PROBATION DISCUSSIONS 21 21

[HarveySwick]

Don't sell on here if you don't know what you're selling.

 

I think that is the whole purpose of the Probation List - not just punishment, but to warn and protect potential buyers/sellers. If a seller is selling books with undisclosed color touch, trimming, married cover/pages or whatever type of resto - how could you prove whether they did or did not know it? You can't. So they really should be held to a higher standard and if a customer discovers resto, the seller SHOULD be held accountable - the buyer didn't get what they had paid for.

 

I can't see a time limit being put into place and working - people submit things to CGC at different points in time so the buyer shouldn't have the onus put on him to submit to CGC ASAP to protect himself. A buyer is relying on representations by a seller: this book isn't restored. When a buyer finds out at any point that the seller's representation is false, the seller SHOULD refund the buyer. He sold something he didn't have. If the seller doesn't, he belongs on the Probation List - not as punishment, but as a warning to other potential buyers in the future.

[CAHokie]

Don't sell on here if you don't know what you're selling.

 

I think that is the whole purpose of the Probation List - not just punishment, but to warn and protect potential buyers/sellers. If a seller is selling books with undisclosed color touch, trimming, married cover/pages or whatever type of resto - how could you prove whether they did or did not know it? You can't. So they really should be held to a higher standard and if a customer discovers resto, the seller SHOULD be held accountable - the buyer didn't get what they had paid for.

 

I can't see a time limit being put into place and working - people submit things to CGC at different points in time so the buyer shouldn't have the onus put on him to submit to CGC ASAP to protect himself. A buyer is relying on representations by a seller: this book isn't restored. When a buyer finds out at any point that the seller's representation is false, the seller SHOULD refund the buyer. He sold something he didn't have. If the seller doesn't, he belongs on the Probation List - not as punishment, but as a warning to other potential buyers in the future.

 

So you are ok with restoration reimbursement 5 years later? I feel sorry for the guy who sells a high end book and CGC says in 2020 there is trim, then decides there isnt trim, then says wait there is again. I wouldn't consider a year exactly ASAP though...

[HarveySwick]

I think it is worthy of a discussion and a possible Probation List consideration on a case by case basis.

[wombat]

I think it is worthy of a discussion and a possible Probation List consideration on a case by case basis.

 

Wouldn't it be more fair to establish a time limit up front? Things left to a "case by case" basis seem to have much more chance of bias.

[HarveySwick]

The simply answer (my opinion) is no on the up front time limit.

 

I just don't think you can foresee every possible future - so just deal with it as a community on a case by case basis. Just because someone is nominated or brought up in the Probation Discussion thread doesn't mean the are automatically added to the List. That's why we have these discussions.

[Sqeggs]

I second Jimbo's emotions. The amount of Rupp's claim clearly shows his acceptance of his "responsibility," and I would understand if he never deals with the seller again. My only issue has been whether this particular situation is (or should be) PL enforceable.

 

If so, then perhaps the next time the PL rules discussion gets queued up, we should throw a statute of limitations component into the mix...

 

I'm with Ed. This is a tough one, but I would say there should be a statute of limitations and I think a year is reasonable. So I would be inclined to say too much time has passed for this to be a PL case.

 

Again, if it were me, I would do what Rupp did in the case he described: Refund everything the buyer was out to make him or her as whole as possible, no matter how much time had gone by.

[jsilverjanet]

is there a reason some sellers are posting links to pics instead of pics in the thread?

 

 

[ChrisInBaltimore]

On the list

Off the list

Quickly run a few sales threads, make some deals.

When something goes wrong, take no responsibility and disappear.

There may not be a list for that, but I won't do business with him.

 

What was the guy on the list for before? I would think that puts him on thinner ice than most.

[KPR Comics]

is there a reason some sellers are posting links to pics instead of pics in the thread?

 

Or no back covers on four figure books?

[jimjum12]

Don't sell on here if you don't know what you're selling.

 

I think that is the whole purpose of the Probation List - not just punishment, but to warn and protect potential buyers/sellers. If a seller is selling books with undisclosed color touch, trimming, married cover/pages or whatever type of resto - how could you prove whether they did or did not know it? You can't. So they really should be held to a higher standard and if a customer discovers resto, the seller SHOULD be held accountable - the buyer didn't get what they had paid for.

 

I can't see a time limit being put into place and working - people submit things to CGC at different points in time so the buyer shouldn't have the onus put on him to submit to CGC ASAP to protect himself. A buyer is relying on representations by a seller: this book isn't restored. When a buyer finds out at any point that the seller's representation is false, the seller SHOULD refund the buyer. He sold something he didn't have. If the seller doesn't, he belongs on the Probation List - not as punishment, but as a warning to other potential buyers in the future.

 

So you are ok with restoration reimbursement 5 years later? I feel sorry for the guy who sells a high end book and CGC says in 2020 there is trim, then decides there isnt trim, then says wait there is again. I wouldn't consider a year exactly ASAP though...

 

...... all this starts to sound a lot like eBay...... where the buyer is always right. I'm going to set my return policy the way I choose. It will not be dictated to me. If someone is concerned about receiving a blue label then they should submit in a timely fashion. A year (....no offense to Rupp) is not timely. Not all buyers are going to be honest...... their honesty should not be a given. A seller should have some degree of protection against that. That's where the return policy comes in. Learn how to grade. Learn how to spot resto....if you can't or won't then buy the book already slabbed.Some of my buyers are going to slab.... I know them and trust them and will always be open to the extra mile if something goes south, but I'm not giving life time guarantees on anything..... and as long as I spell out my terms, I doubt there would be any legal recourse to make me do so...... nor should there be. Most books I see sold here are not guaranteed to be unrestored..... just people selling comics to other people. Simple. Usually at a nice discount for raw books. I don't think it's cool to put someone on the PL list if they sold an item and lived up to the terms in their thread. If someone must have an unrestored book they should make that understood in advance if it isn't guaranteed in the body of the sales thread. Any guarantees should be agreed upon and not assumed...... that's just smart buying. Hey, I wish I had thousands of dollars lying around at all times..... or that I could just give the books away..... but I'm not in that financial stratosphere. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

[crassus]

I agree with those who propose a time limit. I think one technical point to decide in advance is whether this will enclose Rupp's process, or not. I am assuming that changing the rules on this would not be a speedy process, and the rules as they stand, having no explicit time limit, do mean that when the 72hrs runs out Mikeggg goes on the list.

 

As for the broader point about the extent of seller responsibility, I do believe it must be limited, reasonably speaking, but I also believe that even in the absence of a specific policy any book sold is indeed assumed to be "blue" rather than "purple".

 

If I charge the going rate for an ASM 129 raw in 8.0 I am saying that I believe I am selling a blue book and not a plod. To me that is an implied condition of sale.

 

This is all the more significant given the terrible consequences of having a restored book, it is not only worth less, but it is harder to sell, it is in every sense a liability, and if you take the money for a blue book than you had better deliver one.

 

To me it would be like going to a grocery store to buy milk and having to ask every time if its fresh and fit to drink.

 

 

Edited June 7, 2015 by crassus

[N/A]

On the list

Off the list

Quickly run a few sales threads, make some deals.

When something goes wrong, take no responsibility and disappear.

There may not be a list for that, but I won't do business with him.

 

What was the guy on the list for before? I would think that puts him on thinner ice than most.

 

He was on the list for non-payment.

[N/A]

I am very surprised to see a discussion about a time limit when there was an agreed time limit in this thread some time ago. There was actually a refusal to add someone to the list because the transaction was more than 6 months prior. Strange.

 

I understand a seller having product knowledge, which is why I only sell moderns, but I also expect to have product knowledge as a buyer and from my buyers.

 

I bought an UXM 94 that CGC discovered had colour touch. I requested a refund for the book and walked them through who CGC was. Grading fees were on me. the seller claimed it was an OO book from his personal collection bought off the rack. Obviously a discrepancy.

 

Rupp's request is completely stand up and Mike, who can be very nervous, should quickly apologize and give the man his $60 but it is not PL worthy. What did the sales thread claim about the book? Assuming you are buying an unrestored book is just that, an assumption.

 

I really don't understand why every seller doesn't take returns for any reason and I deal with the volatile moderns market. A buyer having a book for a month s/b more than sufficient.

[PovertyRow]

There was actually a refusal to add someone to the list because the transaction was more than 6 months prior. Strange.

 

JD, any possibility you have a link to that? That's surprising. (Gawd hope I was not involved in the discussion!)

[jimjum12]

I agree with those who propose a time limit. I think one technical point to decide in advance is whether this will enclose Rupp's process, or not. I am assuming that changing the rules on this would not be a speedy process, and the rules as they stand, having no explicit time limit, do mean that when the 72hrs runs out Mikeggg goes on the list.

 

As for the broader point about the extent of seller responsibility, I do believe it must be limited, reasonably speaking, but I also believe that even in the absence of a specific policy any book sold is indeed assumed to be "blue" rather than "purple".

 

If I charge the going rate for an ASM 129 raw in 8.0 I am saying that I believe I am selling a blue book and not a plod. To me that is an implied condition of sale.

 

This is all the more significant given the terrible consequences of having a restored book, it is not only worth less, but it is harder to sell, it is in every sense a liability, and if you take the money for a blue book than you had better deliver one.

 

To me it would be like going to a grocery store to buy milk and having to ask every time if its fresh and fit to drink.

 

 

...... assuming something not stated is a bad idea. By assuming this or trying to make it so, you are forcing someone to basically give the lifetime guarantee. This should always be left up to the individual seller. It's not a seller's responsibility to concern themselves with what someone else's endgame is, unless this is agreed upon in advance. A lot of people still just collect comics.... it's not all about what they can get for the book in the future. You have a specific time frame to decide whether you/I want to keep a book at a given price...... it's not that complicated. After that time, the book is yours/mine. End of story. If someone is not comfortable making their own decisions in regards to raw books, buy slabbed. That's what I do, when buying OR selling. For me, I would consider it unethical to try to receive a full refund months or years after my return window had closed. I'm a grown up..... I make my decisions and then I live by them. I don't try to go back on an agreement after the fact because I don't feel "whole" anymore. I don't understand what's so complicated about that...... maybe to some, "winning" is the end all. I just collect comics. I win some, I lose some.....it's all in the game. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

..... and I don't mean to insinuate that you don't love comics, because I know you do, my friend......

[N/A]

There was actually a refusal to add someone to the list because the transaction was more than 6 months prior. Strange.

 

JD, any possibility you have a link to that? That's surprising. (Gawd hope I was not involved in the discussion!)

 

It would certainly leave egg on your face if you were.

 

It seems like yesterday but time flies faster the older I get. It may have happened before the changing of the guard from Divad to yourself so most boardies posting in this thread now would not have been involved.

 

If you wanted to make it official then perhaps a vote? If Rupp had demanded a full refund after such a long time I would hope the answer in this thread would be a resounding

[CAHokie]

There was actually a refusal to add someone to the list because the transaction was more than 6 months prior. Strange.

 

JD, any possibility you have a link to that? That's surprising. (Gawd hope I was not involved in the discussion!)

 

You were....

 

 

For the life of me I can't figure out this discussion. I find this lifetime guarantee that some are proposing one of craziest arguments discussed in this thread and so contrary to other discussions in this very thread. A seller know has to worry about the buyer's plans and adjust accordingly? As far as judging them on a case by case basis, I don't know how that can be done unless we are simply taking into account how well we like the parties involved. Either discovering resto five years later is ok for a refund or it is not.

[InvstmntComcSuply]

the batman 19 i put it in the grading forum I think it is 4.5 or so. no resto.

[N/A]

Alrighty. There you go. Claim was made. Now it's just the timeline.

[InvstmntComcSuply]

What did the sales thread claim about the book? Assuming you are buying an unrestored book is just that, an assumption.

 

I disagree.

Raw books are always implied to be unrestored, unless otherwise mentioned by the seller.