PROBATION DISCUSSIONS 21 21

[Timmay]

Tuesday or Wednesday of this week. Payment was sent via paypal on 11/10/2011. IIRC he mailed it out Monday. Payment, now that I look at it was sent not to Trey but to a Ronnie Chandler. Not sure who that is.

 

 

That's his brother who owns the comic shop.

[joeypost]

Peter you have some good points.

 

But I still would like to know why it it is OK for Joey to have removed the book from the PGX slab, put it in mylar for his own use, and then nominate Trey for selling PGX books.

 

Am I the only person seeing something very much askew with this?

Probably not, but Trey shouldn't have been selling PGX books and lying about it to begin with. It doesn't matter if Joey stuck the book up his arse when he received it.

 

If nobody had purchased the book Trey would still be in the wrong for selling or attempting to sell PGX books.

 

But someone did buy the book. and would have accepted it and not revealed it. That is not an "if" scenario but what actually happened.

 

If this is all supposed to be in support of the community, how would Joey's taking the book and deslabbing it for his collection support the community?

It was all a masterful plot to discredit Trey Cannon. You sleuthed him out. He would've gotten away with it if it hadn't been for you meddling kids.

 

Oh, and the next time Trey has a sales thread, load your buggy up. Throw your support and the support of the community behind him. (thumbs u

 

So you consider my proposal that what he did is not PL worthy but instead is HOS worthy to be throwing support to him? How do you figure that?

Probation List or Hall of Shame, what difference does it make? Check whatever box makes you feel good and move on. My God, it's like talking to a government worker.

 

I'd like Doc to explain why he thinks Trey is so good at getting sketches?

 

My dad used to have a phrase....smart-stupid.

 

People that acted dumb but in fact were extremely smart and manipulative.

 

I know you read my posts even though you have me on ignore and brendanb438 also asked, so fess up.

 

Is this what you are saying Trey is doing?

 

If you watch him in action, he does not appear to be someone with a handicap. Not saying one does not exist, but he knows what he is doing at shows. I saw him in action at Mega-Con a few years ago.

[VintageComics]

Who else has been selling PGX slabs? Allegedly.

There was another too. Some GA catman comics iirc, but i dont remember the seller.

 

Gator and Alannas

 

My

 

I think Trey just felt it was OK to bend the rules deal with PGX books "under the table" so to speak in a "nudge, nudge, wink, wink" kind of way because

 

a) he'd bought PGX books from other's selling threads

b) he's seen others selling "non CGC graded" books in other selling threads

 

and assumed that on the sly he could slide a sale through. Kind of like not making a full stop at a stop sign or crossing over the yellow lines in a parking lot.

 

In the end if it gets enforced you will get caught and fined.

 

Because Trey isn't a master mind criminal he got caught with his pants down, and badly and got taken to town on it.

 

When he got pressed he reacted in exactly the wrong way. As if all the people that followed his first thread didn't know how he was going to react this time around.

 

 

I personally don't see it as Probation List material as he wasn't trying to defraud anyone although he did break the rules (technically) and should be possibly nominated to the HOS and asked to apologize.

 

And you have to be fair to Trey, so if this is the precedent that people want to set then maybe GAtor and alanna and Dale Roberts should have their knuckles rapped too for allegedly selling PGX books.

 

Is this starting to sound a little ridiculous to anybody else?

 

 

ps. I like Trey, Watson, Joey, GAtor, Alanna and Dale. Just trying to show a point.

 

 

[joeypost]

This all took place in the last 10 days. Are you saying 30 days have passed and the statute of limitations to complain no longer exist?

 

The 30 day rule is not a statute of limitations. It is the amount of time that has to go by for a bad transaction to be made good before the PL process begins.

 

Why was it mentioned none of this mattered since 30 days had expired?

[PovertyRow]

I appreciate the "government worker" comment. It works nicely in my sigline. Thank you! (thumbs u

Go with "Dolphin of Reason." You'll feel better in the morning.

 

 

 

Much improved sig now! (thumbs u

[VintageComics]

 

The difference is that what we do with the PL has impact on future PL additions. If the door is open to one thing it will be the wedge that gets wider and pushed the door open more.

 

 

Perspective. It's awesome.

[DrWatson]

The difference is that what we do with the PL has impact on future PL additions. If the door is open to one thing it will be the wedge that gets wider and pushed the door open more.

And what great evil are we opening the door to by adding him to the probation list as opposed to the hall of the shame?

[joeypost]

Who else has been selling PGX slabs? Allegedly.

There was another too. Some GA catman comics iirc, but i dont remember the seller.

 

Gator and Alannas

 

My

 

I think Trey just felt it was OK to bend the rules deal with PGX books "under the table" so to speak in a "nudge, nudge, wink, wink" kind of way because

 

a) he'd bought PGX books from other's selling threads

b) he's seen others selling "non CGC graded" books in other selling threads

 

and assumed that on the sly he could slide a sale through. Kind of like not making a full stop at a stop sign or crossing over the yellow lines in a parking lot.

 

In the end if it gets enforced you will get caught and fined.

 

Because Trey isn't a master mind criminal he got caught with his pants down, and badly and got taken to town on it.

 

When he got pressed he reacted in exactly the wrong way. As if all the people that followed his first thread didn't know how he was going to react this time around.

 

 

I personally don't see it as Probation List material as he wasn't trying to defraud anyone although he did break the rules (technically) and should be possibly nominated to the HOS and asked to apologize.

 

And you have to be fair to Trey, so if this is the precedent that people want to set then maybe GAtor and alanna and Dale Roberts should have their knuckles rapped too for allegedly selling PGX books.

 

Is this starting to sound a little ridiculous to anybody else?

 

 

ps. I like Trey, Watson, Joey, GAtor, Alanna and Dale. Just trying to show a point.

 

 

Maybe if Lennie Small was taught it was not OK to kill small animals and stroke them he would not have killed Curly's wife.

[Bosco685]

I appreciate the "government worker" comment. It works nicely in my sigline. Thank you! (thumbs u

Go with "Dolphin of Reason." You'll feel better in the morning.

 

 

 

Much improved sig now! (thumbs u

[VintageComics]

If you watch him in action, he does not appear to be someone with a handicap. Not saying one does not exist, but he knows what he is doing at shows. I saw him in action at Mega-Con a few years ago.

 

An autistic kid who loves to draw can draw the entire city of Rome quickly and efficiently down to the smallest details after one short helicopter ride around the city from memory but he can't even take care of his own basic necessities. True story.

 

Trey may be able to get sketches because he loves them but maybe doesn't understand the finer nuances of chat board ethics because other members in good standing have blurred that line for him through breaking those very rules themselves.

 

It's very easy for any of us to get tunnel visioned. I'm a master at it so I would know.

 

 

[PovertyRow]

The difference is that what we do with the PL has impact on future PL additions. If the door is open to one thing it will be the wedge that gets wider and pushed the door open more.

And what great evil are we opening the door to by adding him the probation list as opposed to the hall of the shame?

 

Well, for one thing, 30 days has apparently not elapsed but according to Joey only 10 days. We are supposed to allow 30 days for the two of them to come to an agreement or for restitution to occur. This leaves 20 days for the two of them to work something out.

 

We let this in we may as well drop the 30 days and just start adding people the day after a problem occurs.

 

My apologies - I just assumed, and since the sales thread had been deleted I had no idea when this took place.

 

 

[VintageComics]

 

Maybe if Lennie Small was taught it was not OK to kill small animals and stroke them he would not have killed Curly's wife.

 

Yup, consequences are awesome too.

 

If it was me I probably would have settled it privately via PM and then had him post an apology on the boards.

 

It would have been a lot of work and time consuming on my part but a much more positive outcome IMO.

 

I know because that's what I did when he and I had our first run in when that fiasco with the brother happened.

 

Anyhow, I'm out.

 

Good luck in finding a resolution, all!

 

[joeypost]

If you watch him in action, he does not appear to be someone with a handicap. Not saying one does not exist, but he knows what he is doing at shows. I saw him in action at Mega-Con a few years ago.

 

An autistic kid who loves to draw can draw the entire city of Rome quickly and efficiently down to the smallest details after one short helicopter ride around the city from memory but he can't even take care of his own basic necessities. True story.

 

Trey may be able to get sketches because he loves them but maybe doesn't understand the finer nuances of chat board ethics because other members in good standing have blurred that line for him through breaking those very rules themselves.

 

It's very easy for any of us to get tunnel visioned. I'm a master at it so I would know.

 

It is bad behavior, and like any behavior it is learned and at one time could have been controlled. If not, being on the PL or HOS is the very least of his problems.

[Peter Loves Gwen]

I don't think the person directly offended needs to be the only one who can nominate or place them on the PL.

 

Actually, they are. the first rule states "If a transaction between board members is not completed within 30 days, the offended party may submit the offender's name for inclusion to the HOS/Probation List" (bold mine)

 

 

 

That's the perfect justification to toss anyone selling a PGX book here onto the PL.

 

My own feeling is that is better for the HOS. And in the HOS there is a community vote and the specificity of the PL cited rule above is not involved.

 

The bottom line in this whole fiasco is that:

 

1- Neither should be on the PL since neither Trey nor Joey committed any PL violations as per the rules

 

2- Joey should have come out with the news of the PGX slab the moment he received it, if it was a problem for him, but he chose not to and just kept the book

 

3- Trey violated rule #1 from the selling guidelines and should be handled by the mods if they desire to take any action

 

4- We should all know better than to deal with Trey as a seller

 

And with that I leave the lengthy and inane discussion.

 

 

 

These posts are what is wrong with the rules. By the logic in them no one did anything to get placed on the PL.

 

That is wrong, that is entirely wrong, and that's my point about praying to books, rules. The rules cannot be made to cover every possible event. Stop trying to apply the rules to everything.

 

Stop wasting time with the rules, and go straight to the proper solution. As said, by 15+ pages of discussion, Trey messed up. Put him on the list, because it's the right thing to do. Not because the rules say so, but simply because it's the right thing to do.

 

What happened to the old school learning where elders taught you right from wrong? You learned to do the right thing, yes you got spanked for messing up, but you learned better and improved your behavior. That was common sense, the elders didn't negotiate with the offender or the neighbors to figure out what to do. They made a decision based on common sense, and bam, case closed.

 

This is not a court of law, we do not have to, or need to, adhere to absolutely every word of the rules. The solution is not complicated, stop bringing up the stupid rules over and over again. The rules do not apply here, but the solution is the same, put the name on the list. Do it, get it over with, and drop the subject.

[Bio-Rupp]

This all took place in the last 10 days. Are you saying 30 days have passed and the statute of limitations to complain no longer exist?

 

The 30 day rule is not a statute of limitations. It is the amount of time that has to go by for a bad transaction to be made good before the PL process begins.

 

Why was it mentioned none of this mattered since 30 days had expired?

 

My apologies Joey... I was under the understanding that you had this book for longer than 30 days. After so many pages, it gets mind-numbing to read.

 

According to PL rules...if you feel shafted, you have to contact him and ask him to make it right. If he doesn't honor your request with a refund after 30 days, you can bring it here to the PD board. That was the way I believed the rule worked.

 

If you keep the book, you accept what it is, was and was ever going to be.

 

If Trey offered you a refund, then take it. You said you were going to keep the book, but if you feel strongly enough about the situation, then return it.

[DrWatson]

The difference is that what we do with the PL has impact on future PL additions. If the door is open to one thing it will be the wedge that gets wider and pushed the door open more.

And what great evil are we opening the door to by adding him the probation list as opposed to the hall of the shame?

 

Well, for one thing, 30 days has apparently not elapsed but according to Joey only 10 days. We are supposed to allow 30 days for the two of them to come to an agreement or for restitution to occur. This leaves 20 days for the two of them to work something out.

 

We let this in we may as well drop the 30 days and just start adding people the day after a problem occurs.

 

My apologies - I just assumed, and since the sales thread had been deleted I had no idea when this took place.

How is the thirty day rule even applicable when his violation is intentionally altering scans so he can sell a product that is expressly forbidden to be sold on the CGC message boards?

[VintageComics]

If you watch him in action, he does not appear to be someone with a handicap. Not saying one does not exist, but he knows what he is doing at shows. I saw him in action at Mega-Con a few years ago.

 

An autistic kid who loves to draw can draw the entire city of Rome quickly and efficiently down to the smallest details after one short helicopter ride around the city from memory but he can't even take care of his own basic necessities. True story.

 

Trey may be able to get sketches because he loves them but maybe doesn't understand the finer nuances of chat board ethics because other members in good standing have blurred that line for him through breaking those very rules themselves.

 

It's very easy for any of us to get tunnel visioned. I'm a master at it so I would know.

 

It is bad behavior, and like any behavior it is learned and at one time could have been controlled. If not, being on the PL or HOS is the very least of his problems.

 

 

Absolutely, but he needs to understand the point of the entire matter.

 

This is an important point and I believe at the heart of the matter: Not all behaviour is learned. Much of it is genetic and you are born with it. I am 100 sure of that.

 

My 14 year old daughter is a worrier, but I knew instinctively she was going to be from newborn before she could ever have learned to worry. When I realized how sensitive she was to others feelings as a newborn I was driven to tears because I knew how difficult of a life she had ahead of her. True story. I can tell you know I knew if you want me to.

 

Branding Trey with a branding iron and locking him in the cellar is going to accomplish nothing if he doesn't realize that it's not OK for him OR others to sell PGX books here.

 

The punishment needs to not only be accurate to fit the crime, it needs to be fair for all.

 

[Bio-Rupp]

The difference is that what we do with the PL has impact on future PL additions. If the door is open to one thing it will be the wedge that gets wider and pushed the door open more.

And what great evil are we opening the door to by adding him the probation list as opposed to the hall of the shame?

 

Well, for one thing, 30 days has apparently not elapsed but according to Joey only 10 days. We are supposed to allow 30 days for the two of them to come to an agreement or for restitution to occur. This leaves 20 days for the two of them to work something out.

 

We let this in we may as well drop the 30 days and just start adding people the day after a problem occurs.

 

My apologies - I just assumed, and since the sales thread had been deleted I had no idea when this took place.

How is the thirty day rule even applicable when his violation is intentionally altering scans so he can sell a product that is expressly forbidden to be sold on the CGC message boards?

 

Looks a little bit like democracy

[joeypost]

This all took place in the last 10 days. Are you saying 30 days have passed and the statute of limitations to complain no longer exist?

 

The 30 day rule is not a statute of limitations. It is the amount of time that has to go by for a bad transaction to be made good before the PL process begins.

 

Why was it mentioned none of this mattered since 30 days had expired?

 

My apologies Joey... I was under the understanding that you had this book for longer than 30 days. After so many pages, it gets mind-numbing to read.

 

According to PL rules...if you feel shafted, you have to contact him and ask him to make it right. If he doesn't honor your request with a refund after 30 days, you can bring it here to the PD board. That was the way I believed the rule worked.

 

If you keep the book, you accept what it is, was and was ever going to be.

 

If Trey offered you a refund, then take it. You said you were going to keep the book, but if you feel strongly enough about the situation, then return it.

 

I understand how things can become convoluted. I don't think I could read through this whole thread again.Trey does not want it back since I cracked it out, and especially after I outed him. Those who read the PM he posted would have seen this at the very end the message.

 

I am going to keep it.

 

 

[VintageComics]

The difference is that what we do with the PL has impact on future PL additions. If the door is open to one thing it will be the wedge that gets wider and pushed the door open more.

And what great evil are we opening the door to by adding him the probation list as opposed to the hall of the shame?

 

Well, for one thing, 30 days has apparently not elapsed but according to Joey only 10 days. We are supposed to allow 30 days for the two of them to come to an agreement or for restitution to occur. This leaves 20 days for the two of them to work something out.

 

We let this in we may as well drop the 30 days and just start adding people the day after a problem occurs.

 

My apologies - I just assumed, and since the sales thread had been deleted I had no idea when this took place.

How is the thirty day rule even applicable when his violation is intentionally altering scans so he can sell a product that is expressly forbidden to be sold on the CGC message boards?

 

I agree. Also everyone else that ever sold a PGX book since the rules were instituted needs to be hunted down and thrown on the list too.