How much money have you spent on CGC's slabbing service?

[lighthouse]

I actually had to spend a while thinking about this one... but I am in the $5K-10K category...

 

I am frankly surprised that only one person (as of right now) has answered higher than that.

 

As for my future plans, I expect to spend somewhere between $15K-$20K on slabbing in 2004, but if I stumble across any really nice collections it could be a lot more. There were three different collections I purchased in 1999-2001 (and promptly sold raw) that if I were to pick them up now I would be happily spending $5K+ on slabbing fees. If I get collections like that today, CGC gets a lot more of my money... When I think of the hundreds of 12c DC's in 9.2-9.6 that I sold raw in 2001 I just cringe...

 

Thanks for the info. I have a few question since you seem to be one of the bigger dealers on these boards. On most comic collections you purchase what is the percentage of HG comics (i.e. GA 9.2+, SA 9.4+, BA 9.6+, and 1980s keys 9.8+)? Of the collections you purchase how many of the HG keys are mainstream comics like Superman, Batman, Detective, Green Lantern etc... and how many are obscure titles? Do you get non-key 9.0 and lower comics CGC'd? Finally, if there are tons of HG raw comics out there why don't they show up in comic shops? Is your comic store full to the brim with HG stuff? If so, I would like to drop by. Thanks again.

 

I am certainly one of the taller dealers on these boards... but I don't know about being one of the bigger...

 

Most comic collections I purchase are garbage. Stuff that if I didn't own a store I would never be able to move. But the only reason I continue to get good collections showing up is that I am always willing to buy, and I will pay "something" no matter what the collection is like. Word gets around, and you would be amazed how many collectors will test-sell a few books from their collection to see how they are treated before bringing out the big guns...

 

HG keys don't come in all the time. If I was swimming in them, I wouldn't be posting here nearly as much as I do. But strangely, the stuff I see most often in high grade is stuff that isn't mainstream. A guy with high grade Spideys can flip his books at any time, and gets offers from his friends constantly. A guy with a high grade run of Bewitched doesn't experience that.

 

The reason HG raw comics don't appear in comic shops is that comic shops don't buy comics... It's that simple.

 

And no, my store is not full to the brim with HG stuff, but my storage units are... The next time I sign a new lease on a shop, I'll be consolidating my books into one location... And depending on my situation at that point. I may well end my reign as the resident anonymous comic shop owner... My current local customers would freak if they knew who I was and what I say here. The customers at my next location may not be such pansies...

[MMMarvel-migration]

why haven't you commented on Shady's 12 9.4 SA out of a collection of 2,500?

 

Why should I? As you stated many, many, many, many, many times, the word of a collector, without proof, is totally useless.

 

It's highly amusing that you have about 99% of the board against your hypothesis of "all GA, SA and BA comics are rare in HG", yet one guy comes out with a statement like that, and you're all over it.

 

Why don't you give the same weight to others who have commented? Oh yeah, because it makes you look like a newbie speculator .

 

Ok faux comic sage, lets see if we can get a prediction from you. Since you think there are tons of HG Hulk #181s 9.4 and above out there, what do you the believe the census will be for those grades in December of 2004? As of November 2003 there was 189 copies CGC 9.4 and above. Look into your magic 8-ball or rub your rabbits foot and give us your prediction. Will the census double or triple? Are you afraid to make a prediction because people will laugh at you? You probably are.

[MMMarvel-migration]

How long have you had that book, MMMarvel?

 

Which one?

 

I was wondering when you got "that book" (the Hulk 181). I was just curious how long you've owned it, and when you sent it in to be slabbed, or if you bought it slabbed already.

 

I haven't bought a Hulk 181 in 2 or 3 years. I haven't CGC'd any myself. I own more than one copy of that issue.

[joe_collector]

Since you think there are tons of HG Hulk #181s 9.4 and above out there, what do you the believe the census will be for those grades in December of 2004?

 

There ARE tons of this book in HG; it was part of the MH2 collection and Chuckles had vast quantities available.

 

Now as for predictions, I have no idea what will happen in the next 12 months, but over the next decade, I'll steal a few lines from Star Wars on how many HG copies of Hulk 181 will appear in the Census:

 

"More copies than you can imagine"

 

"I don't know, I can imagine quite a bit"

 

"You'll get it"

 

 

Or as the old saying goes, there will be as many HG copies of Hulk 181 as there is needed.

[COI]

If you're so sure about the scarcity of all late Silver/Bronze 9.4's, then stop trying to convince everyone else, fire up your sniping software, and go nuts. But it seems to me that you've spent a ton on high grade keys, and are trying to convince everyone here, and yourself, that they're scarce. If you need to rationalize your purchases by getting other people to agree with your points, save yourself the agrivation and sell now.

[Aman619]

Pedigree, thank you man.

You answered MMMs repeated requests prefectly. point by point. I especially liked you reminding him that shadrock post specifically stated that he WAS NOT a HG collector. So for MMM to trot out the 12 our of 2500 stat again and again was meaningless!

 

I think we all get where hes coming from. I guess a lot of new collectors just believe what they see in the marketplace. I would like to be charitablke and suggest that the argument stems from some disagreement about words like "tons" and "scarce" and that MMMbelieves knowledgeable collectors here are telling him there are 100s of 9.4 of EVERY early Marvel for instance. there are not. But most of us agree that the census so far is but a glimpse of all that exists...and thats especially true the more recent you look.

 

As for the 9.4 census for 181 in a years time? I think thats a good bonus question we should all take a stab at for fun. Ill say it goes up at least 40 more copies this year.

[Rip]

40 Sounds good. I'll say almost 3 a month.

[shadroch]

Check my last 2 posts and respond. Or you can continue to avoid the issue and waffle because you are loosing the argument.

 

Why does it matter so much to believe the fallacy that 1960's and up comics are rare?

 

If 1960s and up are NOT rare in HG why don't we see hundreds of 9.4s or better Amazing Fantasy #15 or Fantastic Four #1s on the CGC census?

 

If 1960s and up are NOT rare why does a collector like Shady have only a dozen comics out of a collection of 2,500 Silver Age comics in 9.4 or better condition?

 

If 1960s and up are NOT rare why do seasoned comic veterans go crazy when a lot of HG raw silver age comics come up for sell?

 

I am a collector and I couldn't care less if there 10 or 10,000 of a certain issue in a certain grade, as I'm only concerned with buying what I like.

 

How many of your 1960-1970 comics are in 9.4 or better condition?

 

Hopefully you're not silly enough to be investing money in funny books, and hoping for some windfall based on your purchases? Otherwise, who cares?

 

Yup, I have some money in funny books. Mostly key issues like Hulk #181 whose total in the CGC census in grades of 9.4 or better only rose from 187 to 189 (or by 2) between the last 2 census updates. Gee... at that rate how long will it take to reach the 10,000 mark that some of the comic gurus claim exist?

 

Why do I have only a dozen 9.4s out of 2500? Because I was not a condition freak. The fact that I have any when I never tried to should set off all sort of alarm bells,instead of trying to use half my statement to support your theory. I was/am a comic reader. I was a dealer. Most of my 12 cent comics are left over store stock.

Did you miss the part of my post about the Robert Bell collection? Or MH2? Do you think collectors twenty years ago paid top dollar for books and then gave them to their nephews to read?

Bob Overstreet,the acknowledged top expert in the field seems to think that there are as many as 10,000 Spider-Man 1s out there. How many of them are HG? If even 1% are,that means 100.How many show up in the census YET.

If the coin census,in a market much more sophisticated and mature than ours continues to grow each year,no reasonable person can assume that comics will somehow be different.

[shadroch]

why haven't you commented on Shady's 12 9.4 SA out of a collection of 2,500?

 

Why should I? As you stated many, many, many, many, many times, the word of a collector, without proof, is totally useless.

 

It's highly amusing that you have about 99% of the board against your hypothesis of "all GA, SA and BA comics are rare in HG", yet one guy comes out with a statement like that, and you're all over it.

 

Why don't you give the same weight to others who have commented? Oh yeah, because it makes you look like a newbie speculator .

 

Ok faux comic sage, lets see if we can get a prediction from you. Since you think there are tons of HG Hulk #181s 9.4 and above out there, what do you the believe the census will be for those grades in December of 2004? As of November 2003 there was 189 copies CGC 9.4 and above. Look into your magic 8-ball or rub your rabbits foot and give us your prediction. Will the census double or triple? Are you afraid to make a prediction because people will laugh at you? You probably are.

 

 

Unless you are planning to sell your books in 12 months,what difference does it make? If you are hoping to use the money for your unborn childs university funds,then all that matters is what it will be 20 years or so from now.

And I guarentee you every Bronze Age book will have tripled by then.

[MMMarvel-migration]

I live in the NYC area which is comic collecting central.

 

Oh ... my ... God. The prism narrows even further. Are you one of those guys who thinks NYC has a monopoly on museums, restaurants, and sports teams, also? Well, I got news for ya ... you're wrong on all fronts!

 

Oh... my... God. Your credibility keeps shrinking. Please name me a bigger comic collecting city than NYC? Bet you can't.

 

Ebay alone is probably the biggest market know in the industry.

 

BZZZ! It's the biggest flea market in the back issue department.

 

Pssst. Name a larger place to get back issues? Oh, that's right, you can't.

 

 

Almost every major dealer you can think of probably does business on Ebay.

 

True. But they also do more private deals in a week than they do on eBay in a year.

 

So you are telling me a dealer with a highly sought after HG comic is going to sell privately instead of going on Ebay where he can get the most money for his comic? Not likely. Comic shop owners that I know specifically put their HG stuff on Ebay to make the most profit. That is why there is only medium to low grade stuff in their stores.

 

I trust people whose claims can be verified. There is no substance that can be verified in what you or JC say.

 

What can I do that would verify my claims? Post a list of my contacts? That would be a waste of all of my hard work and goodwill I expended in building my network. Sorry, but I'm selfish.

 

That is OK. Keep your list of sources who you claim have tons of all the HG stuff and would sell strictly to you instead of having the exposure to thousands of other buyers on Ebay.

 

 

If HG comics were plentiful a person wouldn't have to be a member of some secret comic society to get all the HG comics they wanted.

 

You really haven't been collecting very long, have you?

 

Wrong again. Been collecting for 25 years (although I took a break from collecting from 1993-98).

 

The comic book market isn't like the stock market where the traded commodities have no intrinsic value other than a monetary one.

 

Guess people should throw away their Overstreet Price guides because they are meaningless, huh?

 

People hold on to their comic books for more reasons than you can imagine. As such, "prying" them onto the open market is considerably more difficult than with a stock or similar article of trade. Us collectors are a "cowardly and superstitious lot," and won't deal with just anyone. Hence, the need to garner trust, win friends, and yes, influence them into giving them up. There's no "secret society" involved with it; just simple human interaction.

 

So you basically fake a friendship with someone that has comics you want to gain their trust and then rob them blind. Interesting technique. You should get into politics.

 

 

BTW neither you or JC commented that Shady only had 12 9.4 comics out of a collection of 2,500. Why did you ignore that info? How does that revelation fit into your theory of mass quantities of HG comics by private collectors?

 

I don't know Shadroc from Adam. Thus, I cannot comment on what makes up his collection. However, he did state that he was not a high grade freak yet still had some high grade books. In actuality, his statement works against your hypothesis -- if high grade books were so rare he shouldn't have any in his collection due to his not looking for them!

 

I am quite sure that Shady or anyone else would want to by a HG copy over any Low Grade copy unless they already have a HG copy and are looking for a reader of a particular issue. It is because HG copies aren't as plentiful as you claim that most people have to settle for lesser grades.

 

Also, since you've seemed to enjoy belaboring the above, how about you answer Lighthouse's statement about selling so many raw high grade 12 centers in 2001? Or don't you believe him, either?

 

He also said most of what he gets in HG are obscure titles. The mainstream stuff is hard to find in HG. Guess you missed that. If you want some HG "Bewitched" comics from the 60s you should give him a pm. His remarks backed up my beliefs.

 

There we go again, "networks of high level contacts." Sounds to me like you are saying a person has to be a member of some sort of comic mafia to get HG comics which you claim are plentiful.

 

You know, it really sounds like you want an easy marketplace solution for high grade books. You're not going to get it; it's not the nature of the hobby. That does not mean there are not plenty of them out there to be had. They just take work to ferret out. You may find it sad, unethical, or just plain mean, but that's the way of the world. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

 

Alan

 

Like I said before, your logic doesn't match up with the facts. You want everyone to believe HG comics are plentiful, but you have to know a group of secret comic sellers to get them.

[MMMarvel-migration]

If you're so sure about the scarcity of all late Silver/Bronze 9.4's, then stop trying to convince everyone else, fire up your sniping software, and go nuts.

 

I have to resort to sniping to get HG comics that are said to be plentiful? You just proved my point again. Thank you.

 

But it seems to me that you've spent a ton on high grade keys, and are trying to convince everyone here, and yourself, that they're scarce.

 

I have bought a bunch of keys, but most of my buying was done 3-4 years ago before CGC prices went crazy. Once again if they were so plentiful the prices wouldn't be so high. Someone sitting on tons of HG back issues would surely want to get in on this high money feeding frenzy being paid for those same HG back issues before the bubble burst because they are so plentiful, wouldn't they?

 

If you need to rationalize your purchases by getting other people to agree with your points, save yourself the agrivation and sell now.

 

My point has already been proven. If you were right and I were wrong prices would be declining instead of increasing as the CGC census gets older.

[OldSchoolTerry]

Maybe there's a secret handshake we have to figure out to get into the High Grade Comic Mafia.....

 

I have to disagree with one of the points you just made. Everyone wouldn't always necessarily want a HG copy over a lower grade one. I know for a lot of books I actually want to read, I would rather just get a LG book than a HG one, so I wouldn't worry about screwing it up. That's what I've been doing since I got back into collecting, just buying books to read, and if some of them are in a nicer grade, that's gravy as far as I'm concerned.

[MMMarvel-migration]

Since you think there are tons of HG Hulk #181s 9.4 and above out there, what do you the believe the census will be for those grades in December of 2004?

 

There ARE tons of this book in HG; it was part of the MH2 collection and Chuckles had vast quantities available.

 

Now as for predictions, I have no idea what will happen in the next 12 months, but over the next decade, I'll steal a few lines from Star Wars on how many HG copies of Hulk 181 will appear in the Census:

 

"More copies than you can imagine"

 

"I don't know, I can imagine quite a bit"

 

"You'll get it"

 

 

Or as the old saying goes, there will be as many HG copies of Hulk 181 as there is needed.

 

Nice No-answer again. Guess you are afraid to be proven wrong and don't have the courage in your convictions.

 

[MMMarvel-migration]

Pedigree, thank you man.

You answered MMMs repeated requests prefectly. point by point. I especially liked you reminding him that shadrock post specifically stated that he WAS NOT a HG collector. So for MMM to trot out the 12 our of 2500 stat again and again was meaningless!

 

Yup, most people strive to avoid getting HG keys in favor of lower grades. Probably has nothing to do with the high cost of HG keys. Keep telling yourself they are plentiful if you want to help you sleep better at night dreaming of completing you SA collection cheaply.

 

As for the 9.4 census for 181 in a years time? I think thats a good bonus question we should all take a stab at for fun. Ill say it goes up at least 40 more copies this year.

 

Gee, at 40 9.4 copies a year it will take how many years for the census to reach that magic 10,000 number that JC and others think exist out there as shown in another poll in this forum? Seriously though, I think 40 or less is a pretty good guess.

 

 

[MMMarvel-migration]

40 Sounds good. I'll say almost 3 a month.

 

I would say 20-40. So at that rate of growth per year in 250 to 500 years the census will reach that magic number of 10,000 that JC and others think exist out there.

[drbanner]

[MMMarvel-migration]

Check my last 2 posts and respond. Or you can continue to avoid the issue and waffle because you are loosing the argument.

 

Why does it matter so much to believe the fallacy that 1960's and up comics are rare?

 

If 1960s and up are NOT rare in HG why don't we see hundreds of 9.4s or better Amazing Fantasy #15 or Fantastic Four #1s on the CGC census?

 

If 1960s and up are NOT rare why does a collector like Shady have only a dozen comics out of a collection of 2,500 Silver Age comics in 9.4 or better condition?

 

If 1960s and up are NOT rare why do seasoned comic veterans go crazy when a lot of HG raw silver age comics come up for sell?

 

I am a collector and I couldn't care less if there 10 or 10,000 of a certain issue in a certain grade, as I'm only concerned with buying what I like.

 

How many of your 1960-1970 comics are in 9.4 or better condition?

 

Hopefully you're not silly enough to be investing money in funny books, and hoping for some windfall based on your purchases? Otherwise, who cares?

 

Yup, I have some money in funny books. Mostly key issues like Hulk #181 whose total in the CGC census in grades of 9.4 or better only rose from 187 to 189 (or by 2) between the last 2 census updates. Gee... at that rate how long will it take to reach the 10,000 mark that some of the comic gurus claim exist?

 

Why do I have only a dozen 9.4s out of 2500? Because I was not a condition freak.

 

You are not a condition freak? What does that mean? Are you telling me you would rather have a CGC .5 Amazing Fantasy #15 instead of a CGC 9.8? I am guessing you would rather have the CGC 9.8, but like 99.9% of the comic collecting public could never afford to buy it. Those are reserved for only the BSDs.

 

The fact that I have any when I never tried to should set off all sort of alarm bells,instead of trying to use half my statement to support your theory. I was/am a comic reader. I was a dealer. Most of my 12 cent comics are left over store stock.

Did you miss the part of my post about the Robert Bell collection? Or MH2? Do you think collectors twenty years ago paid top dollar for books and then gave them to their nephews to read?

 

No, I don't think collectors paid top dollar fo comics for HG comics and gave them to their nephews to read. Because back then, as now, most mainstream comics were rare in Grade.

 

Bob Overstreet,the acknowledged top expert in the field seems to think that there are as many as 10,000 Spider-Man 1s out there. How many of them are HG? If even 1% are,that means 100.How many show up in the census YET.

If the coin census,in a market much more sophisticated and mature than ours continues to grow each year,no reasonable person can assume that comics will somehow be different.

 

Believe it or not, I hope you are right and their are 100 or more of every HG Spideys and every other mainstream comic out there. Maybe myself and others that desire to have such a comic might be able to get our hands on some in the future if that is the case. Unfortunately, I think that is just dreaming. I think the census is going to go up, but I don't see the HG of most highly collected mainstream super-hero comics increasing by huge numbers. If that was the case that guy wouldn't be offering a million dollars for a copy of Action #1 CGC 9.4 because in the near future there might be 10 such copies.

[MMMarvel-migration]

Unless you are planning to sell your books in 12 months,what difference does it make? If you are hoping to use the money for your unborn childs university funds,then all that matters is what it will be 20 years or so from now.

And I guarentee you every Bronze Age book will have tripled by then.

 

I am guessing you are probably right and every Bronze Age will have tripled in 20 years. So instead of almost 200 HG Hulk #181s there will be almost 600. That still is not an awful lot.

[MMMarvel-migration]

Maybe there's a secret handshake we have to figure out to get into the High Grade Comic Mafia.....

 

I think the only way to be a "made" High Grade Comic Mafia man is to swindle some unsuspecting Grandma out of the HG comics her dead husband left her.

 

I have to disagree with one of the points you just made. Everyone wouldn't always necessarily want a HG copy over a lower grade one. I know for a lot of books I actually want to read, I would rather just get a LG book than a HG one, so I wouldn't worry about screwing it up. That's what I've been doing since I got back into collecting, just buying books to read, and if some of them are in a nicer grade, that's gravy as far as I'm concerned.

 

Nope. There is no disagreement between us. I do the exact same thing. I bought LG readers of FF #52, 53, Amazing Adventures #11, and ASM #135 this weekend specifically to enjoy looking through them. I managed to resist my urge pay several grand on HG encapsulated copies to only break the seal and read through them even though they are so plentiful.

[MMMarvel-migration]

 

Can't do it. I just love causing a scene.