Show me your Timely's and I'll show you mine. Have a Cigar... 30 30

[selegue]

Yeah I can understand how cleaning a cover properly so the quality of the book stays good for another 60-100yrs is bad. Otherwise the foxing(mold) might actually do some damage. (sarcasim)

 

I'm very interested in your comment. Is there a thread about "cleaning a cover properly"? If there is, can someone post a link? There are both water-based and organic solvent-based cleaning methods, right? Do both methods kill off the foxing (mold)? Are the foxing "stains" fully removed?

 

Part of my interest is that I think this could be an ideal application of supercritical carbon dioxide (modern dry cleaning of clothing and many other uses) and I don't know whether it's been used to clean comic books.

 

Thanks!

 

Jack

[Scrooge]

Yeah I can understand how cleaning a cover properly so the quality of the book stays good for another 60-100yrs is bad. Otherwise the foxing(mold) might actually do some damage. (sarcasim)

 

I'm very interested in your comment. Is there a thread about "cleaning a cover properly"? If there is, can someone post a link? There are both water-based and organic solvent-based cleaning methods, right? Do both methods kill off the foxing (mold)? Are the foxing "stains" fully removed?

 

Part of my interest is that I think this could be an ideal application of supercritical carbon dioxide (modern dry cleaning of clothing and many other uses) and I don't know whether it's been used to clean comic books.

 

Maybe I'm quoting stuff you already know Jack but here's one of many summaries FFB posted before:

 

"Basically, there are three kinds of cleaning:

 

1) Erasure (dry cleaning). Usually does not involve disassembly of the book. It is accomplished using any number of materials, ranging from art gum eraser, white artist's eraser, erasing pad, microspatula, and even a wadded up piece of Wonder Bread (no kidding), all of which can be used mechanically to remove surface grime and other soiling from the cover of a book.

 

2) Solvent cleaning. Involves disassembly and immersion in a solvent, such as Naphtha. Book is placed one folio at a time into a solvent bath, then removed and air dried until the solvent evaporates.

 

3) Aqueous wash. Involves disassembly and an immersion in a solution of water and calcium hydroxide or other alkaline compound. After washing, the book is patted dry with blotters and then dried completely under mild pressure (such as a sandwich of weighted glass, felt, gore-tex, and/or cotton blotter paper)."

 

Also in the footnotes of this article (thanks Scott), it is mentioned that: "It appears that there are various "standard solutions according to the way these deacidification solutions are prepared. The standard solutions here are: Magnesium bicarbonate c. .2%; calcium carbonate, a saturated solution diluted with water 1:1. "

 

As to its effect on foxing, according to collectorsprint.com (warning: the article writer is NOT an expert):

 

"The cause of foxing is unknown, traditionally the brown marks are described away as the rusting of the paper and to some extent this is true - in that iron does need to be present for foxing to occur, which explains why earlier/older paper is not effected as it predates the use of iron machinery in the manufacturing process. However it is thought that some kind of fungus or other organism actually does the dirty deed and that perhaps the iron residue is some kind of catalysts.

 

Cleaning is possible, the brave amateur can use a very weak solution of household bleach and leave the antique print to soak in a photographers developing tray until the foxing has been bleached out. The print needs then to be thoroughly washed with clean water or else the bleach will continue on bleaching for some time to come. Be warned that wet paper is very fragile and tears very easily, also that the paper too will be bleached and may come out whiter than before as well as somewhat more brittle."

 

Here's a more scientific approach / answer to the question:

 

"Two significant differences between foxed and clean areas of a paper are the higher proportion of acid and iron in the former, although there does not seem to be any clear and definitive relationship between iron and foxing. Insofar as the acid is involved, it is not clear whether this is produced chemically or as a byproduct of the life function of the organisms present. Iron is attributed to impurities present in the paper, and this conclusion seems to be based largely on the fact that it is seldom found in papers produced before the introduction of papermaking equipment made of iron, e.g., the beater, and improvements in techniques, including bleaching and other forms of chemical treatment. But what role iron has in accelerating foxing, or causing a change from the invisible to visible state, has yet to be demonstrated.

 

The other factor which controls foxing is relative humidity (R.H.), since these fungi will not develop if the R.H. falls below 75%. The fact that foxing generally starts from the edge of the leaf and spreads inward would seem to indicate that something in the atmosphere is relevant, although air borne organisms may be adequate as an explanation for this effect. In addition, it must still be explained how the center of the leaf is affected most in occasional instances. Perhaps the most logical explanation is that infection by air borne organisms (or by organisms that are natural to the paper) may occur if the conditions, and especially the R.H., are favorable, and that growth, resulting in the generation of fox marks, then occurs. The acid subsequently renders any iron in the paper soluble and therefore visible, with its color being intensified by the presence of organic matter.

 

The effects of foxing may be reduced to a reasonable extent by use of a reducing agent, such as sodium borohydride (NaBH 4 ) in a 0.5% solution by weight of the paper. This chemical has the advantage of not having to be washed out of the paper (and even depositing a small alkaline reserve—sodium tetraborate (Na 2 B 4 O 7 )—in the paper). Foxing may be counteracted to an even greater extent by the use of a 0.1% (by weight of the paper) solution of an oxidizing agent such as calcium hypochlorite (Ca(ClO)2); however, this chemical is very difficult to wash out after treatment. Unaffected papers may be successfully protected from foxing by maintaining the R.H. of the storage area below 50%."

 

If you want hard-core research into foxing, try this DETERMINATION OF IRON AND COPPER IN 18th AND 19th CENTURY BOOKS BY FLAMELESS ATOMIC ABSORPTION SPECTROSCOPY and some of these results are in these slides in PDF form. Check out Slide # 8 for foxing removal treatments.

 

Sorry to go on so long. I never took the time before to stop and look into the topic. Should've before though. The "research" was for my own edification / education also.

[selegue]

....

I'm very interested in your comment. Is there a thread about "cleaning a cover properly"? If there is, can someone post a link? There are both water-based and organic solvent-based cleaning methods, right? Do both methods kill off the foxing (mold)? Are the foxing "stains" fully removed?

 

Part of my interest is that I think this could be an ideal application of supercritical carbon dioxide (modern dry cleaning of clothing and many other uses) and I don't know whether it's been used to clean comic books.

 

Maybe I'm quoting stuff you already know Jack but here's one of many summaries FFB posted before:

 

 

Thanks! No, I didn't already know all this -- you provided the information I was looking for. It looks like the aqueous wash is a lot more about deacidification than "disinfection" for foxing. With these key words I should be able to find more in the forum or even googling. The technical paper is especially appreciated. I wonder whether anyone has gone beyond a summer undergraduate (REU) study of the problem.

 

I find it almost impossible to believe that the surface oxidation of the iron content of the paper has anything to do with the foxing color. Odd that foxing has been treated by either reduction OR oxidation!

 

I'll dig around in the literature for info about using supercritical CO2 for paper treatment/preservation. It seems to me like an ideal solvent for this application.

 

Jack

 

 

"Basically, there are three kinds of cleaning:

 

1) Erasure (dry cleaning). Usually does not involve disassembly of the book. It is accomplished using any number of materials, ranging from art gum eraser, white artist's eraser, erasing pad, microspatula, and even a wadded up piece of Wonder Bread (no kidding), all of which can be used mechanically to remove surface grime and other soiling from the cover of a book.

 

2) Solvent cleaning. Involves disassembly and immersion in a solvent, such as Naphtha. Book is placed one folio at a time into a solvent bath, then removed and air dried until the solvent evaporates.

 

3) Aqueous wash. Involves disassembly and an immersion in a solution of water and calcium hydroxide or other alkaline compound. After washing, the book is patted dry with blotters and then dried completely under mild pressure (such as a sandwich of weighted glass, felt, gore-tex, and/or cotton blotter paper)."

 

Also in the footnotes of this article (thanks Scott), it is mentioned that: "It appears that there are various "standard solutions according to the way these deacidification solutions are prepared. The standard solutions here are: Magnesium bicarbonate c. .2%; calcium carbonate, a saturated solution diluted with water 1:1. "

 

As to its effect on foxing, according to collectorsprint.com (warning: the article writer is NOT an expert):

 

"The cause of foxing is unknown, traditionally the brown marks are described away as the rusting of the paper and to some extent this is true - in that iron does need to be present for foxing to occur, which explains why earlier/older paper is not effected as it predates the use of iron machinery in the manufacturing process. However it is thought that some kind of fungus or other organism actually does the dirty deed and that perhaps the iron residue is some kind of catalysts.

 

Cleaning is possible, the brave amateur can use a very weak solution of household bleach and leave the antique print to soak in a photographers developing tray until the foxing has been bleached out. The print needs then to be thoroughly washed with clean water or else the bleach will continue on bleaching for some time to come. Be warned that wet paper is very fragile and tears very easily, also that the paper too will be bleached and may come out whiter than before as well as somewhat more brittle."

 

Here's a more scientific approach / answer to the question:

 

"Two significant differences between foxed and clean areas of a paper are the higher proportion of acid and iron in the former, although there does not seem to be any clear and definitive relationship between iron and foxing. Insofar as the acid is involved, it is not clear whether this is produced chemically or as a byproduct of the life function of the organisms present. Iron is attributed to impurities present in the paper, and this conclusion seems to be based largely on the fact that it is seldom found in papers produced before the introduction of papermaking equipment made of iron, e.g., the beater, and improvements in techniques, including bleaching and other forms of chemical treatment. But what role iron has in accelerating foxing, or causing a change from the invisible to visible state, has yet to be demonstrated.

 

The other factor which controls foxing is relative humidity (R.H.), since these fungi will not develop if the R.H. falls below 75%. The fact that foxing generally starts from the edge of the leaf and spreads inward would seem to indicate that something in the atmosphere is relevant, although air borne organisms may be adequate as an explanation for this effect. In addition, it must still be explained how the center of the leaf is affected most in occasional instances. Perhaps the most logical explanation is that infection by air borne organisms (or by organisms that are natural to the paper) may occur if the conditions, and especially the R.H., are favorable, and that growth, resulting in the generation of fox marks, then occurs. The acid subsequently renders any iron in the paper soluble and therefore visible, with its color being intensified by the presence of organic matter.

 

The effects of foxing may be reduced to a reasonable extent by use of a reducing agent, such as sodium borohydride (NaBH 4 ) in a 0.5% solution by weight of the paper. This chemical has the advantage of not having to be washed out of the paper (and even depositing a small alkaline reserve—sodium tetraborate (Na 2 B 4 O 7 )—in the paper). Foxing may be counteracted to an even greater extent by the use of a 0.1% (by weight of the paper) solution of an oxidizing agent such as calcium hypochlorite (Ca(ClO)2); however, this chemical is very difficult to wash out after treatment. Unaffected papers may be successfully protected from foxing by maintaining the R.H. of the storage area below 50%."

 

If you want hard-core research into foxing, try this DETERMINATION OF IRON AND COPPER IN 18th AND 19th CENTURY BOOKS BY FLAMELESS ATOMIC ABSORPTION SPECTROSCOPY and some of these results are in these slides in PDF form. Check out Slide # 8 for foxing removal treatments.

 

Sorry to go on so long. I never took the time before to stop and look into the topic. Should've before though. The "research" was for my own edification / education also.

[selegue]

 

I'll dig around in the literature for info about using supercritical CO2 for paper treatment/preservation. It seems to me like an ideal solvent for this application.

 

 

That wasn't hard to find.

 

Nothing specific about foxing, but good for both deacidification/buffering and strengthening.

 

Jack

[Scrooge]

Thanks! No, I didn't already know all this -- you provided the information I was looking for.

 

[Scrooge]

 

I'll dig around in the literature for info about using supercritical CO2 for paper treatment/preservation. It seems to me like an ideal solvent for this application.

 

 

That wasn't hard to find.

 

Nothing specific about foxing, but good for both deacidification/buffering and strengthening.

 

So from the abstract, the CaCO3 is the base for the de-acidification since foxing is a simple result of acidification and its effect is made more effective / less destructive when used with CO2SCF as the vehicle that carries the active base? Is that because CO2SCF is a larger compound and is more easily removed from the paper once the foxing has been treated? Our library doesn't have access to that journal so I can't check out the entire article.

[mr.schomburg]

Guys, Guys, while this information is fantastic, I can't help but think.....Where are the Timely posts? Lets move it along, and post some pics.

[selegue]

Guys, Guys, while this information is fantastic, I can't help but think.....Where are the Timely posts? Lets move it along, and post some pics.

 

Sorry to derail the Parade of Timely covers.

I started a thread in the Restoration section. Anyone interested, please chime in there.

 

CO2 cleaning

 

Thanks,

Jack

[GreatEscape]

 

Now, we rejoin our regularly scheduled program...Timelys!!!

 

Kid Komics #2 VF Unrestored (not as nice as MrBedrock's, but I'll take it!)

 

 

GE

[143ksk]

Awesome book GE

 

I agree, too much talking, not enough scans! Here's my newest Timely

 

Edited May 1, 2007 by 143ksk

[Scrooge]

Guys, Guys, while this information is fantastic, I can't help but think.....Where are the Timely posts? Lets move it along, and post some pics.

 

You started it

 

Great books everyone

[TheEyeSees]

Awesome book GE

 

I agree, too much talking, not enough scans! Here's my newest Timely

 

 

Congrats on a GREAT pick up , 143ksk!! I have always thought this cover was amazing ... it stands out from most of the Schomburg TORCH covers, IMO. I love how the torch and toro are framed against the black smoke, and the Submariner head shot is great! The detail below is incredible as well.

[FFB]

 

I'll dig around in the literature for info about using supercritical CO2 for paper treatment/preservation. It seems to me like an ideal solvent for this application.

 

 

That wasn't hard to find.

 

Nothing specific about foxing, but good for both deacidification/buffering and strengthening.

 

Jack

 

Jack,

 

Any chance you could email me that article? sbonagof at aol dot com

[mr.schomburg]

Guys, Guys, while this information is fantastic, I can't help but think.....Where are the Timely posts? Lets move it along, and post some pics.

 

You started it

 

Great books everyone

 

I did didn't I, I am such a trouble maker!

[G.A.tor]

this just in, courtesy of herc2000

thanks

gator

[G.A.tor]

this one just in too...

gator

[Silver Surfer]

[Straw-Man]

this one just in too...

gator

 

you've gone wild.

[MrBedrock]

Okay Boys and Girls.....I got some books in today. I hope you enjoy seeing them as much as I enjoyed opening the CGC package. Kinda like Christmas morning...

So, without further adoooooooo...........

[MrBedrock]