Manufactured Gold

[THE_BEYONDER]

I think october posted a link in his post above.

[october]

can someone provide more details about Halperin's alleged shady dealings in the coin genre? thanks!

 

I put the link in my post above...and unfortunately there is nothing "alleged" about them.

 

Here it is again.

 

http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2004/1227/156_print.html

[october]

Now, many coins are on the cusp between two grades and, ergo, between two significantly different prices. A 1944 half-dollar from the San Francisco mint that's been certified 64 will only fetch $80 at auction, but a 65 could get $700. So a dealer can crack out the 64 and resubmit it as a raw coin to the agency that he thinks is most likely to give it the boost.

 

Halperin says he does this with 15% of the thousands of coins Heritage buys each year. Much of the time, he gets what he's looking for.

 

Yep, TOTALLY far fetched that he could be doing the same with comics.

[Red Hook]

[Ze-man]

Very nice spots!

 

Is it possible to change them?

 

Ze-

[FFB]

At a panel at the SDCC in 2005 Jon Berk put collecting books into perspective for all when he said " I can remember when you would ask a dealer how much a book was and his response was, "it's a $500 book" and when asked what he graded it his response was, "what different does it make it's a $500 book". You either decided you wanted to spend $500 for it or you moved on.

 

I remember that discussion. Jon was talking about Steve Fishler. Steve said the book was $500 and Jon said "What grade is it?" And Steve said "It's the grade that costs $500." Kinda cuts right to the chase, doesn't it?

[THE_BEYONDER]

Very nice spots!

 

Is it possible to change them?

 

Unfortunately not. All you can do is either let the animal run free.....or take it down.

[FFB]

can someone provide more details about Halperin's alleged shady dealings in the coin genre? thanks!

 

I put the link in my post above...and unfortunately there is nothing "alleged" about them.

 

Here it is again.

 

http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2004/1227/156_print.html

 

Whenever someone trots out the Forbes article, I always think it's a good idea to link Halperin's rebuttal with it.

 

Halperin's rebuttal

[Davenport]

I sense this undercurrent of "it can't happen in my hobby, it's all paranoia" in this thread. It's important to remember that a scandal DID happen in coins....and the man behind it is now the man behind Heritage.

 

http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2004/1227/156_print.html

How likely is it that comics would be one collectible that's immune to shennaigans?

 

That Forbes article seems to spell it out... (emphasis added)

 

"He was dead center of his next misadventure after launching a coin grading agency, Numismatic Certification Institute, in 1984. It, too, went out of business, after the FTC found that Halperin was giving inflated grades to coins and marketing them through a Heritage-backed outfit called Certified Rare Coin Galleries."

 

"Heritage agreed in 1989 to pay $1.2 million in restitution."

 

"Still, Halperin has found a way to exploit the [professional grading] system. In lieu of running his own grading agency, he has invested in them and, by his own admission, has made millions in capital gains over the years (the agencies process perhaps 60,000 coins a month). He and Ivy each own close to 12.5% of NGC, and Heritage recently bought a music memorabilia auction business from Collector's Universe, the publicly traded company that owns PCGS and similar grading services for baseball cards and postage stamps."

 

"Coins graded by outfits like NGC can easily be regraded--upward--in a trick favored by Halperin and others called "the crack-out game."

 

"Halperin says he does this with 15% of the thousands of coins Heritage buys each year."

 

That seems fairly clear. So why would comic books be "hands-off" in that world?

[october]

can someone provide more details about Halperin's alleged shady dealings in the coin genre? thanks!

 

I put the link in my post above...and unfortunately there is nothing "alleged" about them.

 

Here it is again.

 

http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2004/1227/156_print.html

 

Whenever someone trots out the Forbes article, I always think it's a good idea to link Halperin's rebuttal with it.

 

Halperin's rebuttal

 

For sure. Thanks for posting it.

[THE_BEYONDER]

Anyone know who R. Steve Ivy is?

[alecholland]

What happened to MasterChief? He started a really interesting thread here. I would like to see some more examples.

 

I've been a casual observer of this thread for a few days now and I must say it is always interesting to me how so many intelligent people can come to such varied opinions about a matter. It is interesting to see how an individual's background and career choice also seem to influence how they view a situation.

 

With that said, I'm of the opinion that you would have to be extremely niave to think that wherever the opportunity to make large sums of money exists that there wouldn't occasionally be some devious and underhanded practices to improve the profit margin. It makes me think about all the car dealers who have cleaned up and sold Katrina flooded vehicles without disclosing any history to the buyer. Money talks. I think what goes around comes around though. For me, if the bottom drops out of this whole thing, it won't affect me, cause I bought my books to read and enjoy. Although I have bought CGC graded books, I always crack those bad boys. There is artwork and writing on the inside of those books too after all.

 

At any rate, I always seem to chime in on these things at the tail end of their lifecycle.

 

A couple people had a question about scanning books. If a seller (Heritage, CL, Ebay seller, etc...) wanted to make the whites look whiter, it is no problem to do something like that in Photoshop. There are a variety of methods you can use to remove yellow from the whites in an image using Photoshop. You could even set up a recorded action that could be reused automatically on each image after scanning, eliminating the need to have someone sit and color correct each scan. I work with product photos all the time. I could make a yellow comic page look snow white with the click of one button, no problem.

 

My two pennies.

[shadroch]

At a panel at the SDCC in 2005 Jon Berk put collecting books into perspective for all when he said " I can remember when you would ask a dealer how much a book was and his response was, "it's a $500 book" and when asked what he graded it his response was, "what different does it make it's a $500 book". You either decided you wanted to spend $500 for it or you moved on.

 

I remember that discussion. Jon was talking about Steve Fishler. Steve said the book was $500 and Jon said "What grade is it?" And Steve said "It's the grade that costs $500." Kinda cuts right to the chase, doesn't it?

 

Change the names and numbers,throw in a newspaper being read and thats the last conversation I had with Richie Muchin.

[Red Hook]

It is the endless speculation based on nothing factual that annoys people like myself and Tim and I am sure others.

 

One example that both Tim and I have first hand knowledge of.

 

I have seen on more than one occasion people accuse Heritage of shill bidding their own auctions up to a persons maximum bid. If that were true, just from the bids I have placed personally my bill at Heritage would have been about $300,000 more for the last three years. That is just one bidder. I know Tim has had a similar experience because we have spoke about it. ( I can't speak to $ specifics for Tim as that would be me guessing but I am sure he can shed some light on the subject.

 

With all due respect.....can you provide a link to that particular accusation? You say there are several places that's been stated. Where?

 

Also, what "endless speculation" are you referring to? Can you give any examples?

 

Here are a few "facts". I don't consider these speculation.

 

- Heritage does allow their own employees to bid on active auctions.

- Jason Ewert, a charter member of CGC, trimmed books. He also denied pressing books. His current involvement in the hobby is "unknown".

- There is an active practice of pushing a book to it's potential and resubbing. Certain dealers seem to consider it their civic duty to do so.

- CGC's grading is sometimes inconsistant, resulting in huge market value swings in the price of the same book when it reappears with a different grade.

- The definition of a pedigree has undergone recent "muddling".

- Comiclink will auction off Jason Ewert books without public disclosure.

- Less information continues to favor the seller, and hurt the buyer.

- After PCS was folded, Chris Freisen has become a non-entity. No mention on the CGC website. No appearances at cons or at dinners. No posting on the boards. No references made to him by any CGC employee.

- Collectors who have invested relatively huge amounts of money in graded books are naturally going to react defensively to talk of impropriety within the hobby. They have more at stake. I do consider you and Tim to fall into that category. Nothing personal. I understand.

 

As for Filter81's concerns....I file those under "probables and cautionary warnings". I have spoken to him personally. I do not consider him an irrresponsible person, a hysteric or a man with a vendetta.

 

I also do not buy recently graded big number books and definitely prefer old CGC label books to new label books. Of course my personal current narrow collecting interests limit my exposure to big number bronze and silver books.

 

I really would love a summary of some of what you consider to be outrageous, paranoid accusations without any basis. I would opine that there are not that many.

[Red Hook]

can someone provide more details about Halperin's alleged shady dealings in the coin genre? thanks!

 

I put the link in my post above...and unfortunately there is nothing "alleged" about them.

 

Here it is again.

 

http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2004/1227/156_print.html

 

Whenever someone trots out the Forbes article, I always think it's a good idea to link Halperin's rebuttal with it.

 

Halperin's rebuttal

 

 

Good!

[MasterChief]

All:

 

Appreciate the discourse taking place. Great stuff. Never imaged the thread would take-off the way it has.

 

Thanks are in order to those who have provided meaningful input. The passion you display for the hobby is evident. Please continue providing insight, opinions, and if applicable, informational resources. Hopefully the reader will benefit from your effort.

 

As mentioned earlier, I have only scratched the surface. Another example will go up when the current dialog comes to a close.

 

--MC

[Davenport]

 

A couple people had a question about scanning books. If a seller (Heritage, CL, Ebay seller, etc...) wanted to make the whites look whiter, it is no problem to do something like that in Photoshop. There are a variety of methods you can use to remove yellow from the whites in an image using Photoshop. You could even set up a recorded action that could be reused automatically on each image after scanning, eliminating the need to have someone sit and color correct each scan. I work with product photos all the time. I could make a yellow comic page look snow white with the click of one button, no problem.

 

Exactly.

 

Here's the same book, same holder, same serial number from two different venues, and judging from the glare, probably the exact same scan.

The left is Heritage and the right is eBay.

 

[Bullet123]

It is the endless speculation based on nothing factual that annoys people like myself and Tim and I am sure others.

 

One example that both Tim and I have first hand knowledge of.

 

I have seen on more than one occasion people accuse Heritage of shill bidding their own auctions up to a persons maximum bid. If that were true, just from the bids I have placed personally my bill at Heritage would have been about $300,000 more for the last three years. That is just one bidder. I know Tim has had a similar experience because we have spoke about it. ( I can't speak to $ specifics for Tim as that would be me guessing but I am sure he can shed some light on the subject.

 

With all due respect.....can you provide a link to that particular accusation? You say there are several places that's been stated. Where?

 

Also, what "endless speculation" are you referring to? Can you give any examples?

 

Here are a few "facts". I don't consider these speculation.

 

- Heritage does allow their own employees to bid on active auctions.

- Jason Ewert, a charter member of CGC, trimmed books. He also denied pressing books. His current involvement in the hobby is "unknown".

- There is an active practice of pushing a book to it's potential and resubbing. Certain dealers seem to consider it their civic duty to do so.

- CGC's grading is sometimes inconsistant, resulting in huge market value swings in the price of the same book when it reappears with a different grade.

- The definition of a pedigree has undergone recent "muddling".

- Comiclink will auction off Jason Ewert books without public disclosure.

- Less information continues to favor the seller, and hurt the buyer.

- After PCS was folded, Chris Freisen has become a non-entity. No mention on the CGC website. No appearances at cons or at dinners. No posting on the boards. No references made to him by any CGC employee.

- Collectors who have invested relatively huge amounts of money in graded books are naturally going to react defensively to talk of impropriety within the hobby. They have more at stake. I do consider you and Tim to fall into that category. Nothing personal. I understand.

 

As for Filter81's concerns....I file those under "probables and cautionary warnings". I have spoken to him personally. I do not consider him an irrresponsible person, a hysteric or a man with a vendetta.

 

I also do not buy recently graded big number books and definitely prefer old CGC label books to new label books. Of course my personal current narrow collecting interests limit my exposure to big number bronze and silver books.

 

I really would love a summary of some of what you consider to be outrageous, paranoid accusations without any basis. I would opine that there are not that many.

 

Here is one from page 3 of this thread

So, since Heritage says no employees ever bid on these auctions for resale, what exactly happens in a situation like this? Someone buys the book through Heritage as an 8.0 and thinks it looks like an 8.5 so they send it to CGC. They get the grade they want and they decide to resell it through Heritage to someone else who buys it thinking the new 8.5 looks like a 9.2. So then this second person cracks the case again and decides to send it to CGC and this time it comes back a 9.2. After it comes back from CGC as a 9.2 this person too decides to sell the book through Heritage. Then a third person buys the 9.2 through Heritage and shortly after that decides to sell the book directly to Halperin at significantly less than what he paid. Then, rather than auctioning off the book using his own multi-million dollar consignment service Halperin decides he'll have better luck consigning the book to LewisWayneGalleries on eBay?

 

Can you show me where there is irrefutable evidence that Heritage did anything other than auction these books ?

[JJBEE2001]

WOW, big difference in that FF book. Funny how it has Cream to Off-White pages with a "snow" white cover (at least it does in the Ebay scan).

[FFB]

can someone provide more details about Halperin's alleged shady dealings in the coin genre? thanks!

 

I put the link in my post above...and unfortunately there is nothing "alleged" about them.

 

Here it is again.

 

http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2004/1227/156_print.html

 

Whenever someone trots out the Forbes article, I always think it's a good idea to link Halperin's rebuttal with it.

 

Halperin's rebuttal

 

 

Good!

 

What I find kind of troubling (and this is not directed at you, Brad) is how whenever someone trots out the Forbes article, they always neglect to mention Halperin's rebuttal even though they know it's out there.

 

From now on, if we're going to cite the Forbes article, let's give equal time to Halperin's response to it. We'd all want the same consideration if the article were about any of us. The rebuttal isn't hard to find. jhalpe (Halperin's ID on the boards) has something like 7 total posts on these boards and the link to his rebuttal is in one of his two posts that isn't on the topic of Ed Jaster's heart attack.