Manufactured Gold

[The Troll King]

I'm not sure about other states, I can only assume that it is the same, but here in Texas it is not uncommon for an auction house to purchase items that have been consigned to them and then to later resell them.

 

I've dealt with antiques of all sorts for many years and have attended more than my fair share of live auctions. Normally what will transpire is that an item that is indeed valuable will get a weak number of bids and a decision is made by the auction house to cover the bidding so that the item can be properly sold at a future date either through auction or in a retail setting for the amount that such an item should receive.

 

Forget about comics for a moment, this type of activity happens will all types of auction items whether they be cars, homes, furniture, or marbles.

 

In the end the consignor receives their money as stated in the consignment agreement that said item would be sold on such and such day. WHO CARES if it was someone attending the auction or the auction house owner that bought it? The consignor enters into an agreement with the consignee and in Texas contracts of any sort are binding to the 'nth degree.

 

Just because an auction house makes more money on an item by saving it for the proper "audience" in a future auction doesn't mean that they've done any wrong doing. It's a standard business practice that has gone on for 150 years, at least in this state.

 

The same can be said for estate liquidation type companies. (I almost started one at one point. Keep in mind that my references are specific to Texas and may be/are different in other states)

If someone hires an estate liquidation company to come in and hold an estate sale often times at the end of the sale the liquidation company will make an offer for the remaining items so that they can be sold at retail OR (and this happens A LOT here) the items are moved to the NEXT estate sale and the proceeds of those items sold are kept entirely by the liquidation company.

 

ALL of this is set out in the agreements that ALL parties involved sign. I know of 4 liquidation companies off-hand that also have retail establishments and will sell items that were "left-overs" of a weak estate sale.

 

Let's say you have a chair that could potentially be worth $10,000 if only the seat were recovered yet at an auction the high bid is only $3,000. In such a case it is not uncommon at all for the auction company itself to purchase said chair, recover it, and then put it up for auction again. They may or may not get more than the $3,000 but the potential is there for them to now make a lot more with no harm or foul to anyone. The original owner of the chair under their agreement is happy, the auction house is happy, and the new owner is happy. The only person not happy is the one that got out bid the first time by the auction company and you know... c'est la vie.

[FFB]

And maybe you're choosing to believe what you want to believe because you think it supports your world view.

 

Regardless, without videotaped evidence, Batman_fan is just going to call this NO PROOF anyway, so it's pointless to argue about it. I believe that there was NDP pressing to a significant degree before CGC because I've spoken to people who told me they did it (not on cheap books like now, but on more expensive books). You don't believe that. We can still coexist despite our different beliefs.

 

Oh...I believe it was going on...but only at a fraction of the degree or quantities we are seeing now...

 

Jim

 

Yeah, you're probably right about that. There are more people doing it now and they're doing it to cheaper books. It used to be reserved mostly (but not exclusively) for the world's finest comics, where the value of the books justified the work.

[OldGuy]

You thought it would turn into "Last Stand at the Heritage Corral"?

 

I didn't.

 

Nothing that specific, but just the usual "mixed nuts".

 

And you're not one of us, eh?

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm just as nutty as the next guy here.

 

I'm just skeptical that MC started this thread thinking "I'll just post some informative pictures and I'm sure everyone will see them, form their own opinions and then quietly move along."

 

Come on, has that ever happened here, especially with the type of information that's been posted?

[esquirecomics]

Lou_fine can say what he wants, but I know for a fact that NDP was going on to a significant degree before CGC.

 

Says who? And could you be more specific on what passed for "significant" compared to the NDP activities going on today?

 

Jim

 

So say "my sources."

 

What constitutes a "significant degree"?

 

Are your sources dealers, collectors or both?

 

How many sources?

 

What time frame are we talking about?

 

Jim's right -- there IS an echo in here!

 

Not really Scott, you haven't answered the questions I've asked. You only provided a general response to Jim. I am not asking for you to name your sources or even provide identifying information, but your degree of "significant" may be entirely different from the rest of us. I'm just trying to get a better handle of why you believe intact pressing alone (not coupled with other accepted restorative techniques) was not primarily an outgrowth of CGC.

[Flaming_Telepath]

And maybe you're choosing to believe what you want to believe because you think it supports your world view.

 

Regardless, without videotaped evidence, Batman_fan is just going to call this NO PROOF anyway, so it's pointless to argue about it. I believe that there was NDP pressing to a significant degree before CGC because I've spoken to people who told me they did it (not on cheap books like now, but on more expensive books). You don't believe that. We can still coexist despite our different beliefs.

 

Oh...I believe it was going on...but only at a fraction of the degree or quantities we are seeing now...

 

Jim

 

Yeah, you're probably right about that. There are more people doing it now and they're doing it to cheaper books. It used to be reserved mostly (but not exclusively) for the world's finest comics, where the value of the books justified the work.

 

Having been buying high grade key books for 16-17 years now (I had an X-Men, Avengers & DD #1 in 1990, amongst others), I think that this is about spot-on. Nobody could be arsed on anything other than big ticket items back then and the other difference was that pressing was simply a cosmetic job, designed to enhance the WOW appeal, hopefully leading to a customer seeing the book and immediately whipping out his wallet.

 

Yeah, there was something of a mark-up after the work was done, but nothing like...not even close...to the multiples the CGC numerical grading system encourages.

 

Which is why it is so much more common these days, obviously.

[esquirecomics]

I'm not sure about other states, I can only assume that it is the same, but here in Texas it is not uncommon for an auction house to purchase items that have been consigned to them and then to later resell them.

 

I've dealt with antiques of all sorts for many years and have attended more than my fair share of live auctions. Normally what will transpire is that an item that is indeed valuable will get a weak number of bids and a decision is made by the auction house to cover the bidding so that the item can be properly sold at a future date either through auction or in a retail setting for the amount that such an item should receive.

 

Forget about comics for a moment, this type of activity happens will all types of auction items whether they be cars, homes, furniture, or marbles.

 

In the end the consignor receives their money as stated in the consignment agreement that said item would be sold on such and such day. WHO CARES if it was someone attending the auction or the auction house owner that bought it? The consignor enters into an agreement with the consignee and in Texas contracts of any sort are binding to the 'nth degree.

 

Just because an auction house makes more money on an item by saving it for the proper "audience" in a future auction doesn't mean that they've done any wrong doing. It's a standard business practice that has gone on for 150 years, at least in this state.

 

The same can be said for estate liquidation type companies. (I almost started one at one point. Keep in mind that my references are specific to Texas and may be/are different in other states)

If someone hires an estate liquidation company to come in and hold an estate sale often times at the end of the sale the liquidation company will make an offer for the remaining items so that they can be sold at retail OR (and this happens A LOT here) the items are moved to the NEXT estate sale and the proceeds of those items sold are kept entirely by the liquidation company.

 

ALL of this is set out in the agreements that ALL parties involved sign. I know of 4 liquidation companies off-hand that also have retail establishments and will sell items that were "left-overs" of a weak estate sale.

 

Let's say you have a chair that could potentially be worth $10,000 if only the seat were recovered yet at an auction the high bid is only $3,000. In such a case it is not uncommon at all for the auction company itself to purchase said chair, recover it, and then put it up for auction again. They may or may not get more than the $3,000 but the potential is there for them to now make a lot more with no harm or foul to anyone. The original owner of the chair under their agreement is happy, the auction house is happy, and the new owner is happy. The only person not happy is the one that got out bid the first time by the auction company and you know... c'est la vie.

 

True. Under TX law the auctioneer needs to clearly state that he/she has the right to bid on items in the auction, and I presume, though have not found the relevant state regulation, that extends that to all of the auction house employees.

 

The question/issue that is more important to me is not the scenario you describe where the auction house sees a low bid on an item so buys it without competition but to what extent Heritage's employees (and I am not saying they are, just asking the question) are actively engaged in bidding on mulitple items during the bidding process thereby raising the price but they do not ultimately prevail.

 

I am also interested in knowing how much of the inventory is owned by Heritage outright. I thought I recalled seeing something relating to ownership in the TX regs but need to check. I will say in all fairness that whenever I asked Heritage about the ownership of certain lots they did respond whether they owned it or if it was consigned.

[Viscosity-migration]

Master Chief's scans were like oil bubbling in water...getting hotter, and hotter by the minute.

 

The bottomline, imo is this: there ARE shady/fraudulent activities going on in OUR hobby (that's involves ALL of us that are part of these boards& hobby)

 

Personalities aside (which will always cause debate, anamosity, disdain, who cares, we don't all have to live together, grow up ) this "stuff" IS a big problem, and regardless of threads being "derailed" is THAT the bigger problem than trying to ascertain what it IS exactly, that's happening and causing obvious, great resentment from some of us, and complete looming trouble for the hobby in the near future?

 

Again, sorry for the redundancy...but, i'm truly perplexed by the approach and opinion of some on this boards regarding this "stuff" It just seems many here would simply rather ignore the constant disrespect being shown to our beloved hobby, by "some" in the profiterring section and pretend its all smoke and mirrors...its not!

 

Don't be so myopic, this isn't going away, and I for one WON'T "shut up" because it would be IMO...the height of irresponsibility to do so. I'm deeply bothered by this S@#T and those "involved" in perpetrating the incessant smell....that just seems to get worse and worse by the day

 

Nope, not for me, imo... its time to clean it up....once and for all.

[comicwiz]

Give this a go...

Since the last thread was hijacked, I will post the books here. Not sure how to fix the images. Maybe someone can help me out with that.Please, no hijacking. Thanks to Master Chief for putting this all together.

In an effort to provide useful information and hopefully add, on my part, some semblance of meaningful input, I'd like to present a few examples of books I've catalogued as appearing to have some form of treatment applied to enhance their appearance and monetary value.In most cases, the treatments that I have been able to ascertain center on aesthetic repair. Whether it is in some form of cleaning, pressing, or combination of the two, it is my belief they were applied with the intent of returning the book to that of its original condition.That said, I would like to state that I am by no means an expert in the area of restoration detection. Nor am I an expert in restoration treatment techniques and the procedures used therein. I am as much a novice in this area as I am a poster on these boards. So if there is error on my part, or there is opportunity to provide additional educational insight as to something for which I've missed, I would like nothing more than for those with experience to impart their knowledge for the benefit of all.Prior to posting an example, I will make an effort to determine if it has seen previous board discussion. If after posting it is noticed that the book in question has indeed been aired earlier, please let me know and I'll delete it. Thx!***************** Planet Comics #38 (nee Crowley Copy) In a matter of five months, this 9.2 designated Crowley Copy was purchased, treated, recertified as an un-designated 9.6, and then resold at auction for a positive gain.The example appears to have been cleaned and pressed. Soiling, staining and minor creasing which appear on the original book have been removed, for the most part, upon examining the touched version.The 9.6 (0044751005) was graded on October 10, 2002 and has become the highest graded copy to date. The 9.2 (0010526002) is no longer searchable in the CGC certification database.Certification/Resale Provenance:Resource Links: Planet Comics #38 (9.2) Crowley Copy Planet Comics #38 (9.6)

Appreciate the kind comments one and all. I will continue to post examples as time permits ... This next one will make you sick to your stomach and leave you shaking your head wondering why. Quite unfortunate really. The extent that some will go for the sake of profiteering is simply amazing.If you have the time, I recommend you examine the hi-res scans to gain a full appreciation for the level of treatment done to this very small part of comic book history.**************** Fighting Yank #26 (Edgar Church / Mile High) Although the piece appears to be pressed, it is the cleaning treatment that is undeniably noticeable. I'm not sure exactly what process was used, but I will venture a guess and say it was more than just dry cleaning. As a result, the cover has lost all character aging and now exhibits an unreal reproduction look.The Church Copy of Fighting Yank #26 was purchased at auction as a CGC certified 8.5 with White Pages in the summer of 2002. It was billed as being "unparalleled in its stunning appeal". At the time, and prior to any manipulation, the Church Copy was the highest graded specimen to date. The copy appeared again at auction in the winter of 2002. This time minus any third-party grading certification. It was sold raw and advertised as a Mile High Pedigree in VF/NM (9.0) condition. The auction description, in part, included the following: "Exhibiting fresh pages, full gloss, and perfectly sharp edges..." and "CGC could not encapsulate the book due to an overhang along the right edge."The original 8.5 copy (0056475003) is no longer searchable in the CGC certification database, and only two copies of Fighting Yank #26 currently appear in the CGC census. One copy in 8.0 and the other in 5.0 condition respectfully.Certification/Resale Provenance:Resource Links: Fighting Yank #26 (8.5) Edgar Church/Mile High Fight Yank #26 VF/NM (Raw) Edgar Church/Mile High Images:

The following example provides an excellent illustration of what, in my opinion, constitutes disassembly and reassembly pressing treatments. So dramatic are the before and after images that one may safely assume the procedure involved removing the staples to individually press the cover and interior pages, then re-assembling the component parts to press as a complete unit.One particular area of note concerning this piece is the degradation in page quality between certified versions. The treatment procedure, coupled with perhaps an over-zealous restorer, may have contributed directly to producing this unexpected and dire consequence. As a result, the decline in quality destroyed any hope of manufacturing a FMV upwards of $10,000.*************** Sub-Mariner Comics #1 First appearing at auction in October of 2002, this solid mid-grade copy of Sub-Mariner Comics #1, with cream to off-white pages and bearing a label comment of "two detached center wraps", sold for a respectable amount.Three months later the book reappeared at auction. This time with a slight up-tick in its numeric grade and branded with a new text notation stating "2 small pieces of tape on centerfold; slightly brittle pages". The modified version met with reduced interest and realized a 22% loss from its original state. The evidence of pressing, slight cleaning, and the reattached center wraps went unnoticed and were not disclosed.The 5.5 version (0064593001) was certified on November 27, 2002 and is positioned on the CGC census at the median grade. The original 5.0 (0055242008) is no longer searchable in the certification database.Certification/Resale Provenance:Resource Links: Sub-Mariner Comics #1 CGC VG/FN 5.0 Sub-Mariner Comics #1 CGC FN- 5.5 Images:

For some reason Triple Crown incarnations are really facinating. Probably because of that try, try, try again, year after year, effort. All Star Comics #43 CGC 8.0 All Star Comics #43 CGC 8.5 All Star Comics #43 CGC 9.2 LewisWayne Gallery

This next case study spotlights a particular surface area condition commonly called "cover transparency". Characteristically apparent in older books with light colored surface areas, it is best defined as being able to see the printing on the inside of the comic from the outside cover surface.I have documented numerous examples of original books displaying cover transparency, only to have the condition removed from the subsequent version as a result of some apparent treatment technique. More often than not, the transparent feature is replaced with solid, vibrant color and the book's aged personality gives way to a manufactured newsstand appearance. I could be wrong, but to me, this is an clear indication that work has been performed. *************** BLACKHAWK #11 Sparsely described in its 2002 auction debut, this Very Fine copy of Blackhawk #11 realized a price 30% less than its pre-auction estimate.Thirteen months later, the same book reappeared at auction in Near Mint condition following a clean and press makeover. With a description denoting the highest certified grade to date, the manipulated version surpassed its original purchase price by 300%.The 9.4 version (0064423007) is not searchable in the CGC certification database. It has been zeroed out. The book has been resubmitted and carries a third serial number.Two copies of Blackhawk #11 are ranked at the 9.4 position on the CGC census. They are the Mile High and Big Apple pedigree copies. One lone copy sits atop the census; that particular book is in Near Mint+ (9.6) condition. Certification/Resale Provenance:Resource Links: Blackhawk #11 (8.0) Blackhawk #11 (9.4) Images:

In the previous post I tried to provide a representation of cleaning. Perhaps I missed the mark and the example was, at best, inconclusive. However that may be, it is my belief that the following specimen provides clear confirmation of manipulation. *************** Blond Phantom #13 Purchased as a Very Fine+ copy in the summer of 2002, this 1947 Timely had an unmistakable marking within, and to the lower right, of the title caption. Additionally, the presence of soiling and minor creasing was visually apparent on the back cover surface area.Six-months later the copy re-emerge as a Near Mint- and bearing a new serial number. Appearing to be cleaned and pressed, the copy was advertised in part as having "very little in the way of defects" and promoting a back cover that was "clean and white". The obvious pencil marking in the title area was removed, with just the slightest of horizontal lines remaining in the red colored area. The 9.2 version (0044759004) is currently ranked as number two on the CGC census. The original 8.5 version (0048090015) is no longer available in the verification database.Certification/Resale Provenance:Resource Links: Blonde Phantom #13 (8.5) Blonde Phantom #13 (9.2) Images:

Here's another treatment sample which may further illustrate indiscriminate erasure fueled by a lust for short-term profit.In this particular case, the example in reference exhibited a resemblance to other books that may have originated from the personal collection of comic book mail order catalogue pioneer William J. Thailing. Unfortunately, the unwarranted manipulation led to the removal of this book's unique personality, and the validation of its genealogy will forever go unchecked.*************** Thrilling Comics #1 Displaying white pages and a distinctive black "S" grease pencil mark in the book's logo area, this Very Fine copy of Thrilling Comics #1 sold just under its pre-auction estimate. Seven-months later the book resurfaced, this time without the unique "S" and re-graded as a Near Mint -. Also missing from the copy was a light "25.00" pencil mark which was unobtrusively located in the upper left-hand corner of the original back cover surface. The 9.2 manufactured version of Thrilling Comics #1 is currently ranked number one on the CGC census dated August 21, 2006. The 8.0 original has been removed from the certification database.Certification/Resale Provenance:Resource Links: Bill Thailing "S" Collection Thrilling Comics #1 (8.0) Thrilling Comics #1 (9.2) Images:

The path this one takes is interesting...July 2005 Shadow Comics V9#2 CGC VF 8.0 Off-white to white pages. "This is currently the highest grade awarded by CGC for this issue." March 2006 Shadow Comics V9#2 CGC NM 9.4 on Ebay, reserve not met.May 2006 goes back to Heritage Shadow Comics V9#2 CGC NM 9.4Of course the 8.0 is no longer in the census.

This next case is pretty interesting in and of itself. Not because the issue is currently ranked #32 on Overstreet's list of most valuable Golden Age books, but rather for the reason that it presents some interesting points of study between the graded versions.*************** All Winners Comics #1 Described as a "dazzling copy" in its March 6, 2003 auction debut, this CGC graded 8.5 Golden Age key sported a clearly identifiable dust shadow along its left front-cover edge.Appearing again seven months later, the 1941 Timely was re-graded as a 9.2 and branded with a description befitting its newly certified grade. With special emphasis on its census topping position, the copy achieved a purchase price 180% greater than its original close. The clarity and depth of the dust shadow was somehow minimized.The 9.2 version of All Winners Comics #1 is currently raked number two on the CGC census. It was eclipsed by the 9.6 Chicago Pedigree copy on March 4, 2005. The original 8.5 copy is no longer searchable in the Collectors' Society certification database. In my opinion this piece has been cleaned and pressed.Perhaps the cleaning was by dry technique with specific attention to the oxidation shadow and the soiled areas of the spine and lower-rear cover. It is interesting to note the marked change in the consistency of the shadow within the yellow region above the cape. In contrast, there is little, if any, change to the red cape and yellow portion directly beneath it. The area below Sub-Mariner's arm remains unchanged. The mitigation of spine creases and the slight staple movement may provide visual clues to pressing. In addition, the realignment of the cover wrap, evident in the lower-left corner of the back cover, suggests this type of treatment. Weather the book was pressed intact or disassembled is debatable.Certification/Resale Provenance:Resource Links: All Winners Comics #1 (8.5) All Winners Comics #1 (9.2) Images:

[FFB]

Lou_fine can say what he wants, but I know for a fact that NDP was going on to a significant degree before CGC.

 

Says who? And could you be more specific on what passed for "significant" compared to the NDP activities going on today?

 

Jim

 

So say "my sources."

 

What constitutes a "significant degree"?

 

Are your sources dealers, collectors or both?

 

How many sources?

 

What time frame are we talking about?

 

Jim's right -- there IS an echo in here!

 

Not really Scott, you haven't answered the questions I've asked. You only provided a general response to Jim. I am not asking for you to name your sources or even provide identifying information, but your degree of "significant" may be entirely different from the rest of us. I'm just trying to get a better handle of why you believe intact pressing alone (not coupled with other accepted restorative techniques) was not primarily an outgrowth of CGC.

 

I think it's fair to say the the practice became more widespread once high CGC grades on non-pedigree books started getting pedigree-type multiples. No dispute there. But to say that pressing wasn't happening to a significant degree (meaning more than just the occasional book) before CGC is wrong.

[Filter81]

I don't know about All Winners, but for those here who think I'm out to defend Heritage for the sake of defending Heritage, when Filter first talked about the back cover-less Batman 1 he bought from Heritage, I urged him to take legal action against Heritage. In fact, I suggested he contact Esquire if he didn't know of any other lawyers. I think I used the term "slam dunk" in assessing his chances of successfully recovering from Heritage. He has never explained why he has not pursued any course of action, particularly given his unhappy history with Heritage.

 

At the time I received the book, I happened to know a dealer who was looking for a Batman 1. I was able to sell the book, described correctly, at a loss of roughly $1000. The reason I decided not to get a lawyer and file a lawsuit was because by the time I paid court costs and hired a lawyer I thought there was every chance I'd wind up spending more than $1000 anyway. Plus I figured a lawsuit against a party in texas would take up a lot of my time that could've been better spent elsewhere. (Basically a lawsuit didn't seem cost-effective) So I figured the best course of action would be to suck it up, take the loss, and move on.

[MasterChief]

No doubt ... and it sounds like MasterChief is locked and loaded and ready to keep 'em coming when the time is right ...

 

Unfortunately, I do not have posts ready to go at the push of a button. Wish I had. They take time to put together both textually and graphically, and the work is usually done when the wife's working or the boss isn't looking. So please bear with me.

 

That said, one thing I don't have to do at this stage, which can be quite laborious, is the investigative research. For the most part that work is complete – at least for the books I have currently catalogued.

 

If I could say just one thing: Anyone who believes the examples provided here within are just anomalies, or could not be representative of a population is, in my opinion, simply naïve or just plain uninformed. (That is a generalized statement intended for the audience as a whole. It is not aimed at any one person in particular.)

 

Those that thrive on due diligence and are in the business of conducting personalized research will bare witness, either publicly or privately, to these treatment events. It has happened, is currently happening, and will continue to happen until such time as change occurs.

 

In the mean time, I will continue with my study. Moreover, I will post more examples as time and the public demand signal permits...

 

--MC

[shadroch]

You bought a Batman #1 that was supposed to be intact,found out it had a xerox cover and managed to sell the book for a net loss of only $1,000?

There is something peculiar about this.Did the other bidders somehow know this book had a fake cover and didn't bid on it?Most books on Heritage sell well above market,so to buy a book find its restored and not lose much selling to a dealer is very unusual,isn't it?

I'm not challenging your version of how this happened,just expressing shock that it happened thus.

[Filter81]

The book was in low grade to begin with so I got it pretty cheap. Had it been a $9000 or $10,000 copy that this had happened with, the outcome would have been very different.

[Bullet123]

No doubt ... and it sounds like MasterChief is locked and loaded and ready to keep 'em coming when the time is right ...

 

Unfortunately, I do not have posts ready to go at the push of a button. Wish I had. They take time to put together both textually and graphically, and the work is usually done when the wife's working or the boss isn't looking. So please bear with me.

 

That said, one thing I don't have to do at this stage, which can be quite laborious, is the investigative research. For the most part that work is complete – at least for the books I have currently catalogued.

 

If I could say just one thing: Anyone who believes the examples provided here within are just anomalies, or could not be representative of a population is, in my opinion, simply naïve or just plain uninformed. (That is a generalized statement intended for the audience as a whole. It is not aimed at any one person in particular.)

 

While I do not think the examples you have shown are anywhere the whole iceberg, you make a statement that sounds like 1 out of 10 books out there have had this done to them. Hreitage alone has had over 150,000 auctions for books and you have come up with less than 10 concrete examples. Even if I give you the benefit and say that you have found 50 and just have not had time to post them, that still represents less than 3 one thousandths of 1 percent. So how can you make this statement?

 

Those that thrive on due diligence and are in the business of conducting personalized research will bare witness, either publicly or privately, to these treatment events. It has happened, is currently happening, and will continue to happen until such time as change occurs.

 

In the mean time, I will continue with my study. Moreover, I will post more examples as time and the public demand signal permits...

 

--MC

[The Troll King]

I am also interested in knowing how much of the inventory is owned by Heritage outright. I thought I recalled seeing something relating to ownership in the TX regs but need to check. I will say in all fairness that whenever I asked Heritage about the ownership of certain lots they did respond whether they owned it or if it was consigned.

 

I'd have to double check as well as I can't be certain without looking. I can tell you that it is not uncommon either for an item that is getting weak interest in a live auction to be pulled altogether even it there are bids!

 

Generally what I've witnessed on many occassions is an auctioneer will get frustrated and scoff at the offers being set forth and will pull the item altogether only to try and auction it again at a later date.

 

Some nights you just have a tough crowd!

 

I use to attend 2-3 major auctions per week (a lot of my old toy/collectible inventory would come from them) and sometimes the crowd can just be downright vicious!

 

Texas definitely has tons of legislation in place to protect auctioneers and consignors concerning all of these things.

 

I'm not usually a "my state is better than your state kinda person" but being in the business that I'm in now, because Texas is so "procedure oriented" it really is better than what a lot of the other states have. Texas leaves no "grey" area. You either follow the procedures in place, or you don't operate here.

[Bullet123]

The book was in low grade to begin with so I got it pretty cheap. Had it been a $9000 or $10,000 copy that this had happened with, the outcome would have been very different.

 

I do not have the ability at work to post the link because I cant see the URL but I have seen this book. The front cover was brittle and tattered and the back cover looked like a 9.8 modern. While it did not say it in the auction description, it was obvious that there was something amiss with the back cover. Are you trying to say you thought that back cover was original?

[MasterChief]

While I do not think the examples you have shown are anywhere the whole iceberg, you make a statement that sounds like 1 out of 10 books out there have had this done to them. Hreitage alone has had over 150,000 auctions for books and you have come up with less than 10 concrete examples. Even if I give you the benefit and say that you have found 50 and just have not had time to post them, that still represents less than 3 one thousandths of 1 percent. So how can you make this statement?

 

I just said "a population". I was not referring to a particular venue's population. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Aman619]

The book was in low grade to begin with so I got it pretty cheap. Had it been a $9000 or $10,000 copy that this had happened with, the outcome would have been very different.

 

I do not have the ability at work to post the link because I cant see the URL but I have seen this book. The front cover was brittle and tattered and the back cover looked like a 9.8 modern. While it did not say it in the auction description, it was obvious that there was something amiss with the back cover. Are you trying to say you thought that back cover was original?

 

it happens. Ive bid on an dwon items that I didnt look particularly closely at. And before you say "Yeah, but this was batman#1!!" Well, Im asuming somewhere in Filter's 2 million dollars of Heritages wins there were far more valuable books than the obviously low grade copy he was bidding on for whatever reason.

 

personally Im still staggered by the 2 million humger! Just how much has Heritage sold altogether in comics so far?? Is 2 mill 10% of that? 1%? anyone know The website says "521 million sold to date" but thats ALL their auctions combined.

[FFB]

The book was in low grade to begin with so I got it pretty cheap. Had it been a $9000 or $10,000 copy that this had happened with, the outcome would have been very different.

 

I do not have the ability at work to post the link because I cant see the URL but I have seen this book. The front cover was brittle and tattered and the back cover looked like a 9.8 modern. While it did not say it in the auction description, it was obvious that there was something amiss with the back cover. Are you trying to say you thought that back cover was original?

 

it happens. Ive bid on an dwon items that I didnt look particularly closely at. And before you say "Yeah, but this was batman#1!!" Well, Im asuming somewhere in Filter's 2 million dollars of Heritages wins there were far more valuable books than the obviously low grade copy he was bidding on for whatever reason.

 

personally Im still staggered by the 2 million humger! Just how much has Heritage sold altogether in comics so far?? Is 2 mill 10% of that? 1%? anyone know The website says "521 million sold to date" but thats ALL their auctions combined.

 

Here's the book. The replaced/Xerox back cover is pretty obvious (especially in the large scan), although it isn't identified as a Xerox copy in the text of the auction description.

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

While I do not think the examples you have shown are anywhere the whole iceberg, you make a statement that sounds like 1 out of 10 books out there have had this done to them. Hreitage alone has had over 150,000 auctions for books and you have come up with less than 10 concrete examples. Even if I give you the benefit and say that you have found 50 and just have not had time to post them, that still represents less than 3 one thousandths of 1 percent. So how can you make this statement?

 

So at what percentage does it start to bother you? 5%? 10%?

 

I guess it doesn't matter if you look at it that way, with all the low grade and post 70s/under $100 material they sell, the percentages of cracked/"massaged"/resubbed GA & SA books will always be minimal against the backdrop of total sales.

 

Personally, I think the only way people like you or Tim will ever come around is if you've found the $10k+ book you just purchased through Heritage has a long, sordid, and verifiable history or subs and resubs. Maybe then you'll feel differently.