Can OA prices be manipulated?

[TStrong-migration]

I've recently sold the last of my comics. The guy I sold the comics to said that he'd stick with comics because the pricing of original comic artwork is too easily manipulated.

 

Keith said, if he wants an Amazing Spider-Man #16, he can easily find multiple sources that will tell him the latest average price in whatever grade he wants. He can buy or not buy as he wants. He'll get a fair deal and early ASM comics tend to go up in value.

 

However, Keith argues that the limited availability of original art influences its pricing. He tells me there is one collector that wanted only John Romita Spider-Man covers. This collector bought enough of these covers that the artwork became scarce and other collectors had to bid more $ to buy a Romita Spider-Man cover. Keith claims that Romita Spider-Man covers are now priced higher than they would have been normally and that this inflation has affected all Spider-Man original artwork. It sounds urban legend-ish to me but Romita Spider-Man covers are limited in availability.

 

He also argues that dealers create an artificially high price for comic artwork. His example was the artist for Dynamo 5, a comic with relatively small success. The dealer for this artist started selling his artwork in the high hundreds of dollars and that became the new "standard" dollar value for that artist's work. My associate believes that an Ebay offering would have resulted in few bids and a lower price.

 

He also argues that an artist could create an artificial $ value simply by not selling much of his artwork. I think he said John Romita, Jr and one of the Kuberts are famous for selling very little of their artwork. He claims, if they should ever chose to bring all of their available work to the marketplace, prices would plummet.

 

I'm interested in covers/splashes from the not very successful ABC line of comics and those prices seem reasonable to low to me. I assume they were probably selling for more when ABC was "hot". So I think market forces really are the bottom line. But I would like to know if anyone else thinks that OA prices are as easily manipulated as Keith says.

 

 

[malvin]

I generally agree, but I wouldn't use the word manipulate. It is still market forces and supply and demand.

 

There are many artists who will only sell their art for alot higher than what it would fetch on ebay. For them, they just feel their work is worth that much and of course since they created it, they have an attachment. I wouldn't call that manipulating, not everyone is forced to sell for the ebay price. They own the artwork, and they will only part with it at a certain price. Even these artists still tend to sell some of those artwork, so there are fans willing to pay their price. If you feel it is unreasonable, and the artist won't lower their price, you might be lucky enough to see a page on ebay for resale, and you might be able to get it at a lower price. Of course you have no selection in the matter. I did the same thing for some of the artwork I won. The artist/dealer had a high price, and I patiently waited in the secondary market and paid a lower price. I have also done the opposite. I have bought art that I knew was well above what I could sell it for, but I wanted the art and that was the price required to acquire it. A collection is sometimes about possession and not a bank account!

 

As for Romita covers. Many stars have many fans and they scoop up whatever they can. It's back to supply and demand again. If Amazing Spiderman #16 printed only 10 copies, you will have the same problem. They will all be scooped up, and only a few available for sale at any time, and when it is, you have to buck up.

 

Malvin

[Sharkey]

Hey TStrong,

 

Art prices can be influenced and manipulated to some degree, but as Malvin alluded to, supply and demand also figure heavily into the equation.

 

Art is one of a kind. If one collector decided to buy up Romita Covers, and does so, of course the price will go up for the remaining ones and future ones that hit the market. It would be the same with any comic book. I don't see how that is manipulation. When you're dealing with limited quantity collectibles that are one of a kind, prices will react quickly to any new sale level. I do agree that in many cases people have tried to price art they have the same as a piece that has sold recently, and the pages may be equitable, but if that's the case, that page may sit and not sell for a while. Currently Romita covers are priced high because they have hostorically sold for more and more. And they aren't making more of them. How that's manipulation, I just don't see. Romita Spidey covers are true icons. They don't hit the market that often (especially the early large art covers). They're blue chips in the art world and every Spider-Man, Romita, and Silver Age collector would probably give their right testicle for one. I know I would, and tell people to call me "Lefty."

 

As far as artists not selling their artwork, that's not manipulation. It's not like JR Jr is not selling his art so he can raise the price of it. He doesn't like to sell his art because he either wants to keep it or he doesn't want to see it bought and sold like widgets and compared in price to other artists art prices. Or maybe he just likes it! But the end result is that there's a limited supply on the market and there are a lot of people who want his art. Sure, if he suddenly decided to drop it all on the market, the prices would probably go down due to classic supply vs demand. This happened when a big Kirby collection hit the market in the early 2000s. But the good stuff was quickly bought up and prices went back up. Now Kirby art is selling for record prices because so much of it is locked up in collections that will probably not see the light of day for a while. I see this as supply and demand not manipulation.

 

As far as dealers creating artificially high prices? Your friend has some faulty logic there. Dealers can ask any price they want for a piece of art. If it sits there and doesn't sell, then it's not a realistic price and they ultimately have to decide whether they want to sit on the art and wait for it to sell, or accept lower offers. Most dealers set high prices in order to garner trade pieces or get partial cash, partial trade deals which help them generate money and inventory. Now, if a dealer asks a price, and a buyer gladly pays it, then the price wasn't out of line, was it? That's the problem with one of a kind collectibles. If you want a certain page, it's the only one. That puts the dealer or seller in the position of power. They can ask what they want. Do some dealers ask outrageous prices? Sure some do, and that's frustrating.

 

In any case, be glad your passion is for reasonably priced pieces and not Frazetta, Ditko, Romita, Kirby, Miller, Bolland, or any of the other high-priced artists! (thumbs u

 

And good luck on the hunt! Hope you find some more stuff.

 

 

 

 

[mister_not_so_nice]

I'm sure someone more eloquent than I could state this better, but. . .

 

 

The OA market is so much more "niche" orientated than the comics market that just one buyer can affect an entire market within that niche as demonstrated when a new collector enter a couple years back looking for pages from one particular series. Prices escalated quickly. And OA collectors hate one thing even more than comicbook collectors hate restoration, and that is a correction in the market (especially on pages you own). So once prices have reached a certain level they tend to stay there, for better or worse.

 

 

Mike

[Mephisto]

I hope this guy doesn't get into GA books after finishing with ASM books. Aside from the physical manipulation done to comic books, people have manipulated the comic market in the past by hoarding as many copies of high Gerber number books and sitting on them till they get a price they like.

[Lemieux999-migration]

ASM Romita Covers are rare. Ditko ASM Covers are rarer. When you are talking of items like these, the market isn't manipulated per se, there just arent enough examples to meet the astronomical demand.

[r1982rhoads]

In terms of manipulation, I would say it lies with the dealers. I've seen many dealers push prices ever higher on just about everything, even things that do not sell/or where there isn't much of a market. Nothing makes you look twice when you see a decent quality piece on ebay, with minimul interest, and see it again at twice (or more) the price on a dealers website. Soon everyone somewhat follows suit, prices rise across the board, and pieces sit. Everyone can name the handful of dealers who have the cash and time to hoard and push the market up.

 

The thing is, when dealers raise the price, it can cause people to buy similar examples elsewhere at the yet unadjusted upward prices, in anticipation of price rises; which leads to further upward pressure.

 

A lot of pieces on dealer websites are obviously above the market clearing price (the price that would be achieved in an auction), otherwise they would sell in short order.

 

I've dealt with a few artists directly, and in my experience they tend to overprice their work. I can't tell you the number of times I just waited for a piece to show up later on ebay, and I bought it for half of what the artist wanted for it.

 

 

[NelsonAI]

You are getting sleepy, sleepy ........ Powerpuffs Girls panel pages for the bargain price of $500 per page ...... limited time only .......sleepy, sleepy ..... when you awaken, you will go out and buy all things Powerpuff..... AWAKE !!!!

 

All kidding aside, there are always going to be shills for comics and OA. Just as you would research the price of a comic book, you have to research sales data for OA. This includes forward looking trends. When a comic is "hot", prices are always going to exceed Overstreet price guide. There is never an exact science.

 

For new artists without a track record, usually the artist gives input on what they want to charge. The dealer adds their mark up.

 

For full disclosure I do not own any Powerpuff Girls art.

 

Cheers!

N

 

[Mighty Hal]

Aside from the physical manipulation done to comic books, people have manipulated the comic market in the past by hoarding as many copies of high Gerber number books and sitting on them till they get a price they like.

 

I think almost any hobby is subject to some price manipulation. Whatever you'd like to call it, it's still supply and demand. If the dealer for Mahmud Asrar (the Dynamo 5 artist) discovered that no one was interested at his original asking price, he would probably drop his numbers. If there was a single Romita collector in the world, Romita/ASM covers would be awfully cheap. The demand is there.

 

Like Mephisto said, this same manipulation certainly does exist in the comic book world. And, from my experience, it's worse than what we see in original artwork.

[Mephisto]

 

A lot of pieces on dealer websites are obviously above the market clearing price (the price that would be achieved in an auction), otherwise they would sell in short order.

 

I've dealt with a few artists directly, and in my experience they tend to overprice their work. I can't tell you the number of times I just waited for a piece to show up later on ebay, and I bought it for half of what the artist wanted for it.

 

 

I sold my collection in 2005 during college. Upon graduating in 2007 and collecting again I noticed many pieces I was interested in right before I stopped 2 years earlier were still sitting on the same dealer sites. Even another year later some are still there.

A prime example of getting a piece off ebay as opposed to a dealer is my Halloween painting by Bill Sienkiewicz. Sal Abbinanti had it listed on the site for 6K. When it was put on ebay with no reserve the hammer price was just over 1K. That's a big difference.

[J.Sid]

Right. The reason the Romita market was able to be manipulated like that is because there existed (and still exists) a tremendous demand for his work, specifically on Amazing Spider-Man.

 

[aardvark88]

I would say it is the art agent advising the artist to set high asking prices on their OA or illos. I have seen recent no-name Batman artist panel pages starting at $400 each! When none sold at conventions they were put on eBay and garnered $150-$200 each which is still pretty good for a decent, but not name artist or inker.

 

To save $$, try to buy direct from the inker or the art agent for the inker. And hope you are not bidding against the Charles Schulz estate or your will lose.

[chromium]

I sold my collection in 2005 during college. Upon graduating in 2007 and collecting again I noticed many pieces I was interested in right before I stopped 2 years earlier were still sitting on the same dealer sites. Even another year later some are still there.

A prime example of getting a piece off ebay as opposed to a dealer is my Halloween painting by Bill Sienkiewicz. Sal Abbinanti had it listed on the site for 6K. When it was put on ebay with no reserve the hammer price was just over 1K. That's a big difference.

 

So true...some dealers must have a LOT of cash to have so many books tied up for years and willing to sit on them until somebody actually pays their price.

 

I won a nice Doom splash on eBay a while ago for about $550, but alas reserve wasn't met.

So I contacted the dealer to ask how much I was short from the reserve and if he was willing to deal. I was pretty confident I was pretty close to the market price as I beat out 7 or 8 other bidders. Seller came back with "offers over $4000"

Needless to say the page is still for sale..

[r1982rhoads]

I can only guess who the seller (s) are!! 2 well known brothers?

 

 

[chromium]

I can only guess who the seller (s) are!! 2 well known brothers?

 

 

you're good !

[irchooker]

This incarnation was outed on this third post. Why go along for the ride?

[malvin]

This incarnation was outed on this third post. Why go along for the ride?

 

Huh? He isn't KK, that has also been discussed or are you referring to something else?

 

Malvin

[jbud73]

 

A lot of pieces on dealer websites are obviously above the market clearing price (the price that would be achieved in an auction), otherwise they would sell in short order.

 

I've dealt with a few artists directly, and in my experience they tend to overprice their work. I can't tell you the number of times I just waited for a piece to show up later on ebay, and I bought it for half of what the artist wanted for it.

 

 

I sold my collection in 2005 during college. Upon graduating in 2007 and collecting again I noticed many pieces I was interested in right before I stopped 2 years earlier were still sitting on the same dealer sites. Even another year later some are still there.

A prime example of getting a piece off ebay as opposed to a dealer is my Halloween painting by Bill Sienkiewicz. Sal Abbinanti had it listed on the site for 6K. When it was put on ebay with no reserve the hammer price was just over 1K. That's a big difference.

 

This situation is why I decided to not purchase anything over 2K unless its offered through a public auction. After buying a few 500-1500 pieces direct from dealers I started getting offered 3-6K pieces before they hit the dealer site, or because the dealer could acquire the piece for me. I decided to pass having only been collecting OA for a few years my comfort level was lower. Doing some research on previous sales and seeing pieces offered for sale on dealer sites for double or more what they just hammered at in public auction has made me glad I did.

 

Now the by-product of this is that there are certain pieces that you may never get a shot at if you let the piece hit the dealer site, or its offered elsewhere, however many pieces I was offered are still for sale on dealer sites, or have moved from site to site.

 

Another issue in OA is cash verses trade, something that does not manifest itself nearly as much in the comics market. Many pieces that start to hit reasonable 4 figures or higher may be moved with trade involved, so its hard to assess the cash only value of many pieces these days.

 

Having said all that, while I would agree that the smaller overall collector base of OA would make manipulation easier, coming from the HG comics market and still purchasing HG comics I can attest that there is a lot of manipulation in that collectible environment as well.

 

My personal assessment of the OA market is that it shows some striking similarities to the HG comics market circa 2002, in that it has in many respects 'come of age'. This is a very exciting and potential dangerous time to new entities entering the hobby. As many comic collectors said in 2002; arm yourself with as much information as you can and buy what you like and you seriously increase your chances of not getting burned.

 

[Khazano]

Right. The reason the Romita market was able to be manipulated like that is because there existed (and still exists) a tremendous demand for his work, specifically on Amazing Spider-Man.

 

Yeah, but Burkley hording a butt load of the guys artwork also played a big role in the current value, no one can deny that. Were Mike to put his whole Romita collection on the market right now, it would lower the overall market value due to the insane amount of new artwork being introduced into the system. (Oh come on, like none of you knew which collector was being refered too here)

 

I meen on this message board alone sits the man who single handledy drove the Preacher art market to Abinatti levels just by slowly and surely collecting as many pages as he could over the years. (It wasnt intentional market manipulation by any means, the guy was just buying what he liked at prices he could afford, but the market has sky rocketed because over the years Preacher art has become more and more sparse since its almost all in one place)

 

 

[Bronty]

weve been talking about normal supply demand stuff the bigger risk if you ask me especially on artists with small bodies of work is shill bidding to create new sales benchmarks & similar tricks. much easier to do with art than comics unless were talking about super super hg.