Manufactured Gold

[THE_BEYONDER]

Glad they're being clear and upfront about it.

 

It's like the terms printed on the back of your credit card statement. It's meant to be overlooked and misconstrued.

 

It's pretty clear they're saying they can list and bid on their own items...we may not agree with it, but since someone asked what the catalogue terms and conditions stated regarding this, I gave the answer.

 

[Monstro]

hey....i've got an idea. stop collecting comics for investment purposes.

[Red Hook]

It doesn't say "employees". It's not clear. It's misleading. It's buried in a lot of small print. It's 100% non-customer-friendly.

 

And I would never bid in an auction where insider action was allowed.

 

[THE_BEYONDER]

Is it even legal?

[Vtcomics]

Glad they're being clear and upfront about it.

 

It's like the terms printed on the back of your credit card statement. It's meant to be overlooked and misconstrued.

 

It's pretty clear they're saying they can list and bid on their own items...we may not agree with it, but since someone asked what the catalogue terms and conditions stated regarding this, I gave the answer.

 

 

If true it is deplorable. Any reputable auction firm would NEVER allow it's owners/staff to partake in any of the auctions. It's the #1 basic rule of thumb. I have a feeling Heritage is about to find difficulty soon.....

[Mr. Zipper]

Is it even legal?

 

In Texas it is.

[THE_BEYONDER]

Is it even legal?

 

In Texas it is.

 

Wow

[nik]

Never have, I just enjoy owning nice looking copies

[drbanner]

Glad they're being clear and upfront about it.

 

It's like the terms printed on the back of your credit card statement. It's meant to be overlooked and misconstrued.

 

It's pretty clear they're saying they can list and bid on their own items...we may not agree with it, but since someone asked what the catalogue terms and conditions stated regarding this, I gave the answer.

 

 

If true it is deplorable. Any reputable auction firm would NEVER allow it's owners/staff to partake in any of the auctions. It's the #1 basic rule of thumb. I have a feeling Heritage is about to find difficulty soon.....

 

Heritage (and Heritage employees) bidding on their own auctions is old news and has been discussed here at length in the past, it's true.

 

Is it legal? I'm no lawyer, but I recall these previous discussions alluding to the fact that one of the reasons they are based in Texas is that it's legal in Texas.

[Mr. Zipper]

If true it is deplorable. Any reputable auction firm would NEVER allow it's owners/staff to partake in any of the auctions. It's the #1 basic rule of thumb. I have a feeling Heritage is about to find difficulty soon.....

 

While I agree with you, this isn't new information. For years some have speculated that Heritage is located in Texas for this very reason.

 

As usual, some people are outraged... most don't care or don't want to know. Heritage continues to rake in the cash.

 

[THE_BEYONDER]

"One of the reasons"?

 

I think it's clear that it's the only reason.

[Red Hook]

Found this interesting article that doesn't necessarily make me jump up and down with joy, but I'm linking to it here to expand the discussion....please read the whole thing......some good material in here......

 

The Harsh Reality

 

 

In the end...it's up to each individual as to whether they want to subject themselves to this possible maniupulation, whether it's illegal or not. That's a no-brainer for me.

[drbanner]

It doesn't say "employees". It's not clear. It's misleading. It's buried in a lot of small print. It's 100% non-customer-friendly.

 

And I would never bid in an auction where insider action was allowed.

 

You can choose not to read the terms and conditions of any auction you bid on whether it's ebay, Comiclink, or Heritage. Likewise, you can choose not to bid on any ebay, Comiclink, or Heritage auction.

[Red Hook]

Good advice offered to auctioneers from the article.....my emphasis added.....

 

 

 

Perception. The law speaks frequently of the "appearance of impropriety." This becomes an issue when something generally looks bad, even if it's technically not.

 

Canons of ethical conduct prescribe that acts should typically be avoided when they might appear improper to others. Insider bidding often falls under this umbrella of just looking bad. Auctioneers need to be ever mindful that the public is much against this practice and quite distrusting of it. Public mistrust readily sees the appearance of impropriety with insider bidding, even where none exists—and perception often trumps reality.

 

Practice Suggestion. Here are five suggestions for auctioneers who want to allow insider bidding.

 

First, always ensure you have the seller's explicit approval.

 

Second, never engage in insider bidding if the law of the jurisdiction prohibits it.

 

Third, always make full and clear disclosure to the crowd that the auctioneer, his staff, and/or relatives may bid during the sale. Full disclosure cures many ills.

 

Fourth, always give other bidders more than reasonable opportunity to win the bid.

Fifth, don't ask the crowd if anyone objects to insider bidding and then rely on the inevitable silence as an endorsement. Many people who do object won't say so publicly.

 

I like that last one.

[THE_BEYONDER]

Thanks for the link Brad. Interesting read.

[Red Hook]

Here's my point.

 

As Doc says, in many ways this is old news.

 

For us.

 

But not for the newer board members and the new collectors coming to these boards every day.

 

In order to balance out the very overwhelming WOW factor present on boards like these..... major gush threads about big numbers, high prices realized, new pedigrees....I think it's necessary on a regular basis to discuss some of the bigger consumer-oriented issues that exist in the hobby.

 

If a newbie comes on here, reads all about this and decides to go ahead and bid on Heritage auctions....I am 100% fine with that.

 

If a newbie comes on here, reads about the activity of pressing, the active market in resubs and the vaguries of grading as practiced by CGC (information that they will find discussed regularly nowhere else....certainly not on CGC's website or in the hobby press)...and then decides he'll still take a flyer at a Matt Nelson auction....then I am 100% fine with that.

 

If a newbie comes on here and learns about Comiclink allowing the auction on their site of Ewert identified books and the possiblity they might be trimmed, and decided to go ahead and bid...then I am 100% fine with that.

 

So some of you may be jaded, or tired of hearing this material... but it's no more tiring than the endless WOW-CHECK-OUT-THE-NEW-MEGA-NUMBER-BOOK-ON-SITE-X threads.....and the NEW-KINDA'-PEDIGREE-ANNOUNCED...threads..so it all balances out in the end, we should all remain friends and lets have a group hug. You do your thing. I'll do mine.

 

Red

[october]

I sense this undercurrent of "it can't happen in my hobby, it's all paranoia" in this thread. It's important to remember that a scandal DID happen in coins....and the man behind it is now the man behind Heritage. People are free to do as they will, but I have seen enough. I will NEVER buy from Heritage or bid on their auctions again. It won't make a bit of difference to them, but I am too fed up with shadiness in this hobby to contribute, even a little, to an operation that leaves so many unanswered questions.

 

http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2004/1227/156_print.html

[Bullet123]

Here's my point.

 

As Doc says, in many ways this is old news.

 

For us.

 

But not for the newer board members and the new collectors coming to these boards every day.

 

In order to balance out the very overwhelming WOW factor present on boards like these..... major gush threads about big numbers, high prices realized, new pedigrees....I think it's necessary on a regular basis to discuss some of the bigger consumer-oriented issues that exist in the hobby.

 

If a newbie comes on here, reads all about this and decides to go ahead and bid on Heritage auctions....I am 100% fine with that.

 

If a newbie comes on here, reads about the activity of pressing, the active market in resubs and the vaguries of grading as practiced by CGC (information that they will find discussed regularly nowhere else....certainly not on CGC's website or in the hobby press)...and then decides he'll still take a flyer at a Matt Nelson auction....then I am 100% fine with that.

 

If a newbie comes on here and learns about Comiclink allowing the auction on their site of Ewert identified books and the possiblity they might be trimmed, and decided to go ahead and bid...then I am 100% fine with that.

 

So some of you may be jaded, or tired of hearing this material... but it's no more tiring than the endless WOW-CHECK-OUT-THE-NEW-MEGA-NUMBER-BOOK-ON-SITE-X threads.....and the NEW-KINDA'-PEDIGREE-ANNOUNCED...threads..so it all balances out in the end, we should all remain friends and lets have a group hug. You do your thing. I'll do mine.

 

Red

 

Finally a rational post. I too think that what you are doing is imformative and ultimately, people should be smart enough to make their own decisions based on the "facts" presented. It is the endless speculation based on nothing factual that annoys people like myself and Tim and I am sure others.

 

One example that both Tim and I have first hand knowledge of.

 

I have seen on more than one occasion people accuse Heritage of shill bidding their own auctions up to a persons maximum bid. If that were true, just from the bids I have placed personally my bill at Heritage would have been about $300,000 more for the last three years. That is just one bidder. I know Tim has had a similar experience because we have spoke about it. ( I can't speak to $ specifics for Tim as that would be me guessing but I am sure he can shed some light on the subject.

 

At a panel at the SDCC in 2005 Jon Berk put collecting books into perspective for all when he said " I can remember when you would ask a dealer how much a book was and his response was, "it's a $500 book" and when asked what he graded it his response was, "what different does it make it's a $500 book". You either decided you wanted to spend $500 for it or you moved on.

[Vtcomics]

can someone provide more details about Halperin's alleged shady dealings in the coin genre? thanks!

[Ze-man]

Andy, Brad, both of the points you made combine to sum up how I feel.

 

Just because WE all have discussed topics like this before, does not mean that new members know about them, let alone know how to seach for them. Seeing how we discuss any given topic in such detail might actually scare off a good many new members from wanting to contribute to the conversation. But at least they can walk away from a thread with a different persective of the hobby by what they read. In most cases, BOTH sides of an arguement are usually represented in threads like this.

 

Altering how,and who we buy our comics from seems to be the biggest change I see come from all this discourse. I suppose I am more jaded then I was 2 years ago. But at the same time I still love this hobby and a majority of the people in it. Not letting what I percive to be rotten in the hobby spoil my fun has been the hard part. The more one learns the harder it is to stay wide eyed and innocent, but this hobby is not innocent anymore, if it ever was.

 

Opening your eyes to what is going on around you does not mean one cannot still enjoy the hobby. But I am not in it for the money, so perhaps I see things in a differet light.

 

Heritage is what it is, a big machine that keeps chugging along. Myself, Red, Filter or Andy and others not buying from them wont stop them in their tracks. But I would like to think if enough people are made aware of at least what could "potentially" be going on, and have that outweigh their need to buy the pretty books they have for sale, then that might alter their current M.O. slightly, perhaps, maybe.

 

Kenny