PROBATION DISCUSSIONS 21 21

[NewEnglandGothic]

Why would the seller/collector who enjoys funny-books as much as he claims to, do a sales-stunt like this to jeopardize his standing in the hobby and on these boards? He must have assumed there would be consequences. It just doesn't make sense to me in any way. :shrug:

[VintageComics]

I think Arch should just give Trey a custom title to the effect of:

 

"This person is mentally handicapped. Deal with him at your own risk."

 

... and leave it at that.

 

Being upset at Trey for violating rules is like getting mad at your new puppy for wizzing on the floor. He isn't capable of understanding that he's doing wrong.

BS. He knows exactly what he's doing. Go to a convention and watch him operate his way through Artist's Alley.

 

If I'm wrong about my assessment of him (and I'm happy to be proven so) do you have something to share about him that adds to the discussion?

 

 

[Green]

Who else has been selling PGX slabs? Allegedly.

There was another too. Some GA catman comics iirc, but i dont remember the seller.

[brendanb438]

I think Arch should just give Trey a custom title to the effect of:

 

"This person is mentally handicapped. Deal with him at your own risk."

 

... and leave it at that.

 

Being upset at Trey for violating rules is like getting mad at your new puppy for wizzing on the floor. He isn't capable of understanding that he's doing wrong.

BS. He knows exactly what he's doing. Go to a convention and watch him operate his way through Artist's Alley.

 

If I'm wrong about my assessment of him (and I'm happy to be proven so) do you have something to share about him that adds to the discussion?

 

 

 

Can we get some stories then about Trey going through an Artist Alley? What exactly is this clown doing at conventions to warrant this comment?

[PovertyRow]

Changes we need to make:

 

1) As suggested by, I believe, Sky, we need to change the Forum Selling Guidelines to require any slabbed book being sold to have a clear, readable image of the label.

 

2) I believe selling non-CGC books undisclosed is an HOS offense. I think two separate instances is enough before an HOS vote is taken. But I am open to three instances as well.

 

The first instance would result in a warning to the seller that an HOS vote will be taken on the 2nd (or 3rd) subsequent attempt.

 

3) If someone does receive a non-CGC slabbed book, they cannot deslab it for their use and then bring "charges" against the seller.

 

Thoughts on this?

 

Yes. We could water it down even further so no one ever gets put on the list and it serves absolutely no purpose whatsoever.

 

See David...this is the kind of response I keep getting from you. One shot jabs because I guess you think I took your baby from you by consolidating the practices that had already been going on and making a list. About the only real changes there are the required PM to the person being nominated to give them a chance to respond. (or do you think that is too watered down?) And the 72 hour wait from the PM being sent.

 

Everything else reflected things that had gone on again and again. So tell me exactly where the watering down is.

 

Michael,

I swear you live in a vacuum.

One, the list was always a community thing, it was never "my baby". Your comments are not only inaccurate, but offensive.

Two, there never was a need for a nomination. The list worked based on the honesty of the poster (and interestingly enough the failure of the accused to complete the transaction).

Three, your whole 72-hour thing is ridiculous, as the original rules (as simple as they be) already had 30-days built into it.

Four, each of the things you propose above are already understood to be the rules of the board. It is known and enforced by the mods that non-CGC graded books are not allowed to be posted, or sold in the public forums. Period.

Gotta run,

d

 

Well, the 72 hour thing is giving the accused a chance to defend themself before being put on the PL. That was agreed on when the rules were being written out. I am not even sure if that was my suggestion. there were many suggestions being made to clarify etc. and I would take them and incorporate them.

 

If you recall what WAS happening is that people were starting to run willy nilly just adding people to the PL as son as they were mentioned in the Probation Discussion forum. It became apparent that, there was nothing really spelling out the process, and this was causing some confusion.

 

I think you do not understand the "nomination" thing even now. It has not changed. The only person that can nominate someone to the PL is the offended party. I do believe that is how it always had been.

 

Saying the list worked on the honesty of the poster iis an ideal that has sometimes not been lived up to. We have seen instances where the accuser turned out to be the offender.

 

As far as the existing forum rules, fine. But the existing forum rules say only that selling non-CGC slabs is punishable by a strike if deemed appropriate by the Mods (it was Arch who said that). If that is the case this should be handled by the Mods and a strike given to Trey.

 

But I see no problem with taking that to the PL/HOS and making multiple offenses of selling a non-CGC slabs a HOS offense. Or is putting them on the HOS in addition to a strike from the Mods too watered down? Or is extending the PL to off-board transactions between members too watered down? (oh yeah, the off-board was the other change from the original).

[Green]

I think Arch should just give Trey a custom title to the effect of:

 

"This person is mentally handicapped. Deal with him at your own risk."

 

... and leave it at that.

 

Being upset at Trey for violating rules is like getting mad at your new puppy for wizzing on the floor. He isn't capable of understanding that he's doing wrong.

BS. He knows exactly what he's doing. Go to a convention and watch him operate his way through Artist's Alley.

 

If I'm wrong about my assessment of him (and I'm happy to be proven so) do you have something to share about him that adds to the discussion?

 

 

 

Can we get some stories then about Trey going through an Artist Alley? What exactly is this clown doing at conventions to warrant this comment?

A good job at getting some sweet sketches. Ive met trey. Super nice guy that i enjoyed talking to. Nice is not an excuse to repeatedly up.

[PovertyRow]

Changes we need to make:

 

 

3) If someone does receive a non-CGC slabbed book, they cannot deslab it for their use and then bring "charges" against the seller.

 

Thoughts on this?

 

hey PR not sure why this would be included... most sellers (even ebay) would never take a book back that has been cracked from the slab... a slabbed book has been graded and placed in a protective cover... any alteration of that cover would null and void any transaction...no way to tell if it was the same book... at least i don't think...just saying... also i think twice is appropriate... if you can make a mistake... be corrected and come back and do the same thing all over again... probably don't want to buy from you anyways~

 

Well as I have mentioned, if the buyer cracks out the book for their own use, they have tacitly agreed to the transaction. I know this is a more convoluted area but there has to be some kind of consequence for doing that. Not exactly sure what at this point. But it takes the glow of innocence off of the buyer.

[Shaven Kev-migration]

I thought the PGX rule was just to keep the CGC from advertising for the company that is basically a joke to everyone here and their competition. The PGX comic may as well be raw so there really isnt any incentive to keep it slabbed and sell it here secretly that I can see. I wouldn't pay a premium over a raw copy for a PGX slabbed book...I may even pay less since I cant inspect it.

 

Where is the incentive for sellers when it comes to listing a PGX slab vs a raw comic?

 

We all pay a premium for the CGC grade/label/slab but PGX is the laughing stock of the forum.

Edited November 20, 2011 by Shaven Kev

[PovertyRow]

I thought the PGX rule was just to keep the CGC from advertising for the company that is basically a joke to everyone here and their competition. The PGX comic may as well be raw so there really isnt any incentive to keep it slabbed and sell it here secretly that I can see. I wouldn't pay a premium over a raw copy for a PGX slabbed book...I may even pay less since I cant inspect it.

 

Where is the incentive for sellers when it comes to listing a PGX slab vs a raw comic?

 

We all pay a premium for the CGC grade/label/slab but PGX is the laughing stock of the forum.

 

There is no incentive here at any rate. A PGX book cannot, as you say, be opened for inspection. I would like to do my own page count, resto check etc on such a book.

[thehumantorch]

Who else has been selling PGX slabs? Allegedly.

There was another too. Some GA catman comics iirc, but i dont remember the seller.

 

Gator and Alannas

[Peter Loves Gwen]

Why would the seller/collector who enjoys funny-books as much as he claims to, do a sales-stunt like this to jeopardize his standing in the hobby and on these boards? He must have assumed there would be "no"consequences. It just doesn't make sense to me in any way. :shrug:

 

I agree with this sentiment, and this should be the basis for placement on the PL. I hate zero tolerance rules, and this case with Trey and Joey exemplifies that problem(mistake).

 

Following the "rules", (the book)", nobody gets on the PL. The rules as they are protect many violators who are discussed here.

 

As others have pointed out in many ways, the intent is what is most important. Did someone purposely do something very wrong? If so then the answer is not to do nothing, something should be done. The probation list isn't the HOS or any huge thing which will hurt people or really stop them cold. It's a very good simple tool that should be used if we are here to use it and support it.

 

Here we are, let's make a good use of the PL. I agree with David placing Trey on the PL, he did so because the intent to deceive was there, never mind the damn rules. The "discussion" was well documented here and obviously took place over longer than 72 hours.

 

The whole point is to admonish the wrong doer, and get them to understand that they need to improve their habits/standards/ethics. If you do nothing(how many pages now are about this), then you effectively are rewarding the offender. They will learn how much they can get away with. You must do something, and the PL is an excellent tool to teach offenders.

 

Put them on the list when the intentions are all there, reasonable time frame etc. There's always a way to get removed, we can all find that reasonable solution. Let Trey come on and apologize, in a meaningful way. The goal is not to punish I agree, but it is to force the offender to at least acknowledge publicly that they did something wrong. Regards,

[PovertyRow]

Peter you have some good points.

 

But I still would like to know why it it is OK for Joey to have removed the book from the PGX slab, put it in mylar for his own use, and then nominate Trey for selling PGX books.

 

Am I the only person seeing something very much askew with this?

[DrWatson]

Peter you have some good points.

 

But I still would like to know why it it is OK for Joey to have removed the book from the PGX slab, put it in mylar for his own use, and then nominate Trey for selling PGX books.

 

Am I the only person seeing something very much askew with this?

Probably not, but Trey shouldn't have been selling PGX books and lying about it to begin with. It doesn't matter if Joey stuck the book up his arse when he received it.

[N/A]

Peter you have some good points.

 

But I still would like to know why it it is OK for Joey to have removed the book from the PGX slab, put it in mylar for his own use, and then nominate Trey for selling PGX books.

 

Am I the only person seeing something very much askew with this?

Probably not, but Trey shouldn't have been selling PGX books and lying about it to begin with. It doesn't matter if Joey stuck the book up his arse when he received it.

 

If nobody had purchased the book Trey would still be in the wrong for selling or attempting to sell PGX books.

[PovertyRow]

Peter you have some good points.

 

But I still would like to know why it it is OK for Joey to have removed the book from the PGX slab, put it in mylar for his own use, and then nominate Trey for selling PGX books.

 

Am I the only person seeing something very much askew with this?

 

Probably not, but Trey shouldn't have been selling PGX books and lying about it to begin with. It doesn't matter if Joey stuck the book up his arse when he received it.

 

It does if he decides to nominate for the PL. By doing that he both acknowledged and accepted the deal. He made himself a supporter of it and a part of it. It was qapparent he would have said nothing about it. Until the feedback fiasco.

 

It is not unlike receiving stolen goods. Yes, the thief was wrong to steal. Was the receiver in the right to know they were stolen and still accept them?

 

 

[Peter Loves Gwen]

I believe Joey about the issue being minor enough to him to not pursue it, so he read it and stored it. I don't think the person directly offended needs to be the only one who can nominate or place them on the PL. If the evidence is clearly available, another should be able to do it.

 

This story is extremely obvious to everyone, what is unclear to anyone about what happened? The first posting of the private messages is enough to prove that the intent to deceive was there. The many comments from several other members support the idea that previous issues have been worthy of action. I think it's time, the jury has been locked away for enough time to figure out what's going on already.

 

The PGX comics are suspect by almost everyone, for the actual grade and restoration certification. I do not fault anyone ever for cracking one out. If Joey had found something then he should have been able to bring up that subject and see about returning it. That's a bigger problem then, if that had happened. Then we'd be discussing how the PL "rules" condemn Joey for opening it. That's another reason zero tolerance rules are bad. You must use common sense to temper any rules, there is very often a better solution than obeying the rule book. That's the perfect justification to toss anyone selling a PGX book here onto the PL.

[PovertyRow]

Peter you have some good points.

 

But I still would like to know why it it is OK for Joey to have removed the book from the PGX slab, put it in mylar for his own use, and then nominate Trey for selling PGX books.

 

Am I the only person seeing something very much askew with this?

Probably not, but Trey shouldn't have been selling PGX books and lying about it to begin with. It doesn't matter if Joey stuck the book up his arse when he received it.

 

If nobody had purchased the book Trey would still be in the wrong for selling or attempting to sell PGX books.

 

But someone did buy the book. and would have accepted it and not revealed it. That is not an "if" scenario but what actually happened.

 

If this is all supposed to be in support of the community, how would Joey's taking the book and deslabbing it for his collection support the community?

[joeypost]

Peter you have some good points.

 

But I still would like to know why it it is OK for Joey to have removed the book from the PGX slab, put it in mylar for his own use, and then nominate Trey for selling PGX books.

 

Am I the only person seeing something very much askew with this?

 

Probably not, but Trey shouldn't have been selling PGX books and lying about it to begin with. It doesn't matter if Joey stuck the book up his arse when he received it.

 

It does if he decides to nominate for the PL. By doing that he both acknowledged and accepted the deal. He made himself a supporter of it and a part of it. It was qapparent he would have said nothing about it. Until the feedback fiasco.

 

It is not unlike receiving stolen goods. Yes, the thief was wrong to steal. Was the receiver in the right to know they were stolen and still accept them?

 

 

As I have said many times before I made a mistake in not outing him the second I saw the slab was a PGX slab. The 500 things I have to do during the day took my mind off of it until Trey reminded me with his solicitation for feedback.

 

My failure to alert the boards immediately is all I am at fault for. And in all honesty I forgot about his other attempts to sell here without having the goods in hand. When they were brought to my attention I acted as I have said in numerous posts in both threads dealing with the sale.

 

Anyone who really knows me on the boards know I am always days late with correspondence, even when I am owed money.

[PovertyRow]

I don't think the person directly offended needs to be the only one who can nominate or place them on the PL.

 

Actually, they are. the first rule states "If a transaction between board members is not completed within 30 days, the offended party may submit the offender's name for inclusion to the HOS/Probation List" (bold mine)

 

 

 

That's the perfect justification to toss anyone selling a PGX book here onto the PL.

 

My own feeling is that is better for the HOS. And in the HOS there is a community vote and the specificity of the PL cited rule above is not involved.

 

 

[Speedy-D]

Peter you have some good points.

 

But I still would like to know why it it is OK for Joey to have removed the book from the PGX slab, put it in mylar for his own use, and then nominate Trey for selling PGX books.

 

Am I the only person seeing something very much askew with this?

At worst it's hypocritical, but that's between Joey & Joey. It doesn't affect anyone else if he buys a PGX comic and keeps it. I've bought PGX comics and cracked them, and I feel no guilt about it.