PROBATION DISCUSSIONS 21 21

[Spider-Dan]

whew! Having just read the whole thing, it sounds like an unfortunate situation for both sides. I think I have a pretty good understanding of how both Dan and Bob feel. This is one of those gray area transactions and I think both parties should just walk away and call it a day.

 

This situation should serve as an object lesson for some of the pitfalls of simply buying a comic based solely on that big number in the upper left corner and selling before having the book in hand.

Perfect analysis. (thumbs u

 

So, Dan and Bob, what do we do now?

 

Bob extended the olive branch and opened up PM's

 

I am waiting to hear back

[comix4fun]

But I can't look past "I don't think it's a stain".

When the question was raised in the FS thread, "could that be a stain?", other potential buyers have said they now thought a stain was possible, regardless of the sellers response.

So that puts the onus on the buyer to negotiate an out if that possibility arises.

 

Unfortunately I'm too tired to go through Speedy's locked thread and find out how many people wrote "new people don't understand how seriously we take the Takeit guy"

 

Value of the transaction or boardmember status shouldn't be a factor.

 

 

 

Two things that stick out to me:

 

1) The owner and seller is in the best possible position to give an opinion on whether something like this is a stain. He owns the books, held the book, took pictures, and offered his opinion. If he doesn't know he shouldn't give an opinion on something that could very well sway a buyer into agreeing to buy.

 

2) Once an owner makes a statement of opinion that could work in his favor to push a sale forward, he MUST stand behind that statement. Thus, if it turns out to be incorrect or false (regardless of intent), he must realize that his opinion had a hand in creating the agreement for sale and, now that the opinion has been proven false, one of the underpinnings of the original agreement has been destroyed.

 

Once self-serving opinions by the seller get thrown into the mix the onus lands squarely on the seller if those opinions as to a material defect are later proven false.

 

I don't know. Do you see a difference between:

 

1) I don't think it's a stain; and

 

2) I don't think it's a stain, but I can't be sure?

 

The PGM thread (linked in the sales OP) from a week prior to the sale was more specific.

 

 

 

Oh my, you're right:

 

 

Is that a moisture stain on the lower back cover corner near the spine? If not, this looks like an 8.0. If it is, 7.0?

 

No moisture stains anywhere on it.

 

Thanks (thumbs u

[Spider-Dan]

But I can't look past "I don't think it's a stain".

When the question was raised in the FS thread, "could that be a stain?", other potential buyers have said they now thought a stain was possible, regardless of the sellers response.

So that puts the onus on the buyer to negotiate an out if that possibility arises.

 

Unfortunately I'm too tired to go through Speedy's locked thread and find out how many people wrote "new people don't understand how seriously we take the Takeit guy"

 

Value of the transaction or boardmember status shouldn't be a factor.

 

 

 

Two things that stick out to me:

 

1) The owner and seller is in the best possible position to give an opinion on whether something like this is a stain. He owns the books, held the book, took pictures, and offered his opinion. If he doesn't know he shouldn't give an opinion on something that could very well sway a buyer into agreeing to buy.

 

2) Once an owner makes a statement of opinion that could work in his favor to push a sale forward, he MUST stand behind that statement. Thus, if it turns out to be incorrect or false (regardless of intent), he must realize that his opinion had a hand in creating the agreement for sale and, now that the opinion has been proven false, one of the underpinnings of the original agreement has been destroyed.

 

Once self-serving opinions by the seller get thrown into the mix the onus lands squarely on the seller if those opinions as to a material defect are later proven false.

 

I don't know. Do you see a difference between:

 

1) I don't think it's a stain; and

 

2) I don't think it's a stain, but I can't be sure?

 

The PGM thread (linked in the sales OP) from a week prior to the sale was more specific.

 

In fairness, Dan, you did say "No moisture stains any where on it"

 

That is different from "I don't think it's a stain."

 

Going to back 30 pages... I DID NOT see the stain when I had the book in hand!

 

When the book went up for sale and I was questioned again, all I had were pics to look at, so I answered the best I could. I still don't think its "moisture" damage

[GIJOEISAWESOME-migration]

But I can't look past "I don't think it's a stain".

When the question was raised in the FS thread, "could that be a stain?", other potential buyers have said they now thought a stain was possible, regardless of the sellers response.

So that puts the onus on the buyer to negotiate an out if that possibility arises.

 

Unfortunately I'm too tired to go through Speedy's locked thread and find out how many people wrote "new people don't understand how seriously we take the Takeit guy"

 

Value of the transaction or boardmember status shouldn't be a factor.

 

 

 

Two things that stick out to me:

 

1) The owner and seller is in the best possible position to give an opinion on whether something like this is a stain. He owns the books, held the book, took pictures, and offered his opinion. If he doesn't know he shouldn't give an opinion on something that could very well sway a buyer into agreeing to buy.

 

2) Once an owner makes a statement of opinion that could work in his favor to push a sale forward, he MUST stand behind that statement. Thus, if it turns out to be incorrect or false (regardless of intent), he must realize that his opinion had a hand in creating the agreement for sale and, now that the opinion has been proven false, one of the underpinnings of the original agreement has been destroyed.

 

Once self-serving opinions by the seller get thrown into the mix the onus lands squarely on the seller if those opinions as to a material defect are later proven false.

 

I don't know. Do you see a difference between:

 

1) I don't think it's a stain; and

 

2) I don't think it's a stain, but I can't be sure?

 

The PGM thread (linked in the sales OP) from a week prior to the sale was more specific.

 

 

 

Oh my you're right:

 

 

Is that a moisture stain on the lower back cover corner near the spine? If not, this looks like an 8.0. If it is, 7.0?

 

No moisture stains anywhere on it.

 

Thanks (thumbs u

 

Even if this isn't in your sales thread, you posted a link to the PGM forum in your thread where you CLEARLY STATED that there were NO MOISTURE STAINS ANYWHERE ON IT.

 

 

This would have led any buyer to believe YOUR EXACT STATEMENT. I'm sorry, you must stick by that statement or expect Bob to either re adjust the trade, or cancel it altogether

[GIJOEISAWESOME-migration]

But I can't look past "I don't think it's a stain".

When the question was raised in the FS thread, "could that be a stain?", other potential buyers have said they now thought a stain was possible, regardless of the sellers response.

So that puts the onus on the buyer to negotiate an out if that possibility arises.

 

Unfortunately I'm too tired to go through Speedy's locked thread and find out how many people wrote "new people don't understand how seriously we take the Takeit guy"

 

Value of the transaction or boardmember status shouldn't be a factor.

 

 

 

Two things that stick out to me:

 

1) The owner and seller is in the best possible position to give an opinion on whether something like this is a stain. He owns the books, held the book, took pictures, and offered his opinion. If he doesn't know he shouldn't give an opinion on something that could very well sway a buyer into agreeing to buy.

 

2) Once an owner makes a statement of opinion that could work in his favor to push a sale forward, he MUST stand behind that statement. Thus, if it turns out to be incorrect or false (regardless of intent), he must realize that his opinion had a hand in creating the agreement for sale and, now that the opinion has been proven false, one of the underpinnings of the original agreement has been destroyed.

 

Once self-serving opinions by the seller get thrown into the mix the onus lands squarely on the seller if those opinions as to a material defect are later proven false.

 

I don't know. Do you see a difference between:

 

1) I don't think it's a stain; and

 

2) I don't think it's a stain, but I can't be sure?

 

The PGM thread (linked in the sales OP) from a week prior to the sale was more specific.

 

In fairness, Dan, you did say "No moisture stains any where on it"

 

That is different from "I don't think it's a stain."

 

Going to back 30 pages... I DID NOT see the stain when I had the book in hand!

 

When the book went up for sale and I was questioned again, all I had were pics to look at, so I answered the best I could. I still don't think its "moisture" damage

 

Regardless of whether you saw the stain or not, the stain WAS present, and you said it was not there. You did not say "I think" you said "There is no moisture stains anywhere on it"

 

 

You were wrong on that fact, be it accidental, and you must stand by that statement and its consequences

[Balham's Finest]

But I can't look past "I don't think it's a stain".

When the question was raised in the FS thread, "could that be a stain?", other potential buyers have said they now thought a stain was possible, regardless of the sellers response.

So that puts the onus on the buyer to negotiate an out if that possibility arises.

 

Unfortunately I'm too tired to go through Speedy's locked thread and find out how many people wrote "new people don't understand how seriously we take the Takeit guy"

 

Value of the transaction or boardmember status shouldn't be a factor.

 

 

 

Two things that stick out to me:

 

1) The owner and seller is in the best possible position to give an opinion on whether something like this is a stain. He owns the books, held the book, took pictures, and offered his opinion. If he doesn't know he shouldn't give an opinion on something that could very well sway a buyer into agreeing to buy.

 

2) Once an owner makes a statement of opinion that could work in his favor to push a sale forward, he MUST stand behind that statement. Thus, if it turns out to be incorrect or false (regardless of intent), he must realize that his opinion had a hand in creating the agreement for sale and, now that the opinion has been proven false, one of the underpinnings of the original agreement has been destroyed.

 

Once self-serving opinions by the seller get thrown into the mix the onus lands squarely on the seller if those opinions as to a material defect are later proven false.

 

I don't know. Do you see a difference between:

 

1) I don't think it's a stain; and

 

2) I don't think it's a stain, but I can't be sure?

 

 

If Dan wasn't sure he should have never said anything. Once he said it he's got to own it all the way down the line if it turns out to be wrong. He'd want the same as a buyer, any of us would.

 

I see a similarity...neither should be forwarded in the sale of a 5 figure book if you aren't prepared as a seller to stand behind that statement when it turns out to be wrong.

 

It's called inducement and, regardless of qualifiers.

 

 

Bottom line for me, I would be 100% with Dan on this one without that opinion of it not being a stain having been made prior to agreement and sale. Once that happens he's got to back it up whether shown to be true or false.

 

I can't, in good conscience, side with Dan for taking a hard line stance to hold Bob, word for word, to what he said in making the deal and then (in the same breath) fault Bob for taking a hard line stance to hold Dan, word for word, to what he said in making the deal including the statements about the stain not being one.

 

 

 

 

I should have been more clear: I was thinking about this in the general context of a seller owning what they say, not in relation to this Dan/Bob matter.

 

In my view, if the facts were the same apart from the statement on the stain being as set out in 2), then a buyer shouldn't be able to withdraw in the event there's a stain.

 

I don't agree that you have to own every single statement of opinion all the way - it depends on exactly what you say. Otherwise you leave a seller in an impossible position - if they are asked a question and they are not absolutely 100% sure of the answer, they're supposed to just not even express an opinion?

[GIJOEISAWESOME-migration]

But I can't look past "I don't think it's a stain".

When the question was raised in the FS thread, "could that be a stain?", other potential buyers have said they now thought a stain was possible, regardless of the sellers response.

So that puts the onus on the buyer to negotiate an out if that possibility arises.

 

Unfortunately I'm too tired to go through Speedy's locked thread and find out how many people wrote "new people don't understand how seriously we take the Takeit guy"

 

Value of the transaction or boardmember status shouldn't be a factor.

 

 

 

Two things that stick out to me:

 

1) The owner and seller is in the best possible position to give an opinion on whether something like this is a stain. He owns the books, held the book, took pictures, and offered his opinion. If he doesn't know he shouldn't give an opinion on something that could very well sway a buyer into agreeing to buy.

 

2) Once an owner makes a statement of opinion that could work in his favor to push a sale forward, he MUST stand behind that statement. Thus, if it turns out to be incorrect or false (regardless of intent), he must realize that his opinion had a hand in creating the agreement for sale and, now that the opinion has been proven false, one of the underpinnings of the original agreement has been destroyed.

 

Once self-serving opinions by the seller get thrown into the mix the onus lands squarely on the seller if those opinions as to a material defect are later proven false.

 

I don't know. Do you see a difference between:

 

1) I don't think it's a stain; and

 

2) I don't think it's a stain, but I can't be sure?

 

 

If Dan wasn't sure he should have never said anything. Once he said it he's got to own it all the way down the line if it turns out to be wrong. He'd want the same as a buyer, any of us would.

 

I see a similarity...neither should be forwarded in the sale of a 5 figure book if you aren't prepared as a seller to stand behind that statement when it turns out to be wrong.

 

It's called inducement and, regardless of qualifiers.

 

 

Bottom line for me, I would be 100% with Dan on this one without that opinion of it not being a stain having been made prior to agreement and sale. Once that happens he's got to back it up whether shown to be true or false.

 

I can't, in good conscience, side with Dan for taking a hard line stance to hold Bob, word for word, to what he said in making the deal and then (in the same breath) fault Bob for taking a hard line stance to hold Dan, word for word, to what he said in making the deal including the statements about the stain not being one.

 

 

 

 

I should have been more clear: I was thinking about this in the general context of a seller owning what they say, not in relation to this Dan/Bob matter.

 

In my view, if the facts were the same apart from the statement on the stain being as set out in 2), then a buyer shouldn't be able to withdraw in the event there's a stain.

 

I don't agree that you have to own every single statement of opinion all the way - it depends on exactly what you say. Otherwise you leave a seller in an impossible position - if they are asked a question and they are not absolutely 100% sure of the answer, they're supposed to just not even express an opinion?

 

What Dan said the second time was an opinion. He stated the first one as fact. That is why books should not be sold that are not in the hand of the seller so he can check them and verify the questions as fact.

[Balham's Finest]

But I can't look past "I don't think it's a stain".

When the question was raised in the FS thread, "could that be a stain?", other potential buyers have said they now thought a stain was possible, regardless of the sellers response.

So that puts the onus on the buyer to negotiate an out if that possibility arises.

 

Unfortunately I'm too tired to go through Speedy's locked thread and find out how many people wrote "new people don't understand how seriously we take the Takeit guy"

 

Value of the transaction or boardmember status shouldn't be a factor.

 

 

 

Two things that stick out to me:

 

1) The owner and seller is in the best possible position to give an opinion on whether something like this is a stain. He owns the books, held the book, took pictures, and offered his opinion. If he doesn't know he shouldn't give an opinion on something that could very well sway a buyer into agreeing to buy.

 

2) Once an owner makes a statement of opinion that could work in his favor to push a sale forward, he MUST stand behind that statement. Thus, if it turns out to be incorrect or false (regardless of intent), he must realize that his opinion had a hand in creating the agreement for sale and, now that the opinion has been proven false, one of the underpinnings of the original agreement has been destroyed.

 

Once self-serving opinions by the seller get thrown into the mix the onus lands squarely on the seller if those opinions as to a material defect are later proven false.

 

I don't know. Do you see a difference between:

 

1) I don't think it's a stain; and

 

2) I don't think it's a stain, but I can't be sure?

 

The PGM thread (linked in the sales OP) from a week prior to the sale was more specific.

 

In fairness, Dan, you did say "No moisture stains any where on it"

 

That is different from "I don't think it's a stain."

 

Going to back 30 pages... I DID NOT see the stain when I had the book in hand!

 

When the book went up for sale and I was questioned again, all I had were pics to look at, so I answered the best I could. I still don't think its "moisture" damage

 

Regardless of whether you saw the stain or not, the stain WAS present, and you said it was not there. You did not say "I think" you said "There is no moisture stains anywhere on it"

 

 

You were wrong on that fact, be it accidental, and you must stand by that statement and its consequences

 

In fairness, that was in the PGM, not the sales thread though.

[comix4fun]

But I can't look past "I don't think it's a stain".

When the question was raised in the FS thread, "could that be a stain?", other potential buyers have said they now thought a stain was possible, regardless of the sellers response.

So that puts the onus on the buyer to negotiate an out if that possibility arises.

 

Unfortunately I'm too tired to go through Speedy's locked thread and find out how many people wrote "new people don't understand how seriously we take the Takeit guy"

 

Value of the transaction or boardmember status shouldn't be a factor.

 

 

 

Two things that stick out to me:

 

1) The owner and seller is in the best possible position to give an opinion on whether something like this is a stain. He owns the books, held the book, took pictures, and offered his opinion. If he doesn't know he shouldn't give an opinion on something that could very well sway a buyer into agreeing to buy.

 

2) Once an owner makes a statement of opinion that could work in his favor to push a sale forward, he MUST stand behind that statement. Thus, if it turns out to be incorrect or false (regardless of intent), he must realize that his opinion had a hand in creating the agreement for sale and, now that the opinion has been proven false, one of the underpinnings of the original agreement has been destroyed.

 

Once self-serving opinions by the seller get thrown into the mix the onus lands squarely on the seller if those opinions as to a material defect are later proven false.

 

I don't know. Do you see a difference between:

 

1) I don't think it's a stain; and

 

2) I don't think it's a stain, but I can't be sure?

 

 

If Dan wasn't sure he should have never said anything. Once he said it he's got to own it all the way down the line if it turns out to be wrong. He'd want the same as a buyer, any of us would.

 

I see a similarity...neither should be forwarded in the sale of a 5 figure book if you aren't prepared as a seller to stand behind that statement when it turns out to be wrong.

 

It's called inducement and, regardless of qualifiers.

 

 

Bottom line for me, I would be 100% with Dan on this one without that opinion of it not being a stain having been made prior to agreement and sale. Once that happens he's got to back it up whether shown to be true or false.

 

I can't, in good conscience, side with Dan for taking a hard line stance to hold Bob, word for word, to what he said in making the deal and then (in the same breath) fault Bob for taking a hard line stance to hold Dan, word for word, to what he said in making the deal including the statements about the stain not being one.

 

 

 

 

I should have been more clear: I was thinking about this in the general context of a seller owning what they say, not in relation to this Dan/Bob matter.

 

In my view, if the facts were the same apart from the statement on the stain being as set out in 2), then a buyer shouldn't be able to withdraw in the event there's a stain.

 

I don't agree that you have to own every single statement of opinion all the way - it depends on exactly what you say. Otherwise you leave a seller in an impossible position - if they are asked a question and they are not absolutely 100% sure of the answer, they're supposed to just not even express an opinion?

 

 

Well it's a moot point now...given the seller's statement in the PGM thread.

 

However, that's the responsibility behind having an opinion. You're free to have one, but you aren't free from the consequences of having one.

 

If a seller wants to say "Doesn't look like one to me, but I don't know, buy at your own risk" and makes it crystal clear that his opinion is worth as much as a wooden nickel then, of course, it's on the buyer. There can be no misunderstanding that his opinion is really nothing.

 

It's only when the seller makes a statement that helps forward a sale and induces the buyer (regardless of seller's intent and honesty in belief of the opinion) to buy based on that opinion that the seller creates responsibility for himself to stand behind those statements.

 

So I think we agree.

[Balham's Finest]

But I can't look past "I don't think it's a stain".

When the question was raised in the FS thread, "could that be a stain?", other potential buyers have said they now thought a stain was possible, regardless of the sellers response.

So that puts the onus on the buyer to negotiate an out if that possibility arises.

 

Unfortunately I'm too tired to go through Speedy's locked thread and find out how many people wrote "new people don't understand how seriously we take the Takeit guy"

 

Value of the transaction or boardmember status shouldn't be a factor.

 

 

 

Two things that stick out to me:

 

1) The owner and seller is in the best possible position to give an opinion on whether something like this is a stain. He owns the books, held the book, took pictures, and offered his opinion. If he doesn't know he shouldn't give an opinion on something that could very well sway a buyer into agreeing to buy.

 

2) Once an owner makes a statement of opinion that could work in his favor to push a sale forward, he MUST stand behind that statement. Thus, if it turns out to be incorrect or false (regardless of intent), he must realize that his opinion had a hand in creating the agreement for sale and, now that the opinion has been proven false, one of the underpinnings of the original agreement has been destroyed.

 

Once self-serving opinions by the seller get thrown into the mix the onus lands squarely on the seller if those opinions as to a material defect are later proven false.

 

I don't know. Do you see a difference between:

 

1) I don't think it's a stain; and

 

2) I don't think it's a stain, but I can't be sure?

 

 

If Dan wasn't sure he should have never said anything. Once he said it he's got to own it all the way down the line if it turns out to be wrong. He'd want the same as a buyer, any of us would.

 

I see a similarity...neither should be forwarded in the sale of a 5 figure book if you aren't prepared as a seller to stand behind that statement when it turns out to be wrong.

 

It's called inducement and, regardless of qualifiers.

 

 

Bottom line for me, I would be 100% with Dan on this one without that opinion of it not being a stain having been made prior to agreement and sale. Once that happens he's got to back it up whether shown to be true or false.

 

I can't, in good conscience, side with Dan for taking a hard line stance to hold Bob, word for word, to what he said in making the deal and then (in the same breath) fault Bob for taking a hard line stance to hold Dan, word for word, to what he said in making the deal including the statements about the stain not being one.

 

 

 

 

I should have been more clear: I was thinking about this in the general context of a seller owning what they say, not in relation to this Dan/Bob matter.

 

In my view, if the facts were the same apart from the statement on the stain being as set out in 2), then a buyer shouldn't be able to withdraw in the event there's a stain.

 

I don't agree that you have to own every single statement of opinion all the way - it depends on exactly what you say. Otherwise you leave a seller in an impossible position - if they are asked a question and they are not absolutely 100% sure of the answer, they're supposed to just not even express an opinion?

 

What Dan said the second time was an opinion. He stated the first one as fact. That is why books should not be sold that are not in the hand of the seller so he can check them and verify the questions as fact.

 

Well, I don't agree that books should have to be in hand, for the reasons I wrote above. Also, there's no guarantee that you'd be able to answer a question definitively in every case, even if you did have the book. Sometimes, it's going to come down to an opinion.

[GIJOEISAWESOME-migration]

But I can't look past "I don't think it's a stain".

When the question was raised in the FS thread, "could that be a stain?", other potential buyers have said they now thought a stain was possible, regardless of the sellers response.

So that puts the onus on the buyer to negotiate an out if that possibility arises.

 

Unfortunately I'm too tired to go through Speedy's locked thread and find out how many people wrote "new people don't understand how seriously we take the Takeit guy"

 

Value of the transaction or boardmember status shouldn't be a factor.

 

 

 

Two things that stick out to me:

 

1) The owner and seller is in the best possible position to give an opinion on whether something like this is a stain. He owns the books, held the book, took pictures, and offered his opinion. If he doesn't know he shouldn't give an opinion on something that could very well sway a buyer into agreeing to buy.

 

2) Once an owner makes a statement of opinion that could work in his favor to push a sale forward, he MUST stand behind that statement. Thus, if it turns out to be incorrect or false (regardless of intent), he must realize that his opinion had a hand in creating the agreement for sale and, now that the opinion has been proven false, one of the underpinnings of the original agreement has been destroyed.

 

Once self-serving opinions by the seller get thrown into the mix the onus lands squarely on the seller if those opinions as to a material defect are later proven false.

 

I don't know. Do you see a difference between:

 

1) I don't think it's a stain; and

 

2) I don't think it's a stain, but I can't be sure?

 

The PGM thread (linked in the sales OP) from a week prior to the sale was more specific.

 

In fairness, Dan, you did say "No moisture stains any where on it"

 

That is different from "I don't think it's a stain."

 

Going to back 30 pages... I DID NOT see the stain when I had the book in hand!

 

When the book went up for sale and I was questioned again, all I had were pics to look at, so I answered the best I could. I still don't think its "moisture" damage

 

Regardless of whether you saw the stain or not, the stain WAS present, and you said it was not there. You did not say "I think" you said "There is no moisture stains anywhere on it"

 

 

You were wrong on that fact, be it accidental, and you must stand by that statement and its consequences

 

In fairness, that was in the PGM, not the sales thread though.

 

But he linked the PGM thread to the sales thread and basically said "go check here for grade guesses"

 

If he said in a thread in which people guessed grades "There are no moisture stains anywhere on it" that should not change now that he is trying to sell the book.

[Balham's Finest]

But I can't look past "I don't think it's a stain".

When the question was raised in the FS thread, "could that be a stain?", other potential buyers have said they now thought a stain was possible, regardless of the sellers response.

So that puts the onus on the buyer to negotiate an out if that possibility arises.

 

Unfortunately I'm too tired to go through Speedy's locked thread and find out how many people wrote "new people don't understand how seriously we take the Takeit guy"

 

Value of the transaction or boardmember status shouldn't be a factor.

 

 

 

Two things that stick out to me:

 

1) The owner and seller is in the best possible position to give an opinion on whether something like this is a stain. He owns the books, held the book, took pictures, and offered his opinion. If he doesn't know he shouldn't give an opinion on something that could very well sway a buyer into agreeing to buy.

 

2) Once an owner makes a statement of opinion that could work in his favor to push a sale forward, he MUST stand behind that statement. Thus, if it turns out to be incorrect or false (regardless of intent), he must realize that his opinion had a hand in creating the agreement for sale and, now that the opinion has been proven false, one of the underpinnings of the original agreement has been destroyed.

 

Once self-serving opinions by the seller get thrown into the mix the onus lands squarely on the seller if those opinions as to a material defect are later proven false.

 

I don't know. Do you see a difference between:

 

1) I don't think it's a stain; and

 

2) I don't think it's a stain, but I can't be sure?

 

 

If Dan wasn't sure he should have never said anything. Once he said it he's got to own it all the way down the line if it turns out to be wrong. He'd want the same as a buyer, any of us would.

 

I see a similarity...neither should be forwarded in the sale of a 5 figure book if you aren't prepared as a seller to stand behind that statement when it turns out to be wrong.

 

It's called inducement and, regardless of qualifiers.

 

 

Bottom line for me, I would be 100% with Dan on this one without that opinion of it not being a stain having been made prior to agreement and sale. Once that happens he's got to back it up whether shown to be true or false.

 

I can't, in good conscience, side with Dan for taking a hard line stance to hold Bob, word for word, to what he said in making the deal and then (in the same breath) fault Bob for taking a hard line stance to hold Dan, word for word, to what he said in making the deal including the statements about the stain not being one.

 

 

 

 

I should have been more clear: I was thinking about this in the general context of a seller owning what they say, not in relation to this Dan/Bob matter.

 

In my view, if the facts were the same apart from the statement on the stain being as set out in 2), then a buyer shouldn't be able to withdraw in the event there's a stain.

 

I don't agree that you have to own every single statement of opinion all the way - it depends on exactly what you say. Otherwise you leave a seller in an impossible position - if they are asked a question and they are not absolutely 100% sure of the answer, they're supposed to just not even express an opinion?

 

 

Well it's a moot point now...given the seller's statement in the PGM thread.

 

However, that's the responsibility behind having an opinion. You're free to have one, but you aren't free from the consequences of having one.

 

If a seller wants to say "Doesn't look like one to me, but I don't know, buy at your own risk" and makes it crystal clear that his opinion is worth as much as a wooden nickel then, of course, it's on the buyer. There can be no misunderstanding that his opinion is really nothing.

 

It's only when the seller makes a statement that helps forward a sale and induces the buyer (regardless of seller's intent and honesty in belief of the opinion) to buy based on that opinion that the seller creates responsibility for himself to stand behind those statements.

 

So I think we agree.

 

(thumbs u we do.

 

I think it's encumbent on the buyer and seller to be absolutely clear between themselves what the terms of a transaction are, particularly for high value books, and particularly if a book isn't in hand and/or is on its way to be graded.

[GIJOEISAWESOME-migration]

But I can't look past "I don't think it's a stain".

When the question was raised in the FS thread, "could that be a stain?", other potential buyers have said they now thought a stain was possible, regardless of the sellers response.

So that puts the onus on the buyer to negotiate an out if that possibility arises.

 

Unfortunately I'm too tired to go through Speedy's locked thread and find out how many people wrote "new people don't understand how seriously we take the Takeit guy"

 

Value of the transaction or boardmember status shouldn't be a factor.

 

 

 

Two things that stick out to me:

 

1) The owner and seller is in the best possible position to give an opinion on whether something like this is a stain. He owns the books, held the book, took pictures, and offered his opinion. If he doesn't know he shouldn't give an opinion on something that could very well sway a buyer into agreeing to buy.

 

2) Once an owner makes a statement of opinion that could work in his favor to push a sale forward, he MUST stand behind that statement. Thus, if it turns out to be incorrect or false (regardless of intent), he must realize that his opinion had a hand in creating the agreement for sale and, now that the opinion has been proven false, one of the underpinnings of the original agreement has been destroyed.

 

Once self-serving opinions by the seller get thrown into the mix the onus lands squarely on the seller if those opinions as to a material defect are later proven false.

 

I don't know. Do you see a difference between:

 

1) I don't think it's a stain; and

 

2) I don't think it's a stain, but I can't be sure?

 

 

If Dan wasn't sure he should have never said anything. Once he said it he's got to own it all the way down the line if it turns out to be wrong. He'd want the same as a buyer, any of us would.

 

I see a similarity...neither should be forwarded in the sale of a 5 figure book if you aren't prepared as a seller to stand behind that statement when it turns out to be wrong.

 

It's called inducement and, regardless of qualifiers.

 

 

Bottom line for me, I would be 100% with Dan on this one without that opinion of it not being a stain having been made prior to agreement and sale. Once that happens he's got to back it up whether shown to be true or false.

 

I can't, in good conscience, side with Dan for taking a hard line stance to hold Bob, word for word, to what he said in making the deal and then (in the same breath) fault Bob for taking a hard line stance to hold Dan, word for word, to what he said in making the deal including the statements about the stain not being one.

 

 

 

 

I should have been more clear: I was thinking about this in the general context of a seller owning what they say, not in relation to this Dan/Bob matter.

 

In my view, if the facts were the same apart from the statement on the stain being as set out in 2), then a buyer shouldn't be able to withdraw in the event there's a stain.

 

I don't agree that you have to own every single statement of opinion all the way - it depends on exactly what you say. Otherwise you leave a seller in an impossible position - if they are asked a question and they are not absolutely 100% sure of the answer, they're supposed to just not even express an opinion?

 

What Dan said the second time was an opinion. He stated the first one as fact. That is why books should not be sold that are not in the hand of the seller so he can check them and verify the questions as fact.

 

Well, I don't agree that books should have to be in hand, for the reasons I wrote above. Also, there's no guarantee that you'd be able to answer a question definitively in every case, even if you did have the book. Sometimes, it's going to come down to an opinion.

 

 

yes, it should come down to some opinion. After all, books are graded and priced based on opinion, but if an item is misrepresented, be it accidental or minute, the buyer should have a way out of the transaction. Especially since Dan did not state an opinion in the PGM thread, he stated an opinion as a verified fact. It was not a verified fact, it was an opinion.

[comix4fun]

But I can't look past "I don't think it's a stain".

When the question was raised in the FS thread, "could that be a stain?", other potential buyers have said they now thought a stain was possible, regardless of the sellers response.

So that puts the onus on the buyer to negotiate an out if that possibility arises.

 

Unfortunately I'm too tired to go through Speedy's locked thread and find out how many people wrote "new people don't understand how seriously we take the Takeit guy"

 

Value of the transaction or boardmember status shouldn't be a factor.

 

 

 

Two things that stick out to me:

 

1) The owner and seller is in the best possible position to give an opinion on whether something like this is a stain. He owns the books, held the book, took pictures, and offered his opinion. If he doesn't know he shouldn't give an opinion on something that could very well sway a buyer into agreeing to buy.

 

2) Once an owner makes a statement of opinion that could work in his favor to push a sale forward, he MUST stand behind that statement. Thus, if it turns out to be incorrect or false (regardless of intent), he must realize that his opinion had a hand in creating the agreement for sale and, now that the opinion has been proven false, one of the underpinnings of the original agreement has been destroyed.

 

Once self-serving opinions by the seller get thrown into the mix the onus lands squarely on the seller if those opinions as to a material defect are later proven false.

 

I don't know. Do you see a difference between:

 

1) I don't think it's a stain; and

 

2) I don't think it's a stain, but I can't be sure?

 

The PGM thread (linked in the sales OP) from a week prior to the sale was more specific.

 

In fairness, Dan, you did say "No moisture stains any where on it"

 

That is different from "I don't think it's a stain."

 

Going to back 30 pages... I DID NOT see the stain when I had the book in hand!

 

When the book went up for sale and I was questioned again, all I had were pics to look at, so I answered the best I could. I still don't think its "moisture" damage

 

Regardless of whether you saw the stain or not, the stain WAS present, and you said it was not there. You did not say "I think" you said "There is no moisture stains anywhere on it"

 

 

You were wrong on that fact, be it accidental, and you must stand by that statement and its consequences

 

In fairness, that was in the PGM, not the sales thread though.

 

In full disclosure, he linked the PGM discussion in the first post of his sales thread to guide people to the fact that others thought it could be an 8.5.

[Spider-Dan]

But I can't look past "I don't think it's a stain".

When the question was raised in the FS thread, "could that be a stain?", other potential buyers have said they now thought a stain was possible, regardless of the sellers response.

So that puts the onus on the buyer to negotiate an out if that possibility arises.

 

Unfortunately I'm too tired to go through Speedy's locked thread and find out how many people wrote "new people don't understand how seriously we take the Takeit guy"

 

Value of the transaction or boardmember status shouldn't be a factor.

 

 

 

Two things that stick out to me:

 

1) The owner and seller is in the best possible position to give an opinion on whether something like this is a stain. He owns the books, held the book, took pictures, and offered his opinion. If he doesn't know he shouldn't give an opinion on something that could very well sway a buyer into agreeing to buy.

 

2) Once an owner makes a statement of opinion that could work in his favor to push a sale forward, he MUST stand behind that statement. Thus, if it turns out to be incorrect or false (regardless of intent), he must realize that his opinion had a hand in creating the agreement for sale and, now that the opinion has been proven false, one of the underpinnings of the original agreement has been destroyed.

 

Once self-serving opinions by the seller get thrown into the mix the onus lands squarely on the seller if those opinions as to a material defect are later proven false.

 

I don't know. Do you see a difference between:

 

1) I don't think it's a stain; and

 

2) I don't think it's a stain, but I can't be sure?

 

The PGM thread (linked in the sales OP) from a week prior to the sale was more specific.

 

In fairness, Dan, you did say "No moisture stains any where on it"

 

That is different from "I don't think it's a stain."

 

Going to back 30 pages... I DID NOT see the stain when I had the book in hand!

 

When the book went up for sale and I was questioned again, all I had were pics to look at, so I answered the best I could. I still don't think its "moisture" damage

 

Regardless of whether you saw the stain or not, the stain WAS present, and you said it was not there. You did not say "I think" you said "There is no moisture stains anywhere on it"

 

 

You were wrong on that fact, be it accidental, and you must stand by that statement and its consequences

 

In fairness, that was in the PGM, not the sales thread though.

 

But he linked the PGM thread to the sales thread and basically said "go check here for grade guesses"

 

If he said in a thread in which people guessed grades "There are no moisture stains anywhere on it" that should not change now that he is trying to sell the book.

 

But I never said this...

 

 

I know, all my books are sucky

 

Now we are even

[Iceman399]

whew! Having just read the whole thing, it sounds like an unfortunate situation for both sides. I think I have a pretty good understanding of how both Dan and Bob feel. This is one of those gray area transactions and I think both parties should just walk away and call it a day.

 

This situation should serve as an object lesson for some of the pitfalls of simply buying a comic based solely on that big number in the upper left corner and selling before having the book in hand.

Perfect analysis. (thumbs u

 

So, Dan and Bob, what do we do now?

 

Bob extended the olive branch and opened up PM's

 

I am waiting to hear back

 

Good to hear! Hopefully you 2 can work something out. I don't think anyone here would disagree when I say this is a sticky situation regardless of what the result is and hope this can be smoothed over.

[Logan510]

O, and finally, it never hurts to be close, close, dear personal friends with Casey.

 

 

 

[jaybuck43]

I'm going to ask a stupid question (yes, I know everything that comes out of my mouth is stupid and therefore I don't need the qualifier) but at any point before the notes, did Bob mention anything about the stain? We know it was brought up in the thread by Finecollector but I hadn't seen anything in the PMs shown that the stain or possible stain was of any concern to Bob BEFORE he got the notes.

[Balham's Finest]

But I can't look past "I don't think it's a stain".

When the question was raised in the FS thread, "could that be a stain?", other potential buyers have said they now thought a stain was possible, regardless of the sellers response.

So that puts the onus on the buyer to negotiate an out if that possibility arises.

 

Unfortunately I'm too tired to go through Speedy's locked thread and find out how many people wrote "new people don't understand how seriously we take the Takeit guy"

 

Value of the transaction or boardmember status shouldn't be a factor.

 

 

 

Two things that stick out to me:

 

1) The owner and seller is in the best possible position to give an opinion on whether something like this is a stain. He owns the books, held the book, took pictures, and offered his opinion. If he doesn't know he shouldn't give an opinion on something that could very well sway a buyer into agreeing to buy.

 

2) Once an owner makes a statement of opinion that could work in his favor to push a sale forward, he MUST stand behind that statement. Thus, if it turns out to be incorrect or false (regardless of intent), he must realize that his opinion had a hand in creating the agreement for sale and, now that the opinion has been proven false, one of the underpinnings of the original agreement has been destroyed.

 

Once self-serving opinions by the seller get thrown into the mix the onus lands squarely on the seller if those opinions as to a material defect are later proven false.

 

I don't know. Do you see a difference between:

 

1) I don't think it's a stain; and

 

2) I don't think it's a stain, but I can't be sure?

 

The PGM thread (linked in the sales OP) from a week prior to the sale was more specific.

 

In fairness, Dan, you did say "No moisture stains any where on it"

 

That is different from "I don't think it's a stain."

 

Going to back 30 pages... I DID NOT see the stain when I had the book in hand!

 

When the book went up for sale and I was questioned again, all I had were pics to look at, so I answered the best I could. I still don't think its "moisture" damage

 

Regardless of whether you saw the stain or not, the stain WAS present, and you said it was not there. You did not say "I think" you said "There is no moisture stains anywhere on it"

 

 

You were wrong on that fact, be it accidental, and you must stand by that statement and its consequences

 

In fairness, that was in the PGM, not the sales thread though.

 

But he linked the PGM thread to the sales thread and basically said "go check here for grade guesses"

 

If he said in a thread in which people guessed grades "There are no moisture stains anywhere on it" that should not change now that he is trying to sell the book.

 

Ah, I didn't realise he linked the PGM to the sales thread.

 

But it seems obvious to me that the second statement qualifies the first one, particularly since the second was in the sales thread in response to a question from a buyer. If he had said it as an opinion in the PGM and a fact in the sales thread, you wouldn't be saying that the first statement carried more weight, would you?

[Iceman399]

But I can't look past "I don't think it's a stain".

When the question was raised in the FS thread, "could that be a stain?", other potential buyers have said they now thought a stain was possible, regardless of the sellers response.

So that puts the onus on the buyer to negotiate an out if that possibility arises.

 

Unfortunately I'm too tired to go through Speedy's locked thread and find out how many people wrote "new people don't understand how seriously we take the Takeit guy"

 

Value of the transaction or boardmember status shouldn't be a factor.

 

 

 

Two things that stick out to me:

 

1) The owner and seller is in the best possible position to give an opinion on whether something like this is a stain. He owns the books, held the book, took pictures, and offered his opinion. If he doesn't know he shouldn't give an opinion on something that could very well sway a buyer into agreeing to buy.

 

2) Once an owner makes a statement of opinion that could work in his favor to push a sale forward, he MUST stand behind that statement. Thus, if it turns out to be incorrect or false (regardless of intent), he must realize that his opinion had a hand in creating the agreement for sale and, now that the opinion has been proven false, one of the underpinnings of the original agreement has been destroyed.

 

Once self-serving opinions by the seller get thrown into the mix the onus lands squarely on the seller if those opinions as to a material defect are later proven false.

 

I don't know. Do you see a difference between:

 

1) I don't think it's a stain; and

 

2) I don't think it's a stain, but I can't be sure?

 

The PGM thread (linked in the sales OP) from a week prior to the sale was more specific.

 

In fairness, Dan, you did say "No moisture stains any where on it"

 

That is different from "I don't think it's a stain."

 

Going to back 30 pages... I DID NOT see the stain when I had the book in hand!

 

When the book went up for sale and I was questioned again, all I had were pics to look at, so I answered the best I could. I still don't think its "moisture" damage

 

Regardless of whether you saw the stain or not, the stain WAS present, and you said it was not there. You did not say "I think" you said "There is no moisture stains anywhere on it"

 

 

You were wrong on that fact, be it accidental, and you must stand by that statement and its consequences

 

In fairness, that was in the PGM, not the sales thread though.

 

But he linked the PGM thread to the sales thread and basically said "go check here for grade guesses"

 

If he said in a thread in which people guessed grades "There are no moisture stains anywhere on it" that should not change now that he is trying to sell the book.

 

But I never said this...

 

 

I know, all my books are sucky

 

Now we are even

 

you have far too few CAPITAL LETTERS thrown in your sentence Dan.