Terrorist Suspect a Comic Book Fan....

[the blob]

eff organized religion!!! it's the root of all evil.

 

I find this comment quite offenssive and narrow minded.

and the scary part is.....it's true to a point

 

Many millions of people were murdered in the last century by dictators who were non-religious -- Stalin, Mao, Hitler (whatever religion the nazis purported to have was a farce), Pol Pot, etc. Lately it has been religious fanatics, but that wasn't the concern 50 years ago.

[He11blazer]

eff organized religion!!! it's the root of all evil.

 

I find this comment quite offenssive and narrow minded.

and the scary part is.....it's true to a point

 

Many millions of people were murdered in the last century by dictators who were non-religious -- Stalin, Mao, Hitler (whatever religion the nazis purported to have was a farce), Pol Pot, etc. Lately it has been religious fanatics, but that wasn't the concern 50 years ago.

 

Stalin and Mao were atheists, but they never killed anyone or carried out any evil deed 'in the name of atheism'. Atheism was never a motivating or excusing factor in any of their actions. Religion on the other hand is the number one excusing or motivating factor in large scale atrocities throughout history and the present day.

 

Hitler's private views on religion are disputed, as he made contradictory statements in public and in private. He certainly appreciated the ways he could use religion though.

 

"Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith ...we need believing people."

 

- Adolf Hitler, April 26, 1933, speech made during negotiations leading to the Nazi-Vatican Concordant

 

PS No way am I getting into a religion vs atheism flamewar here. It IS possible to discuss civilly, but when one side is calling the other side evil... forget it.

[VintageComics]

 

PS No way am I getting into a religion vs atheism flamewar here. It IS possible to discuss civilly, but when one side is calling the other side evil... forget it.

 

I'll discuss it with you.

 

[He11blazer]

...

 

To maybe save the thread and get it back on topic:

 

Trooper what I can't shake though is the feeling of being duped with some of these. The Chicago arrest and the Dallas arrest were people that were set-up into believing that they were being given the devices and means of destruction.

 

What's bugging me is that I keep asking myself, had these people not have been set up with this "sting" operation and given the means and measure, would they have acted or acted out in the way that they did? Would they have sought out these things on their own and/or were they coerced into these things? The answer to this question scares the hell out of me.

 

I believe it is akin to these "To Catch a Predator" Dateline episodes. People have to understand, very very few prosecutions actually take place due to those set-up situations.

 

That disturbs me too. Whilst the guy had to be pretty badly messed up to go through with the plan, it really REALLY helps when you've got people telling you it's good, here's the explosives, you're doing a wonderful thing, just push the button...

 

It's not difficult to find malcontents who will go along with such things given the support network, supplies, technical expertise and encouragment. Without all this they'd quietly live out their days snarling at the TV. It's the people who come up with the plans, gather the personnel/supplies etc, and make it happen that you need to catch.

 

 

You need to catch anyone and everyone who would commit a crime like this.

 

An industrious terrorist and a lazy terrorist are both still terrorists.

 

What you don't seem to understand is that both people they caught WERE ACTIVELY SEEKING OUT OTHER TERRORIST GROUPS TO JOIN AND BOMBS TO USE to kill large amounts of people. If the FBI didn't find them first there is no shortage of criminals in this country that would have given them what they wanted, and no shortage of terrorist groups looking for new recruits.

 

Would you be just as disturbed if someone was looking for an illegal sniper rifle to assassinate someone and instead they found an undercover FBI agent who sold them a gun that would not fire, and then waited for him to get in position and attempt the shot and arrest him after it failed? The difference is HUGE. If he would have been arrested after purchasing the weapon only he might face 5 years in federal prison, by giving him a fake and letting him try to carry out his plan you have illegal weapons, attempted capital murder, and perhaps attempted terrorist act charges. That's more along the lines of 25 years in jail. This is some of the smartest and tactically efficient police work I have ever seen.

 

It has the added benefit of slowing down all the other would-be bombers who now don't know if their supplier is really undercover. The fear is on the other foot, so to speak.

 

Neither of these guys were quietly grumbling in front of a television. Neither of these guys was a harmless but easily swayed person. I don't know why you'd think these were innocent people after what they tried to do. They wanted a bomb and they wanted it to kill innocent people. What they got was a fake bomb, thank God, and they used their own free will to decide what to do with it. Each chose to push the button.

 

If it wasn't for the FBI they might have found those terror groups they were looking for and we'd be talking about hundreds of dead people right now instead of 2 criminals in jail for attempting terrorist acts. That disturbs me far more than the police work that caught them.

 

Sure sure I agree with pretty much everything you just said, but I still feel uncomfortable with encouraging someone to incriminate themselves.

 

There's a guy in my hometown who I've vaguely known for many years. He has some mental problems and was known as a bit of an eccentric character on the streets back in the 80s. He's completely sweet and harmless, and I'd guess has an IQ around 60. Anyway, at the last European election he voted for the BNP (British National Party - evil, racist thugs). I heard this from him and was shocked, and demanded he explain himself. He said he'd been approached in the pub by some guys who had persuaded him it was the right thing to do, although he couldn't really remember their arguments now I set him straight, made sure he understood what he'd voted for, but it was too late for that election.

 

Point being, if you really wanted to arrest 'everyone who would commit a crime like this', you'd be rounding up the mentally handicapped til doomsday. The mentally weak can easily be encouraged to do just about anything. You need to catch the ones doing the encouraging.

 

But anyway, not really arguing here, just stating my discomfort at the scenario even though I can see great potential value in it.

[He11blazer]

 

PS No way am I getting into a religion vs atheism flamewar here. It IS possible to discuss civilly, but when one side is calling the other side evil... forget it.

 

I'll discuss it with you.

 

 

I thoroughly enjoyed the last thread we had on it (thumbs u

[Tomega]

I dont go around saying eff non-religion/agnostic/atheist/etc.

 

That's because non-religion/agnostic/atheists as a group are generally not cutting peoples heads off, mass plotting to kill innocent people, preventing gays from marrying, infringing on womans rights, bombing abortion clinics, creating holy wars, dividing families, martyr killing, telling you are going to hell because you are gay or "living in sin," committing honor killings, committing rape as "punishment," - the list goes on.

 

 

 

The basic tenet of nearly all religions is to love your fellow man - that is unless he is of a different religion/faith then the gloves come off.

 

As for this comment, let me clarify that I am not religious in any way, shape, or form. I've questioned the existence of God since the first time I was ever told about him. I'm the last person in the world that would defend religion.

 

If you think that all that's wrong with the world revolves around religion, you're being purposefully obtuse. Evil is not something that was invented one day to add spice to the Bible. There's far more non-religious evil out there than you're giving credit. I'd argue that the vast majority of problems in society involve the non-religious.

 

The only thing that religion has, that causes narrow minded people such as yourself, to point the finger at them is 1) It consists of organized groups, and 2) They are hypocritical in that they damn people for things they do for the "greater good."

 

Next time you feel the need to lash out at religion, you might want to open your eyes and look at everything else as a whole, because there's plenty of blame to pass around for everyone. You just want to focus on religion because you don't believe in it and you're driven by an agenda to alienate it.

 

 

 

Narrow minded, obtuse people such as yourself generally post like above so I will keep it simple so you can follow. First, I never wrote that religion was evil in the above post ( I agreed with Supa so maybe you want to reply to him) - that is just something you decided to put in from someone else's post to suit your own myopic interpretation. Next time you feel to lash out at someone's post you might want to get your facts straight otherwise it just makes you look foolish.

 

Everything I wrote above absolutely is committed in the name of religion - whether it is masking for something else or to purport another agenda. If you think otherwise, that is just ignorance. Most of the major religions were created to control the masses and maintain a power base - whether it was the Caesars, the Kings and Queens or the mullahs of today. All the same- the wheels on bus go round and round.

 

Thread to be locked I am sure.

 

No. Your post was a list of, I assume, what you consider to be crimes that are on the fringe of rational human behavior, and you are trying to say that the only people that could do such a thing are people involved in a religion. I was merely pointing out the flaw in your reasoning because it is just something you shot from your hip.

 

Let's analyze it so you understand where you're incorrect, because MOST of these are not exclusive to religious zealots...

 

cutting peoples heads off, - This seems to be quite popular among the sexual predators of the world. Yes but they do not have a book condoning it because the victims were infidels. what you speak of is murder, it is not murder in Islam if it is an "infidel."

mass plotting to kill innocent people, - School shootings, mass murderers, this is not just popular amongst the Bible thumpers. How about crashing planes into buildings, is that more popular with the bible thumpers?

preventing gays from marrying, - I'm not religious and will vote no on this one. As will the majority of America regardless of religious background.

Never under estimate the prejudice of America

 

infringing on womans rights, - Such as the drunk father that beats his wife and keeps her from socializing. I'd argue the majority have no religion.

You confusing crime with a condoned practice - there is a vast difference. It is not okay in our society to beat your wife, it is okay under sharia and the Koran to beat your wife for a lot of nonsense reasons

 

 

bombing abortion clinics, - I'll give you that one.

creating holy wars, - Two for you.

dividing families, - Most religious people I know are very much family oriented. Most family problems have nothing to do with religion, so I have no idea where you got this from. Ever try to marry a Jew or Muslim being Catholic ?

martyr killing, - Three for you.

telling you are going to hell because you are gay or "living in sin," - Four for you.

committing honor killings, - Man walks in on his wife and his best friend. Man kills both. I doubt this is only done by people of the cloth.

 

Again , you confusing crime with condoned practice - there is a vast difference. Legally honor killing your daughter because she was holding the hand of another boy ( or whatever) is not the same as the crime you mentioned above.

 

 

committing rape as "punishment," - Sexual predators again. What religion do they belong to?

 

Again , you confusing crime with condoned practice - there is a vast difference.

 

So your list is just something you threw out there to devalue religion and the people involved in it. For the most part they are not things that are predominantly isolated to people of religion.

 

I agree that there are wacko religious loony toons that do extreme things in the name of their God. But in no way are they the only loony toons in the world. There are some wacky non-religious ding dongs that are equally dangerous. Religious people are generally pretty passive, it's just the extremists that are the problem, but you can be an extremist and have absolutely no religion.

 

The problems of the world are not because of God. They are because people can't agree to disagree. That's something that will never change. No matter how badly you or anyone else wants peace, love, and rainbows, it will never happen because people are people. If you want someone to MAKE them be nice to each other, then you're not any better than what you're complaining about in the first place.

 

 

Fair enough to a point , I of course realize there are plenty of loons and evil in the world. It is the hypocrisy of most religions that is most bothersome- they all preach love thy neighbor as long as they are the same. If they are different, that is when it all goes to c_rap. That happens with a lot of the passive ones too - you cannot marry my daughter because you are not jewish, you do not have aright to marry because you are gay etc.. really it all comes down to the human nature for avarice and power. You speak of extremists like they are the minority - there are whole countries of millions of people that live by by some pretty extreme laws of sharia - their treatment of woman, gays and other religions is despicable.

 

Again, it all comes down to avarice, control and power. Whether it is religion or some other name.

[DiceX]

It is the hypocrisy of most religions that is most bothersome- they all preach love thy neighbor as long as they are the same.

 

That's what I'm trying to say, but religion isn't the problem, it's when you add the human factor where they want everyone to be the same as themselves. This is not exclusive to religion. Non-religious people have the same desire and passion for this as the religious.

 

The problem is people and their inability to get along with someone who is different than they are. There are extremists on both sides of religion with the same problem. I'm not religious but I don't have a problem with anyone that has faith. Unfortunately, I'm in an overwhelming minority.

 

With that, I'll offer the olive branch.

 

 

[the blob]

Stalin and Mao were atheists, but they never killed anyone or carried out any evil deed 'in the name of atheism'. Atheism was never a motivating or excusing factor in any of their actions.

-------------

 

I'm pretty sure both murdered and otherwise suppressed religious types in their countries. Was it in "the name of atheism" or just to root out elements of society that might not go along with their political views? Maybe you want to debate that, I dunno, Marxists hate religion and if they're Marxists who have no problem murdering, they'll murder religious types.

 

Take religion out of it and we'd focus on killing eachother because of racial/ethinic/national/political/sexual/language differences.

 

In sum: There are all sorts of wack jobs. Some do it because of religion, some do not. Some of them rise to positions of power. Some of them might not, but modern technology makes it pretty easy for one wackjob to harm a lot of people. The World can be a scarey place.

[Dark Prime 0]

religion, is just a buiness in the end, look at all the money it raises and other such things

 

"What profit has not that fable of Christ brought us!" Pope Leo X

 

The way I see it, people are free to believe whatever they want.

 

They are free to believe i'm going to some hell eventually. And i'm free to believe they're .

Pope Leo X, yeah I have heard of him, Now please don’t quote me on this but, I heard that Pope Leo X is a seldom used alias name of a successful science fiction writer. He suppossedly grew up in a Religious cult, in the Southern part of Colorado. His father was the main figure head of the then “United Benevolent Church of the Unified Trinity” ,a sect considered extremist by many because of it’s unsubstanciated belief that Jesus, Satan and the Demon Malakia Menku are all united in spirit… also the fact that they did many live animal offerings, made them susceptible to unrelentless scrutiny from those who had minor dealings with cult members. As Pope Leo X became a teenager, people within the organization began to fear him, as a result of his ramblings of how he would one day write novels about evil happenings and gruesome deaths, the more time passed, the more UBCotUT members became increasingly afraid of him, or what he might have the potential of doing. By the age of 19, eight different unfinished books were found by one of the pastors, the books were so explicit and macabre, that fellow ‘brothers’ threatened to start a separate community if he did not leave…they were suppossedly specifically afraid of an unfinished manuscript by the name of “IT, the Killer clown within us all”… that day , his father, drove him to the edge of town, gave him 600$ and, told him: “Stephen, we all have a calling in life, find yours and be the King of your destiny..” he hugged him and walked away with a lump in his throat. Some say that Stephen went to school to later become a writer, taking the name (as a tribute to what his father had told himthat day), Steven King. That’s what I heard..

 

nice story.....wither true or not, still a nice story (doubt it's true though)

[ThreeSeas]

In regards to the original subject of this thread.

 

I remember reading a news article during the Timothy McVay(sp) trial (Oklahoma Federal Building Bomber) that he read and collected comics before he joined the service. At reading that I had thought to myself ", they are going to try to tie his terrorist activities to to reading comic books" but luckily that did not happen.

 

 

[Unca Ben]

eff organized religion!!! it's the root of all evil.

 

I find this comment quite offenssive and narrow minded.

I agree. Saying organized religions are evil because of the actions of a few, is like saying all scientists are evil because of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

[Unca Ben]

I dont go around saying eff non-religion/agnostic/atheist/etc.

 

That's because non-religion/agnostic/atheists as a group are generally not cutting peoples heads off, mass plotting to kill innocent people, preventing gays from marrying, infringing on womans rights, bombing abortion clinics, creating holy wars, dividing families, martyr killing, telling you are going to hell because you are gay or "living in sin," committing honor killings, committing rape as "punishment," - the list goes on.

 

 

 

The basic tenet of nearly all religions is to love your fellow man - that is unless he is of a different religion/faith then the gloves come off.

Wasn't Mao Zedong (Mao T'se Tung) an atheist? Seems like there's plenty of blame to go around.

[Unca Ben]

Yes, it really sucked when there was prayer in school. All the violence and drugs.

 

Nowadays schools are drug free non-violent paradises.

[Chespirito]

religion, is just a buiness in the end, look at all the money it raises and other such things

 

"What profit has not that fable of Christ brought us!" Pope Leo X

 

The way I see it, people are free to believe whatever they want.

 

They are free to believe i'm going to some hell eventually. And i'm free to believe they're .

Pope Leo X, yeah I have heard of him, Now please don’t quote me on this but, I heard that Pope Leo X is a seldom used alias name of a successful science fiction writer. He suppossedly grew up in a Religious cult, in the Southern part of Colorado. His father was the main figure head of the then “United Benevolent Church of the Unified Trinity” ,a sect considered extremist by many because of it’s unsubstanciated belief that Jesus, Satan and the Demon Malakia Menku are all united in spirit… also the fact that they did many live animal offerings, made them susceptible to unrelentless scrutiny from those who had minor dealings with cult members. As Pope Leo X became a teenager, people within the organization began to fear him, as a result of his ramblings of how he would one day write novels about evil happenings and gruesome deaths, the more time passed, the more UBCotUT members became increasingly afraid of him, or what he might have the potential of doing. By the age of 19, eight different unfinished books were found by one of the pastors, the books were so explicit and macabre, that fellow ‘brothers’ threatened to start a separate community if he did not leave…they were suppossedly specifically afraid of an unfinished manuscript by the name of “IT, the Killer clown within us all”… that day , his father, drove him to the edge of town, gave him 600$ and, told him: “Stephen, we all have a calling in life, find yours and be the King of your destiny..” he hugged him and walked away with a lump in his throat. Some say that Stephen went to school to later become a writer, taking the name (as a tribute to what his father had told himthat day), Steven King. That’s what I heard..

 

nice story.....wither true or not, still a nice story (doubt it's true though)

It's true ..him and Steve Ditko use to Ride together in the Hell's Angels for a couple of years, and that's when he told him the story. Ditko did his initiation one night,suppossedly the night that Steve D had had just about enough of the comic world..he took him under his wing for about 8 months, until King had his share of the fast life and decided to pay his babysitter the from the last of some gambling money he had collected and moved on to West Virgina with his baby's momma, Jackie "The Deviless" Johnson (she later changed her name), that's when people say he bagan writing seriously..

[Tomega]

It is the hypocrisy of most religions that is most bothersome- they all preach love thy neighbor as long as they are the same.

 

That's what I'm trying to say, but religion isn't the problem, it's when you add the human factor where they want everyone to be the same as themselves. This is not exclusive to religion. Non-religious people have the same desire and passion for this as the religious.

 

The problem is people and their inability to get along with someone who is different than they are. There are extremists on both sides of religion with the same problem. I'm not religious but I don't have a problem with anyone that has faith. Unfortunately, I'm in an overwhelming minority.

 

With that, I'll offer the olive branch.

 

 

 

I agree that some of the problem is people not getting along with those who are different but some religions are built upon this and are inherently prejudiced - the Koran is filled full such nonsense and it goes beyond the basic prejudices of man. It does not matter whether you are white, black, etc - if you are not Muslim in some countries then you are second class or worse. If you are woman, it can be even worse. People say that this is in extreme cases but at what point do they become part of the norm - there are hundreds of millions of people that live in modern countries that believe in this barbarous side of this religion.

 

 

It sounds like we are pretty close in some ideals. I do not care what faith , color, religion or sexual orientation you are until you are prejudiced, extrementist, divisive or try to push your beliefs on me or others. That does not mean I have to respect some aspects of religions or some religions as a whole. Before anyone says I should - ask yourself if you have the same respect for Raelians, Rastafarians, Satanists , The Prince Phillips Movement ect. It should make no difference if your stance is that I should respect them.

 

No olive branch needed, just a passionate discussion. But if it happens again, I may have to chop your head off so that I can get my 72 virgins in heaven.

[DiceX]

It is the hypocrisy of most religions that is most bothersome- they all preach love thy neighbor as long as they are the same.

 

That's what I'm trying to say, but religion isn't the problem, it's when you add the human factor where they want everyone to be the same as themselves. This is not exclusive to religion. Non-religious people have the same desire and passion for this as the religious.

 

The problem is people and their inability to get along with someone who is different than they are. There are extremists on both sides of religion with the same problem. I'm not religious but I don't have a problem with anyone that has faith. Unfortunately, I'm in an overwhelming minority.

 

With that, I'll offer the olive branch.

 

 

 

I agree that some of the problem is people not getting along with those who are different but some religions are built upon this and are inherently prejudiced - the Koran is filled full such nonsense and it goes beyond the basic prejudices of man. It does not matter whether you are white, black, etc - if you are not Muslim in some countries then you are second class or worse. If you are woman, it can be even worse. People say that this is in extreme cases but at what point do they become part of the norm - there are hundreds of millions of people that live in modern countries that believe in this barbarous side of this religion.

 

 

It sounds like we are pretty close in some ideals. I do not care what faith , color, religion or sexual orientation you are until you are prejudiced, extrementist, divisive or try to push your beliefs on me or others. That does not mean I have to respect some aspects of religions or some religions as a whole. Before anyone says I should - ask yourself if you have the same respect for Raelians, Rastafarians, Satanists , The Prince Phillips Movement ect. It should make no difference if your stance is that I should respect them.

 

No olive branch needed, just a passionate discussion. But if it happens again, I may have to chop your head off so that I can get my 72 virgins in heaven.

 

Ever wonder what the draw is after you finish off #72?

Think about it. You have eternity, and only 72 virgins.

Even if you only deflowered one virgin every billion years, you have to go from year 71,000,000,000 til forever without a prize for your trouble.

 

It just seems like it's not so special when you really look at it.

 

 

[Green]

I would just like to say keep up the good work Chespirito .

[Tomega]

 

 

 

Ever wonder what the draw is after you finish off #72?

Think about it. You have eternity, and only 72 virgins.

Even if you only deflowered one virgin every billion years, you have to go from year 71,000,000,000 til forever without a prize for your trouble.

 

It just seems like it's not so special when you really look at it.

 

 

 

Although there is conflicting numbers - how is they settled on one number to begin with? Not 75 or 100 - no 72 seems just right.

The whole thing is just bizarre.

[Chespirito]

 

 

 

Ever wonder what the draw is after you finish off #72?

Think about it. You have eternity, and only 72 virgins.

Even if you only deflowered one virgin every billion years, you have to go from year 71,000,000,000 til forever without a prize for your trouble.

 

It just seems like it's not so special when you really look at it.

 

 

 

Although there is conflicting numbers - how is they settled on one number to begin with? Not 75 or 100 - no 72 seems just right.

The whole thing is just bizarre.

Let me just give a tid bit of information, I was told about yesterday. The number 72, came from the Grandson of the prophet Mohamed, when he was ambushed by a force of 3000 syrian warriors, he was with another 71 followers, 72 of them died that day. In the 1970's when the whole Iran terrorist movement was in full effect, that was when they (Extremists), from a speech by the then Sha, came up with the 72 virgins concept... true story..look it up..

[DiceX]

So why can you only bake 24 blackbirds in a pie?

What if you used a deep dish crust?