beginning of the modern age?

[OldSchoolTerry]

Hey fellow posters-

 

Just thought I'd post a question on a lazy Wednesday before Thanksgiving. When do you feel the "Bronze Age" ended, and the "Modern Age" began? Were there any events in your mind that signaled the beginnings of the "modern age"?

[joe_collector]

I prefer to think of Dark Knight Returns (and a nod to Secret Wars) as the start of the Modern Age, and a combination of X-Men 137 and DD 181 as the end of the Bronze.

 

Just like in some other Ages, there's a middle period where things kind of grind to a halt...

[chrisco37]

This is a tough question that we've debated many times....It's really hard to pinpoint the THE book. I think in the past we've come up with answers ranging from Cerebus #1 (Indy books become a force) to Dazzler #1 (Direct sales) to Dark Knight Returns / Watchmen (comics take a more mature turn) to Crisis.

 

Cases could be made for and against all of the above. For simplicity sake, I'd say that the BA ended 12/79 (end of the 70's) and the "Modern Age" begins 1/80. Again, no real basis for this, just for lack of a better answer.

 

We haven't had this discussion for awhile, but I'm glad that you brought it back up. This is something that needs discussed more. Since it's never really been established, perhaps we can collectively come to some kind of agreement on it and pass it on to Arnold for consideration in the OS Guide.

 

Chris

[Freiherr]

I can deal with dates a lot better than specific issues and 1980 sounds good for Modern. Of course I can understand why some collectors prefer specific issues.

[OldSchoolTerry]

What got me thinking about this today actually was looking at the CGG website. They have the bronze age going from 1970-1985, and that seemed to be kind of a late date for me. For simplicity's sake, 1970-1979 always seemed like a more reasonable time frame. But perhaps we can debate more here what event or events really signaled the beginning of the modern age in comics. I remember an excellent thread recently on pinpointing the beginnings of the Bronze Age, and I wanted to open to the discussion to where the age ended.

In my opinion, looking at it from the perspective of when comics really changed to the more dark, adult format, a really strong case could be made for Dark Knight I suppose. But then that would put the "Modern Age" starting in the mid 80's. Maybe the Bronze Age really was 15 years long.

In my own experience, what also signaled a change for me, was when Marvel began running their limited series (I believe Contest of Champions was their 1st one). Then, you had Wolverine, Hawkeye, Vision and Scarlet Witch, Secret Wars, and so on. And, I remembered DC started doing it soon after that. The comics themselves seemed the same, not more adult or anything, but it was just kind of a new format.

 

[joe_collector]

Here's a different take:

 

Jim Shooter takes over creative reigns at Marvel 1980-81 (post Stan Lee era).

 

Sure he was hired on in 78-79, but didn't become VP until '81 and it wasn't until the 1980's when he really took over from Stan on Marvel's creative direction.

[OldSchoolTerry]

Maybe a case could even be made that the Modern Age began when comic companies (I'm thinking specifically of Marvel here) really began extending their number of titles. One early example that comes to mind is Web of Spider-Man #1. I remember thinking at the time, "Well, I love Spidey and buy his 2 titles already, but do we really need a third?" Soon, after this, it seemed like there were multiple titles for a bunch of characters.

[RTBrandy]

Without a doubt, Groo the Wanderer #1 !!

[OldSchoolTerry]

Without a doubt, Groo the Wanderer #1 !!

 

I enjoyed that book myself, but.....

[whetteon]

[whetteon]

Why don't they have a convention or some type of gathering where people decide the era once and for all. As for the whinners who won't get what they want when it's decided that their particular book IS NOT the start of a new era, TOO BAD LOSERS

[Kevin Boyd]

DC Universe highlights of the "Next Age" after Bronze

 

Crisis on Infinite Earths 1-12 (the worlds of the Silver and Golden Age DC characters have been destroyed and restarted into a new reality where most characters backstories are now in flux).

 

But for the main characters the new ages begin with:

 

Batman #404 (Year One),

Man of Steel #1 (two covers!),

Wonder Woman #1 (Perez)

 

Interestingly DC put the Golden Age characters to be almost immediately with THE LAST DAYS OF THE JSA special and they would sit out most of the next age after bronze.

 

Other DC highlights:

 

Saga of the Swamp Thing #21 "The Anatomy Lesson" - roots of Vertigo established, Alan Moore reinvents comic book writing and storytelling. Reinvention of an older character for a modern audience. Moore actually finishes the work begun by Crisis in Swamp Thing #50 with the effects on the Spirit realms.

 

Dark Knight Returns #1

Watchmen #1

 

---------------------------------------------

 

MARVEL - much harder to pinpoint as the company did not go through any major restructuring of its universe as DC did.

 

So we must look for what new elements were added that changed the company.

 

For that purpose I still think the COMPANY-WIDE CROSSOVER was the major change that happened for Marvel that defined it differently from it's preceeding years. And for that, while "Contest of Champions" is a "test" of the same waters, I still think "MARVEL SUPER HEROES: SECRET WARS" was the defining series. It introduced the line-wide crossover as a marketting gimmick (god knows they wouldn't stop there with marketting gimmicks during the next era) but also as a tool to make changes in series that were growing "complacent" - that is, to stir things up. Spider-Man and Iron Man get new looks (the foundation for future villain Venom), Thing gets replaced by She-Hulk in the FF, Kitty and Peter "break up" in X-Men, Professor X walks, and so on. Later on the company crossover would be used as an effective tool to kill characters and launch new ones. DC's use of the same format would allow them to completely and successfully reshape their ENTIRE line of comics for a new audience of former Marvel Zombies. Crisis definitely got me interested, and I wouldn't have been caught dead reading Superman before John Byrne revitalized the character, or Wonder Woman before Perez reimagined her.

 

Note that the Company-Wide Crossover, the gimmick to end all gimmicks has almost completely died out from over abuse in the era in question. By 2000 they had grown few and far between and if big crossover occur these days they are self-contained, rarely crossing over into the regular titles.

 

Kev

[chrisco37]

at the CGG website. They have the bronze age going from 1970-1985

 

If this is the case, and we take CGC's word for it, than this would fall in line w/ what Joe (and then you) stated about the Dark Knight Returns. And, really, I would say that Dark Knight is the strongest candindate for a single book that ushered in a new age. It was recognized instantly as a classic, and remains that way.

 

That being said, I really like Joe's proposal of a change in "age" with the changing of the guard at Marvel. Shooter's arrival was a significant event in the industry, and falls in line with a couple of things: Direct Sales, Mini-Series, etc.... Of course, being comic collectors, we have to have a specific issue to pinpoint and hunt down ( )

 

As Joe said, many times there is a "lag" between the ages. Perhaps this is what happened between 1980-85. Sure, a couple of runs stand out (Miller on DD, Claremont on Xmen), but no truly significant comic events until Dark Knight.

 

Like I said, it's tough to pin-point the start of an age. You could even make a case (I think, but I'm biased) that Saga of the Swamp Thing #21 was the start of an age. Alan Moore's first mainstream comic started the "British Invasion" of supremely talented writers. That should not be overlooked either. Perhaps, the quintessential ret-con was his on Swamp Thing???

 

Chris

[vic6string]

I have always gone with Dark Knight as the start of the Modern Age for the reasons mentioned earlier. But I don't think there is a definate cutoff where you can say "the Bronze age ended yesterday and the modern age starts today". I think there was a period of a few years where the experimental nature and last remnants of childhood innocence of the bronze age was gone, but the darker, more adult modern age wasn't really there yet. Also from a collectable standpoint there was a period where the speculators and investors hadn't rally hit yet, but there was already some more hoarding and attention to comic condition. You could say the bronze age had a slow death starting around when Dazzler came out, but didn't really take its last breath until Miller re-did Batman.

 

Another thing is that I think the period we call the modern age is dead already. I think what we have been calling the modern age had 2 stages. Stage 1: Miller makes Batman for grown ups, and suddenly everyone is marketing to more adult audiences. Crisis keeps re-writing DC... crossovers become regular events... anti-heroes like Wolvie and Punisher hit it big... and collecting starts to really become more of a business. Stage 2: Wilcats #1 hits and independants go mainstream....Valiant is a huge success...Spawn and Cerebus and other indies are just as big as anything Marvel or DC can put out....speculators take over the hobby... everything needs to have a limited edition variant cover.... gimmicks are all the rage (taken from sportscard collecting).

 

I think we need a new name for that age (roughly 1982-2000) . The New Modern age started when Ultimate Spidey #1 hit the shelves. Its back to basics now. companies are printing less copies of less titles and trying to put out better product (not just more product) Even the movies are better. Still have the investor remnants of the last age, but not as gimmicky. What do you all think?

[ArnoldTBlumberg]

As I've noted on other similar threads, stay tuned for the 34th edition of The Overstreet Comic Book Price Guide. We've been talking about this for over a year and we should have something very interesting in store for that edition.

 

Arnold

[chrisco37]

I think we need a new name for that age (roughly 1982-2000) .

 

I keep thinking about it, and the only word that keeps popping into my head is "Dark Age". I can't decide if I like that or not. It works on a couple levels, but it just doesn't sound right to me.

 

Here's the pro "Dark Age" arguement:

 

While we have some different opinions, one thing that we all seem to agree on is that "Dark" Knight is, possibly, the most important book of the era. Also, we see the rise in popularity of the anti-hero (Wolverine, Punisher, Lobo). Books are grittier, characters too (Ghost Rider). Vertigo comes into the mix with dark characters like Sandman and Constaintine.

 

Also, "Dark" signifies something bad. In this era we an over-abundance of "Bad". Gimmick covers, rampant speculation, hideous art, bad writing, etc.. almost destroyed the hobby. So, while there were some great events during this era (DK, Watchmen, Sandman) it was a "Dark Age" as well.

 

And, the anti "Dark Age" arguement: It sounds pretty lame.

 

I'd call your "New Modern" age, the "Ultimate Age".

 

What do you guys think?

 

Chris

[OldSchoolTerry]

As I've noted on other similar threads, stay tuned for the 34th edition of The Overstreet Comic Book Price Guide. We've been talking about this for over a year and we should have something very interesting in store for that edition.

 

Arnold

 

Well, if you guys steal material from this thread, make sure you give us credit....

 

[Freiherr]

When it comes to “Dark”, I think about readers voting in to DC to have Jason Todd butchered (1989?). For me, this rolled out many mini-ages I goof about.

 

The Gimmick Age - beyond multiple covers. Gold, platinum and whatever color premiums. Glow in the dark art, plastic gems and holograms.

 

The “I want to be a publisher” Age - Everyone starts their own company or jumps to the hottest independent.

 

The “Oops...maybe not” Age - Hot talent make a mass exodus back to DC/Marvel.

 

The Silicon Age - Every female character got triple E implants and the racks were filled with new female “heroes”.

 

The CGI Age - All titles are considered for movies and are adapted for the films.

 

[RedRaven]

Advent of the direct sales market .....

Not sure what book (s) mark that the best. Dazzler #1 was mentioned already ...

[Zonker]

Advent of the direct sales market .....

Not sure what book (s) mark that the best. Dazzler #1 was mentioned already ...

 

Something definitely changed between 1980-81, and pitching books to the fan/direct market was a big part of that. Here are the dates I pulled out from another post:

 

May 1979: Daredevil 158- First Miller art

Sep 1980: X-Men 137- Death of Dark Phoenix

Oct 1980: DC Presents 26- first New Teen Titans

Nov 1980: New Teen Titans 1

"1980" : Superboy Spectacular- Direct Sales only 1-shot (anyone know which month?)

Jan 1981: Daredevil 168- First Miller -script; Intro Elektra

Jan 1981: X-Men 141- Days of Future Past launches alternate time line that would form the basis for lots of X-continuity over the next several years

Mar 1981: X-Men 143- Final Claremont/Byrne

Mar 1981: Dazzler 1- First direct-sales-only for an ongoing series

Nov 1981: Captain Victory 1- First Pacific Comics issue, direct-only publisher

 

 

So, I'd lump 1980 through 1993 together. Call it the Modern Age, or the Dark Age, the Copper Age, or the Fan/Speculator Age. Then 1993-1996-ish is the crash.

1996 brings in Kingdom Come;

1997 Morrison's JLA;

1998 Marvel "Heroes Return"

1999 The Authority;

2000 the Ultimate titles.

...and things seem to be back in an upswing. I'd call the period from say 1997 til now the Post-Modern or Contemporary Age, at least until we come up with something better.