PROBATION DISCUSSIONS 21 21

[jsilverjanet]

yes and yes. I think everyone here has said they would mention tape and if they weren't aware would fix the situation. My crime was that I wanted out of the deal so as soon as I say that my rights as the consumer are null and void. At some point regardless of how I felt the seller needs to explain their return policy in general, no matter what they think the motivation of the consumer is. If there is a legitimate complaint about the purchase the seller should at minimum recognize it and try to correct it. They don't have to necessarily give the buyer what he wants but at least an attempt to correct the mistake should take place.

 

sorry but everytime I see someone see my point of view it reinvigorates my stance. need to take a chill pill

[comix4fun]

I personally don't agree with the "customer is always right" because I've experience as I'm sure many of you have also that it's not always true. However as a seller I try my best to CMA, which I think we all do i.e. undergrade for example. That being said, the question I have for some of you is aka the question the jury needs to ask themselves

 

if you purchased a book, that you did get scans for, that the seller said was vg/f and you received the book and found tape and a tear on the bottom staple, would you feel you the seller needed to correct the situation even though no refund policy was stated/agreed to or would you chalk it up to "lesson learned"

 

Also I'll add the book was over $200 (because I know there's a difference between a purchase of a $10 book and a $200 book)

 

the rest of the transaction is noise between me/Gambit. I get why he's refusing to refund me. That's understandable and I see those who are making that a key point.

 

 

 

I think at this point there's enough 'reasonableness' from both points of view that it will be tough to get any type of consensus opinion here on the boards over what to do. Both people made errors, a lot of boardies are less sympathetic to buyers AND sellers who transact in raws (esp mid grade) w/o scans. Add in the new CGC grading rules, and you've got a big muddlefest, not to be confused with a cuddlefest.

 

So the verdict appears to be....please work it out yourselves....or don't.....but support to get on the PL probably won't be had....

 

Thanks everyone - I guess I'm not right but I'm not wrong and in the end that's ok.

verdict - lesson learned

 

Lessons learned:

1. Don't buy hype books

2. Don't buy books one cannot afford

 

3. Don't buy from sellers who sell books with undisclosed defects & have a "no returns accepted" policy :thumbsup:

 

Especially with no scans before you commit.

 

Thinking about it, I think their communications after the initial commitment have colored everything that's occurred hence.

 

If this were a deal between you and I, I would accept any return on anything no matter what. We know each other well enough that we can trust the other.

 

These people don't know each other. All they have to go on is 1) immediate buyer's remorse, 2) admission of "hype buying, followed up by attempts to return.

 

I can see both sides of this, but I think that their limited experience with each other is the biggest impediment to trust and resolution.

 

But ... the buyer has mentioned several times that they did ask for - and received - scans of the books prior to actually buying them. And that the tape wasn't shown in the scans :shrug:

 

 

Actually, I don't think that's what happened. He took the books sight unseen. The scans came after commitment to buy. The scans seemed to be gratuitous. I saw no mention of the sale being contingent upon , or "pending", the photos, just that they were in the grade promised.

 

By his own admission he regretted the purchase immediately, it's impossible for me to believe that he no longer regrets the purchase at all and this attempt to return is only because of the tiny piece of tape that does not drop the book from the promised grade.

 

If the current market for the book is a factor, or buyer's remorse factors into the decision to attempt to return the book in any way you have to be reluctant to accept that not seeing that 1/2 inch piece of tape on a reader grade book is the sole reason for return.

[jsilverjanet]

I personally don't agree with the "customer is always right" because I've experience as I'm sure many of you have also that it's not always true. However as a seller I try my best to CMA, which I think we all do i.e. undergrade for example. That being said, the question I have for some of you is aka the question the jury needs to ask themselves

 

if you purchased a book, that you did get scans for, that the seller said was vg/f and you received the book and found tape and a tear on the bottom staple, would you feel you the seller needed to correct the situation even though no refund policy was stated/agreed to or would you chalk it up to "lesson learned"

 

Also I'll add the book was over $200 (because I know there's a difference between a purchase of a $10 book and a $200 book)

 

the rest of the transaction is noise between me/Gambit. I get why he's refusing to refund me. That's understandable and I see those who are making that a key point.

 

 

 

I think at this point there's enough 'reasonableness' from both points of view that it will be tough to get any type of consensus opinion here on the boards over what to do. Both people made errors, a lot of boardies are less sympathetic to buyers AND sellers who transact in raws (esp mid grade) w/o scans. Add in the new CGC grading rules, and you've got a big muddlefest, not to be confused with a cuddlefest.

 

So the verdict appears to be....please work it out yourselves....or don't.....but support to get on the PL probably won't be had....

 

Thanks everyone - I guess I'm not right but I'm not wrong and in the end that's ok.

verdict - lesson learned

 

Lessons learned:

1. Don't buy hype books

2. Don't buy books one cannot afford

 

3. Don't buy from sellers who sell books with undisclosed defects & have a "no returns accepted" policy :thumbsup:

 

Especially with no scans before you commit.

 

Thinking about it, I think their communications after the initial commitment have colored everything that's occurred hence.

 

If this were a deal between you and I, I would accept any return on anything no matter what. We know each other well enough that we can trust the other.

 

These people don't know each other. All they have to go on is 1) immediate buyer's remorse, 2) admission of "hype buying, followed up by attempts to return.

 

I can see both sides of this, but I think that their limited experience with each other is the biggest impediment to trust and resolution.

 

But ... the buyer has mentioned several times that they did ask for - and received - scans of the books prior to actually buying them. And that the tape wasn't shown in the scans :shrug:

 

 

Actually, I don't think that's what happened. He took the books sight unseen. The scans came after commitment to buy. The scans seemed to be gratuitous. I saw no mention of the sale being contingent upon , or "pending", the photos, just that they were in the grade promised.

 

By his own admission he regretted the purchase immediately, it's impossible for me to believe that he no longer regrets the purchase at all and this attempt to return is only because of the tiny piece of tape that does not drop the book from the promised grade.

 

If the current market for the book is a factor, or buyer's remorse factors into the decision to attempt to return the book in any way you have to be reluctant to accept that not seeing that 1/2 inch piece of tape on a reader grade book is the sole reason for return.

 

it's a small piece of tape for you but a large piece for mankind. It's a bit unfair that my initial remorse now hurts my credibility in this matter, however I made the mistake of trying to get out of the deal, tried to make up for it etc so I understand why I'm being viewed this way. That being said what about the credibility of the seller. What about the seller not trying to keep the deal closed without returns because of my attempt to return in the first place. While I know you are trying to be impartial you fail to look at the sellers fault for missing the tape and the tear on the bottom staple. What about the responsibility of the seller in disclosing information on the book that was sold. Furthermore what about the seller's use of my credibility to remove themselves from any responsibility as a seller. How is that a factor against me but not against him

Edited August 14, 2013 by jsilverjanet

[N/A]

If a seller misses something then they did not sell me what they claimed. I don't believe in a no return policy. It shouldn't justify lazy sellers.

 

I can't speak for Gambit, but this situation seems more about selling a $XXX book and while it's dropped in value, the buyer want's his original $XXX back, even though it's not worth $XXX, it's worth less.

 

The tape issues just seems to be a convenient noose to hang the seller with. Tape is not going to affect a VG grade, as it's part of the flaws within that grading criteria. Tape would not deter the sale of a VG graded book. It may discourage some buyers, but there would be plenty that could care less - so it's not like it's been completely devalued.

 

The seller got himself in a twist by selling books without scans and accidentaly overgrading the book by missing an inside flaw - which can happen to anyone, myself included. This is not a NM book with tape. It's slightly overgraded and it's being blown out of proportion for the sake of doing so.

 

In a perfect world, it'd be great to see a partial refund given for a slight overgrade and be done with it, with heavy learning lessons around.

 

My apologies as I didn't read all the posts. I was speaking in general in response to Roy's statement about selling.

[GAMBIT]

The piece of tape on 2nd book is the crutch he is using to get out of 1 of the books he bought (when he already tired to get out of both of them due to "falling for the hype"). Books where sold as vg/f and the census is both books are at least that. Any other problems he "has" could be resolved if the core reason wasn't just to get out if a book he over paid during hype ,regardless if that will cost the seller (me) a sale I would have had 4xs over had he not committed to buy the books in haste

 

The book was sold for xxx amount the book now goes for a third the price, he knows that and wanted out before even seeing the books, now that hype is low/gone

 

No where have I ever stated a "no return policy" however please tell me what seller accept returns because buyer fell into hype.. (After the hype calms down wants a refund) then goes and tries to find any reason to get out of the deal . I sold him the books as advertise (vg/f ) and the census agree both books are at least that

 

 

I do agree, lesson learned. I will not sell without scans again (even though with scans I feel this buyer would have acted the same way since his original reason to get out of said deal was due to "falling for hype ")

 

That's the story in a nut shell.. Whatever twist this buyer wants to make to give his reasoning support is moot. I think most would agree

[VintageComics]

If a seller misses something then they did not sell me what they claimed. I don't believe in a no return policy. It shouldn't justify lazy sellers.

 

You don't have to accept a no return policy. You can just walk away from that seller and ignore it.

 

on the other hand, if you pull the trigger on a book that has no returns stated ahead of time though, then it's all on you because you agreed with those terms before pulling the trigger.

 

The only defense would be if the "no returns" was not clearly stated in this case.

 

Otherwise, it's just another case of people not taking accountability for their actions and wanted to have their cake and eat it too.

 

For what it's worth though, I agree with you in keeping customers happy.

 

 

[comix4fun]

I personally don't agree with the "customer is always right" because I've experience as I'm sure many of you have also that it's not always true. However as a seller I try my best to CMA, which I think we all do i.e. undergrade for example. That being said, the question I have for some of you is aka the question the jury needs to ask themselves

 

if you purchased a book, that you did get scans for, that the seller said was vg/f and you received the book and found tape and a tear on the bottom staple, would you feel you the seller needed to correct the situation even though no refund policy was stated/agreed to or would you chalk it up to "lesson learned"

 

Also I'll add the book was over $200 (because I know there's a difference between a purchase of a $10 book and a $200 book)

 

the rest of the transaction is noise between me/Gambit. I get why he's refusing to refund me. That's understandable and I see those who are making that a key point.

 

 

 

I think at this point there's enough 'reasonableness' from both points of view that it will be tough to get any type of consensus opinion here on the boards over what to do. Both people made errors, a lot of boardies are less sympathetic to buyers AND sellers who transact in raws (esp mid grade) w/o scans. Add in the new CGC grading rules, and you've got a big muddlefest, not to be confused with a cuddlefest.

 

So the verdict appears to be....please work it out yourselves....or don't.....but support to get on the PL probably won't be had....

 

Thanks everyone - I guess I'm not right but I'm not wrong and in the end that's ok.

verdict - lesson learned

 

Lessons learned:

1. Don't buy hype books

2. Don't buy books one cannot afford

 

3. Don't buy from sellers who sell books with undisclosed defects & have a "no returns accepted" policy :thumbsup:

 

Especially with no scans before you commit.

 

Thinking about it, I think their communications after the initial commitment have colored everything that's occurred hence.

 

If this were a deal between you and I, I would accept any return on anything no matter what. We know each other well enough that we can trust the other.

 

These people don't know each other. All they have to go on is 1) immediate buyer's remorse, 2) admission of "hype buying, followed up by attempts to return.

 

I can see both sides of this, but I think that their limited experience with each other is the biggest impediment to trust and resolution.

 

But ... the buyer has mentioned several times that they did ask for - and received - scans of the books prior to actually buying them. And that the tape wasn't shown in the scans :shrug:

 

 

Actually, I don't think that's what happened. He took the books sight unseen. The scans came after commitment to buy. The scans seemed to be gratuitous. I saw no mention of the sale being contingent upon , or "pending", the photos, just that they were in the grade promised.

 

By his own admission he regretted the purchase immediately, it's impossible for me to believe that he no longer regrets the purchase at all and this attempt to return is only because of the tiny piece of tape that does not drop the book from the promised grade.

 

If the current market for the book is a factor, or buyer's remorse factors into the decision to attempt to return the book in any way you have to be reluctant to accept that not seeing that 1/2 inch piece of tape on a reader grade book is the sole reason for return.

 

it's a small piece of tape for you but a large piece for mankind. It's a bit unfair that my initial remorse now hurts my credibility in this matter, however I made the mistake of trying to get out of the deal, tried to make up for it etc so I understand why I'm being viewed this way. That being said what about the credibility of the seller. What about the seller not trying to keep the deal closed without returns because of my attempt to return in the first place. While I know you are trying to be impartial you fail to look at the sellers fault for missing the tape and the tear on the bottom staple. What about the responsibility of the seller in disclosing information on the book that was sold.

 

 

What I meant by bringing up your buyer's remorse is that the seller doesn't have any other information to go on other than that experience. It's impossible for people to ignore their own experiences with the person they are dealing with when trying to divine intent.

 

As for the seller's need to disclose the tape. If that tape knocked it out of the grade range in question he absolutely needed to disclose the change in grade and why. If it falls in the same low grade then you aren't in a different position than you would have anticipated to be in when you committed to a vg/f book with no scans in the first place.

 

Lower grade books can have any number of defects and issues. Which is why there's a danger to buying without seeing the book ahead of time and without making any specific concerns regarding specific undesired defects (tape, spine tears) known to him. If those potential peeves are unknown and the book falls into the grade promised then you don't have a beef when those are some of the accumulated defects in a lower grade book.

 

The byproduct of haste is usually remorse. It's hard for me to put the blame for that haste on the seller if the book does indeed hit the grade promised.

[jsilverjanet]

The piece of tape on 2nd book is the crutch he is using to get out of 1 of the books he bought (when he already tired to get out of both of them due to "falling for the hype"). Books where sold as vg/f and the census is both books are at least that. Any other problems he "has" could be resolved if the core reason wasn't just to get out if a book he over paid during hype ,regardless if that will cost the seller (me) a sale I would have had 4xs over had he not committed to buy the books in haste

 

The book was sold for xxx amount the book now goes for a third the price he knows that and wanted out before even seeing this book now that hype is low/gone

 

No where have I ever stated a "no return policy" however please tell me what seller accept returns because buyer fell into hype.. (After the hype calms down wants a refund) then goes and tries to find any reason to get out of the deal . I sold him the books as advertise (vg/f ) and the census agree both books are at least that

 

 

I do agree, lesson learned. I will not sell without scans again (even though with scans I feel this buyer would have acted the same way since his original reason to get out of said deal was due to "falling for hype ")

 

That's the story in a nut shell.. Whatever twist this buyer wants to make to give his reasoning support is moot. I think most would agree

 

book has tape and a tear on the bottom staple - please see the pics i posted. The book you sold me mentioned none of that - to be clear you are refusing a return on a book that you did not mention tape or the tear on the bottom staple - please confirm (stop bring up the rest of the noise). I paid for 2 books in vg/f, one doesn't appear in that grade - so you are refusing to refund any amount whether full or partial.

[jsilverjanet]

 

 

really this is VG/F???

[Dr. Balls]

If a seller misses something then they did not sell me what they claimed. I don't believe in a no return policy. It shouldn't justify lazy sellers.

 

I can't speak for Gambit, but this situation seems more about selling a $XXX book and while it's dropped in value, the buyer want's his original $XXX back, even though it's not worth $XXX, it's worth less.

 

The tape issues just seems to be a convenient noose to hang the seller with. Tape is not going to affect a VG grade, as it's part of the flaws within that grading criteria. Tape would not deter the sale of a VG graded book. It may discourage some buyers, but there would be plenty that could care less - so it's not like it's been completely devalued.

 

The seller got himself in a twist by selling books without scans and accidentaly overgrading the book by missing an inside flaw - which can happen to anyone, myself included. This is not a NM book with tape. It's slightly overgraded and it's being blown out of proportion for the sake of doing so.

 

In a perfect world, it'd be great to see a partial refund given for a slight overgrade and be done with it, with heavy learning lessons around.

 

My apologies as I didn't read all the posts. I was speaking in general in response to Roy's statement about selling.

 

Ahh, no apologies needed. It seems like this situation with Gambit and J-person is an incredibly rare instance where there was buyers remorse, overgrading, tape, personal checks and attitude all coming together to make it messy.

 

After some reflection, this doesn't really change my selling policies. I only take Paypal. I require 3 days for payment. I ship next day. These are ways to avoid buyer's remorse on hype books because they generally have them in-hand while they are still hot. This unfortunate situation highlights the importance of payment deadlines for the buyer as well as shipping deadlines for the seller.

[N/A]

Tape should be disclosed even if it's "within grade"

[EC ed]

Unfortunate situation, yes, with many lessons (to be) learned from both sides. I sincerely hope the parties can reconcile this. Having said that, am I correct that we would agree that nothing in this scenario (at this point) is going to result in a nomination to the PL? If so, why don't we move this conversation over to the general discussion thread?

[mschmidt]

If a seller misses something then they did not sell me what they claimed. I don't believe in a no return policy. It shouldn't justify lazy sellers.

 

You don't have to accept a no return policy. You can just walk away from that seller and ignore it.

 

on the other hand, if you pull the trigger on a book that has no returns stated ahead of time though, then it's all on you because you agreed with those terms before pulling the trigger.

 

The only defense would be if the "no returns" was not clearly stated in this case.

 

Otherwise, it's just another case of people not taking accountability for their actions and wanted to have their cake and eat it too.

 

For what it's worth though, I agree with you in keeping customers happy.

 

 

So if a seller sells a book with undisclosed CT and doesn't accept returns, the buyer should take "accountability for their actions" and just eat the loss?

 

Stating "no returns accepted" in a listing doesn't magically absolve the seller from his responsibility to ensure that the buyer gets what they paid for.

[Dr. Balls]

 

 

really this is VG/F???

 

Not a VG/F

 

I think the tape and popped staple (still attached to bc?) make it a solid VG candidate. A nice presenting VG, but VG just the same.

[comix4fun]

Tape should be disclosed even if it's "within grade"

 

 

I do if I see it. I'm just having a hard time figuring out how much of the outrage is the grade and how much is the prologue.

[comix4fun]

 

 

really this is VG/F???

 

Not a VG/F

 

I think the tape and popped staple make it a solid VG candidate. A nice presenting VG, but VG just the same.

 

 

That's not a popped staple. He already said that. He said the cover is attached.

[Dr. Balls]

Unfortunate situation, yes, with many lessons (to be) learned from both sides. I sincerely hope the parties can reconcile this. Having said that, am I correct that we would agree that nothing in this scenario (at this point) is going to result in a nomination to the PL? If so, why don't we move this conversation over to the general discussion thread?

 

+1

[N/A]

If a seller misses something then they did not sell me what they claimed. I don't believe in a no return policy. It shouldn't justify lazy sellers.

 

I can't speak for Gambit, but this situation seems more about selling a $XXX book and while it's dropped in value, the buyer want's his original $XXX back, even though it's not worth $XXX, it's worth less.

 

The tape issues just seems to be a convenient noose to hang the seller with. Tape is not going to affect a VG grade, as it's part of the flaws within that grading criteria. Tape would not deter the sale of a VG graded book. It may discourage some buyers, but there would be plenty that could care less - so it's not like it's been completely devalued.

 

The seller got himself in a twist by selling books without scans and accidentaly overgrading the book by missing an inside flaw - which can happen to anyone, myself included. This is not a NM book with tape. It's slightly overgraded and it's being blown out of proportion for the sake of doing so.

 

In a perfect world, it'd be great to see a partial refund given for a slight overgrade and be done with it, with heavy learning lessons around.

 

My apologies as I didn't read all the posts. I was speaking in general in response to Roy's statement about selling.

 

Ahh, no apologies needed. It seems like this situation with Gambit and J-person is an incredibly rare instance where there was buyers remorse, overgrading, tape, personal checks and attitude all coming together to make it messy.

 

After some reflection, this doesn't really change my selling policies. I only take Paypal. I require 3 days for payment. I ship next day. These are ways to avoid buyer's remorse on hype books because they generally have them in-hand while they are still hot. This unfortunate situation highlights the importance of payment deadlines for the buyer as well as shipping deadlines for the seller.

 

I have always offered a no questions return policy although I will admit that I ask questions. I am genuinely interested in why they wish to return it. I consider buyer's remorse as the cost of dealing in the volatile modern market. I have always accepted returns and have had 4 in 10 years. I credit not trying to milk a comic for every last penny but that's just a theory.

[Dr. Balls]

 

That's not a popped staple. He already said that. He said the cover is attached.

 

Yeah, I fixed my post - it looks like it's still attached to the BC, you're just too damn fast with your quoting.

[revat]

Tape should be disclosed even if it's "within grade"

 

I agree. What if it wasn't tape, what if it was a VF comic with a small picture of genitals drawn on one of the inside pages? Oh its VG/F, the grade is right so we're square.