PROBATION DISCUSSIONS 21 21

[bababooey]

Stupid question: Wouldn't SpiderDan have been able to see the stain before he submitted the book to CGC?

The stain is so light I didn't notice it.

[Iceman399]

So ... I would say:

 

1. I don't think the buyer should be put on the PL. I follow the PL thread only intermittently, but I don't know of another case where a seller has been allowed to put a buyer on the PL when there has been this much doubt and ambiguity.

 

2. If we put someone like the buyer on the PL because of a case like this doesn't it undermine the credibility of the PL? Isn't the PL meant to be a "steer clear of" list for buyers and sellers? Would anyone feel they needed to steer clear of this buyer because of this episode?

 

3. Essentially, this is a case of a buyer wanting to return a book that was materially misrepresented by the seller. (I realize that the book wasn't sent and the money wasn't paid, but basically this amounts to a case of an attempted return.). The misrepresentation by the seller was inadvertent, but an 8.0 without a stain (which is what the seller claimed he was selling) is a significantly different book than an 8.0 with a stain that (according to CGC) goes through the whole book.

 

I don't think there is much doubt that if this were an eBay/PayPal transaction, the seller would be obliged to take the book back and refund the buyer's money. I realize we are not operating under those rules, but do we really want buyers to have no protections and insist that all sales are on an "as is" basis?

 

I don't want to see Bob put on the PL list. I would rather Dan and him try and work something out to their benefits.

 

However he backed out of an unconditional on something that was found out after he put up the sign. If I buy a book and get it in hands decide get the graders notes and it mentions that there was pen mark on the inside cover I can return the book for a full refund and get my money back? What about cgc used a fat case instead of the skinny case (has happened to books that are either or)? The label notation doesn't have X art in the notes?

 

Very slippery slope there.

[Iceman399]

 

1. Don't sell comics before you have them in hand and can inspect them to answer any questions.

 

Good luck with this one. Especially when it comes guys making steam on the hot modern comics or the next movie rumor. As Dan mentioned he tried to time the sale to maximize what he was getting for his book (just like the modern guys). They want to be first to market to maximize the peak, as the deal went on and GPA dropped and had he waited he lost out on potential money. This happens all the time with Con goers as well as someone selling the "next book".

 

Batman adventures 12 skyrocketed late last year with copies trending up to $1000, now you can easily pick the same copy up for $700, those guys that sold on route to them did better as their were few copies on the market and the demand was highest.

 

Beachbum and others often sell convention exclusives and offer 9.8 fast track etc the day they get to the con.

 

Personally I don't pre sell as I don't have the same access as others but just like any business connections and the ability to do so often yield $$$.

 

**edit** This can also be applied to such things as SS opps or commission pieces, hey the sig is slightly tilted I don't want it, the green is too dark on the character. Now we would expect these guys to stand in line get books signed and hope they don't get stuck holding books because of silly reasons they are allowed to back out of?

This is why I wouldn't agree with adding it to the rules.

 

While I do agree that all 8.0's are not created equally and it's easy to tell some are much nicer than others with wraps, PQ, presentability. But, I think it's pretty safe to assume a modern 9.8 is a modern 9.8. They're always white pages and miswraps seem a thing of the past.

 

It really comes down to Bob's unconditional . If he was a picky collector he should have taken it pending scans. In that case I would normally side with the seller.

 

But I can't look past "I don't think it's a stain".

 

I think something like this isn't the norm necessitating an addition to the rules.

 

Doesn't have to be a modern, I have been looking for 2 copper books and the miswraps or white spines have been the reason I won't pull the trigger on them. Think of ASM 129, believe you were looking for a well wrapped book. If tomorrow they announced that there was going to be a new ASM vs Punisher movie do you think ppl would be selling books before they had them in hand? Absolutely there would be a mad rush on them and as soon as they had grades from cgc up go a few pre sub pics and the cgc grade.

 

I agreed with you.

 

I was saying that the rule would apply to everything (incl. CA) but Moderns. I think Moderns are the only place that all 9.8's are the same!

 

They aren't I have personally not purchased a few moderns because CGC gave it a 9.8 with a colour breaking spine tick.

[GIJOEISAWESOME-migration]

Stupid question: Wouldn't SpiderDan have been able to see the stain before he submitted the book to CGC?

The stain is so light I didn't notice it.

 

OK, thanks.

[Hado]

But I can't look past "I don't think it's a stain".

When the question was raised in the FS thread, "could that be a stain?", other potential buyers have said they now thought a stain was possible, regardless of the sellers response.

So that puts the onus on the buyer to negotiate an out if that possibility arises.

 

Unfortunately I'm too tired to go through Speedy's locked thread and find out how many people wrote "new people don't understand how seriously we take the Takeit guy"

 

Value of the transaction or boardmember status shouldn't be a factor.

[Ryan.]

Good rules of thumb:

 

1. Don't sell comics before you have them in hand and can inspect them to answer any questions.

 

2. If you don't know the answer to a question about the condition of a comic, don't guess. From what I've been told, legally speaking, saying "I think" does not absolve you from having set an expectation about the condition of the comic in the buyer's mind.

 

3. If you agree to a deal, don't try to change it. If you agreed to a trade plus cash, it's not cool to switch it up, especially if doing so means less for the other party.

 

4. If you're a "picky collector" who will back out of a deal for a graded comic because of something like graders' notes to which you do not yet have access, don't put up an unconditional . Stipulate that it's dependent on graders' notes, or a final inspection of the comic, or whatever. (This would be mitigated to a decent extent if the seller were following the first point.)

 

5. If, after a few attempts to alter a deal for whatever reason, you cancel it for yet another reason, you're going to look a little fishy. As many have said, Bob was probably not being fishy. He probably really did have too much time to ponder his deal and thereby made himself regret it, but nonetheless, that set him up to look like less than a straight shooter when, in the end, he backed out on account of the graders' notes.

Great points to take away from this whole mess.

 

I think we should change the selling guidelines to include them!

 

Having obviously not learned my lesson about the pitfalls of trying to be helpful (poor me!!), I'd be down for #1 to be a rule. When I first got here, people talked about it a lot and I thought it was a rule. But then I could never actually find where it was written down.

 

That's a rule I will support.

 

Even for CGC books? No thanks.

 

You've never been burned by selling books before you had them in hand?

[GIJOEISAWESOME-migration]

I would like to state, most of us have our pet peeves. I won't take any comics with makes beans or mustard on them (that's not a joke, I once had the opportunity to buy an Xmen 1 with mustard stains on it) Stains were bob's pet peeve.

 

 

Now, I will take comics with date stamps, names, or weird written flaws (thumbs u

[Jeffro.]

 

I guess the pointed question is, do you plan on pursuing the PL route or if did you air this out to gauge the boards sentiment?

 

Clearly Bob has no intention of completing the transaction and you seem to be sticking to your guns.

 

 

 

 

Whoomp there it is

 

 

 

I'm sorry that 90's catch phrase was already used tonight.

 

You may choose an alternative from the following:

 

BAM!

 

SHAMA-LAMA-DING-DONG!!

 

BOOM GOES THE DYNAMITE!!

 

BOOM-SHAKA-LAKA!!!

 

GAMEDAY BUCKET GO BOOM!!

 

 

The next time I sell here I'm going to require all buyers to post BOOM-SHAKA-LAKA!!! along with the

[Spider-Dan]

Stupid question: Wouldn't SpiderDan have been able to see the stain before he submitted the book to CGC?

The stain is so light I didn't notice it.

 

OK, thanks.

 

This must be how one gets their post count to 2700 in 6 months

[GIJOEISAWESOME-migration]

Stupid question: Wouldn't SpiderDan have been able to see the stain before he submitted the book to CGC?

The stain is so light I didn't notice it.

 

OK, thanks.

 

This must be how one gets their post count to 2700 in 6 months

 

Hey bro, read my posts! At least 20% are coherent!

[Spider-Dan]

Stupid question: Wouldn't SpiderDan have been able to see the stain before he submitted the book to CGC?

The stain is so light I didn't notice it.

 

OK, thanks.

 

This must be how one gets their post count to 2700 in 6 months

 

Hey bro, read my posts! At least 20% are coherent!

 

[Jeffro.]

whew! Having just read the whole thing, it sounds like an unfortunate situation for both sides. I think I have a pretty good understanding of how both Dan and Bob feel. This is one of those gray area transactions and I think both parties should just walk away and call it a day.

 

This situation should serve as an object lesson for some of the pitfalls of simply buying a comic based solely on that big number in the upper left corner and selling before having the book in hand.

Edited January 29, 2014 by Jeffro

[DR.X]

whew! Having just read the whole thing, it sounds like an unfortunate situation for both sides. I think I have a pretty good understanding of how both Dan and Bob feel. This in one of those gray area transactions and I think both parties should just walk away and call it a day.

 

This situation should serve as an object lesson for some of the pitfalls of simply buying a comic based solely on that big number in the upper left corner.

 

+1

 

[comix4fun]

But I can't look past "I don't think it's a stain".

When the question was raised in the FS thread, "could that be a stain?", other potential buyers have said they now thought a stain was possible, regardless of the sellers response.

So that puts the onus on the buyer to negotiate an out if that possibility arises.

 

Unfortunately I'm too tired to go through Speedy's locked thread and find out how many people wrote "new people don't understand how seriously we take the Takeit guy"

 

Value of the transaction or boardmember status shouldn't be a factor.

 

 

 

Two things that stick out to me:

 

1) The owner and seller is in the best possible position to give an opinion on whether something like this is a stain. He owns the books, held the book, took pictures, and offered his opinion. If he doesn't know he shouldn't give an opinion on something that could very well sway a buyer into agreeing to buy.

 

2) Once an owner makes a statement of opinion that could work in his favor to push a sale forward, he MUST stand behind that statement. Thus, if it turns out to be incorrect or false (regardless of intent), he must realize that his opinion had a hand in creating the agreement for sale and, now that the opinion has been proven false, one of the underpinnings of the original agreement has been destroyed.

 

Once self-serving opinions by the seller get thrown into the mix the onus lands squarely on the seller if those opinions as to a material defect are later proven false.

[Balham's Finest]

But I can't look past "I don't think it's a stain".

When the question was raised in the FS thread, "could that be a stain?", other potential buyers have said they now thought a stain was possible, regardless of the sellers response.

So that puts the onus on the buyer to negotiate an out if that possibility arises.

 

Unfortunately I'm too tired to go through Speedy's locked thread and find out how many people wrote "new people don't understand how seriously we take the Takeit guy"

 

Value of the transaction or boardmember status shouldn't be a factor.

 

 

 

Two things that stick out to me:

 

1) The owner and seller is in the best possible position to give an opinion on whether something like this is a stain. He owns the books, held the book, took pictures, and offered his opinion. If he doesn't know he shouldn't give an opinion on something that could very well sway a buyer into agreeing to buy.

 

2) Once an owner makes a statement of opinion that could work in his favor to push a sale forward, he MUST stand behind that statement. Thus, if it turns out to be incorrect or false (regardless of intent), he must realize that his opinion had a hand in creating the agreement for sale and, now that the opinion has been proven false, one of the underpinnings of the original agreement has been destroyed.

 

Once self-serving opinions by the seller get thrown into the mix the onus lands squarely on the seller if those opinions as to a material defect are later proven false.

 

I don't know. Do you see a difference between:

 

1) I don't think it's a stain; and

 

2) I don't think it's a stain, but I can't be sure?

 

 

[Jeffro.]

 

Once self-serving opinions by the seller get thrown into the mix the onus lands squarely on the seller if those opinions as to a material defect are later proven false.

 

Agreed. The defect that later was confirmed as a stain by the graders notes is the central issue here.

 

That's why I think putting Bob on the PL is not warranted. Both parties just walk away and hopefully some lessons can be learned from this event.

Edited January 29, 2014 by Jeffro

[HarveySwick]

whew! Having just read the whole thing, it sounds like an unfortunate situation for both sides. I think I have a pretty good understanding of how both Dan and Bob feel. This is one of those gray area transactions and I think both parties should just walk away and call it a day.

 

This situation should serve as an object lesson for some of the pitfalls of simply buying a comic based solely on that big number in the upper left corner and selling before having the book in hand.

Perfect analysis. (thumbs u

 

So, Dan and Bob, what do we do now?

[bababooey]

But I can't look past "I don't think it's a stain".

When the question was raised in the FS thread, "could that be a stain?", other potential buyers have said they now thought a stain was possible, regardless of the sellers response.

So that puts the onus on the buyer to negotiate an out if that possibility arises.

 

Unfortunately I'm too tired to go through Speedy's locked thread and find out how many people wrote "new people don't understand how seriously we take the Takeit guy"

 

Value of the transaction or boardmember status shouldn't be a factor.

 

 

 

Two things that stick out to me:

 

1) The owner and seller is in the best possible position to give an opinion on whether something like this is a stain. He owns the books, held the book, took pictures, and offered his opinion. If he doesn't know he shouldn't give an opinion on something that could very well sway a buyer into agreeing to buy.

 

2) Once an owner makes a statement of opinion that could work in his favor to push a sale forward, he MUST stand behind that statement. Thus, if it turns out to be incorrect or false (regardless of intent), he must realize that his opinion had a hand in creating the agreement for sale and, now that the opinion has been proven false, one of the underpinnings of the original agreement has been destroyed.

 

Once self-serving opinions by the seller get thrown into the mix the onus lands squarely on the seller if those opinions as to a material defect are later proven false.

 

I don't know. Do you see a difference between:

 

1) I don't think it's a stain; and

 

2) I don't think it's a stain, but I can't be sure?

 

The PGM thread (linked in the sales OP) from a week prior to the sale was more specific.

[GIJOEISAWESOME-migration]

But I can't look past "I don't think it's a stain".

When the question was raised in the FS thread, "could that be a stain?", other potential buyers have said they now thought a stain was possible, regardless of the sellers response.

So that puts the onus on the buyer to negotiate an out if that possibility arises.

 

Unfortunately I'm too tired to go through Speedy's locked thread and find out how many people wrote "new people don't understand how seriously we take the Takeit guy"

 

Value of the transaction or boardmember status shouldn't be a factor.

 

 

 

Two things that stick out to me:

 

1) The owner and seller is in the best possible position to give an opinion on whether something like this is a stain. He owns the books, held the book, took pictures, and offered his opinion. If he doesn't know he shouldn't give an opinion on something that could very well sway a buyer into agreeing to buy.

 

2) Once an owner makes a statement of opinion that could work in his favor to push a sale forward, he MUST stand behind that statement. Thus, if it turns out to be incorrect or false (regardless of intent), he must realize that his opinion had a hand in creating the agreement for sale and, now that the opinion has been proven false, one of the underpinnings of the original agreement has been destroyed.

 

Once self-serving opinions by the seller get thrown into the mix the onus lands squarely on the seller if those opinions as to a material defect are later proven false.

 

I don't know. Do you see a difference between:

 

1) I don't think it's a stain; and

 

2) I don't think it's a stain, but I can't be sure?

 

The PGM thread (linked in the sales OP) from a week prior to the sale was more specific.

 

In fairness, Dan, you did say "No moisture stains any where on it"

 

That is different from "I don't think it's a stain."

[comix4fun]

But I can't look past "I don't think it's a stain".

When the question was raised in the FS thread, "could that be a stain?", other potential buyers have said they now thought a stain was possible, regardless of the sellers response.

So that puts the onus on the buyer to negotiate an out if that possibility arises.

 

Unfortunately I'm too tired to go through Speedy's locked thread and find out how many people wrote "new people don't understand how seriously we take the Takeit guy"

 

Value of the transaction or boardmember status shouldn't be a factor.

 

 

 

Two things that stick out to me:

 

1) The owner and seller is in the best possible position to give an opinion on whether something like this is a stain. He owns the books, held the book, took pictures, and offered his opinion. If he doesn't know he shouldn't give an opinion on something that could very well sway a buyer into agreeing to buy.

 

2) Once an owner makes a statement of opinion that could work in his favor to push a sale forward, he MUST stand behind that statement. Thus, if it turns out to be incorrect or false (regardless of intent), he must realize that his opinion had a hand in creating the agreement for sale and, now that the opinion has been proven false, one of the underpinnings of the original agreement has been destroyed.

 

Once self-serving opinions by the seller get thrown into the mix the onus lands squarely on the seller if those opinions as to a material defect are later proven false.

 

I don't know. Do you see a difference between:

 

1) I don't think it's a stain; and

 

2) I don't think it's a stain, but I can't be sure?

 

 

If Dan wasn't sure he should have never said anything. Once he said it he's got to own it all the way down the line if it turns out to be wrong. He'd want the same as a buyer, any of us would.

 

I see a similarity...neither should be forwarded in the sale of a 5 figure book if you aren't prepared as a seller to stand behind that statement when it turns out to be wrong.

 

It's called inducement and, regardless of qualifiers.

 

 

Bottom line for me, I would be 100% with Dan on this one without that opinion of it not being a stain having been made prior to agreement and sale. Once that happens he's got to back it up whether shown to be true or false.

 

I can't, in good conscience, side with Dan for taking a hard line stance to hold Bob, word for word, to what he said in making the deal and then (in the same breath) fault Bob for taking a hard line stance to hold Dan, word for word, to what he said in making the deal including the statements about the stain not being one.