

That pretty much sums up the dangers of shill bidding in a nutshell! (thumbs u

[brasseye]

A good friend of mine bid on two of his own books. Both were with auction houses. Both books were very high grade GA... He asked me to bid on one of his books. I did indeed bid. I wanted the book. We couldn't come to a FMV for it. So he calls me up and says "keep going" with a chuckle in his voice. I told him I wasn't bidding to shill the price up. He seemed to be perplexed.. He had assumed I was shilling his book for him.. The book got to a point where I decided it wasn't worth it anymore. So I stopped bidding. Fast Forward a few months and I see my friend. He says he still has that GA book I was bidding on. I pretty much knew he had been shilling his own book up. It cost him a good amount in fee's to win his own book back. He wanted to sell it to me. Included in his price were the fee's he had to pay to win his own book back. I had kept a record of the bids on the book. I went back and looked through them all. I found the spot where I believe he started to bid on his own book. It was around $5K. So I told him I'd go $6,500.00. He said he would be "eating the fee's" at that price. I really didn't care. That was the price I thought the book was priced fairly. The book "sold" for $8,550.00 plus all the fee's. He still has the book. I still got my $6,500.00 It will take around 1.5 - 2 years before this book appreciates to the level where he can sell it and not take a loss. Bidding on your own books or whatever, should be illegal. I suppose smart sellers know when to stop bidding. Some get cocky and bid there books right back into there own hands. It looks good on them as far as I am concerned!!

 

Great story (thumbs u and shows it's not all the shillers calling the shots

[blazingbob]

You call a person who shill bid a book you wanted a Good friend? And follows it up by wanting you to pay for his fees in shill bidding his own book up.

 

You need to get a new friend.

 

 

[jkrk]

Shill bidding- What I've always thought:

 

1)Shill bidding is best attempted in a venue where costs are lowest.

 

Independent Shillers should use E-Bay not Heritage.

 

2)Auction houses that sell their own books can play the game the best (no costs)..

 

3) shill bidders are very rarely the consignor.

 

4)No reserve auctions are potentially loaded with shills.

 

My approach:

 

 

I will not bid more than the limit I set before the auction and pay almost no attention to the bidding.

 

Jay

 

 

[burntboy]

 

 

I will not bid more than the limit I set before the auction and pay almost no attention to the bidding.

 

Jay

 

 

Seems like a pretty wise financial strategy... (thumbs u

[TFL-migration]

Business is business.... He bid up his own books. The auction house didn't care. Most sellers will somehow shill there book's up. Some, not all mind you.. Protecting the investment as it were. As it was mentioned earlier. Books with a reserve don't seem to do as well as other book's with no reserve. He still has the book. I am not going to be the one to pay for his stupidity, thats for sure. But if my car breaks down in the middle of nowhere at 2 a.m. I know he would come pick me up. He'd probably bring the book with him. Just in case I wanted to do some very early morning shopping...

[batman_fan]

Shilling in an auction seems pretty risky, buy CLINK and Pedigree are rip for the shill. Take this scenario

 

1. You put a book on CLINK for a ridiculus price.

2. Someone sees the book and makes a low offer (but maybe more realistic than your price).

3. You see the offer but rather than decline the bid, you use your handy shill account to bid the book higher.

4. You decline both offers

5. The first bidder sees the high bid and increaes his/hers or just bins it for fear of lossing out.

 

Sure you pay higher seller fees, but you make more money. This is a no risk scenario.

[MR.COMICBOOK]

You can bid up your own books. You ever wonder why certain books are auctioned off three times in a year via one auction house, despite reserve met

thanks.you learn something new everday on the CGC boards. looks like thiers a lot of crookiness going on out there. so now I found out about shill bidding being allowed and comics being restored. didn`t know about this stuff a year ago. I wonder how many people get scammed?

 

And you do know that Heritage employees bid on their own auction too, don't you?

no and how do you know when the Auction houses sell their own books?