Page Quality of Comics in CGC Slabs in the Long Term?

[14 of spades]

(thumbs u

 

I am more tha happy with my slabs. the envioroment in which the books are more important than the case/paper they are kept. Al good intentions can be ruined by a less that perfect environment for keeping books.

 

This is true.

 

My position is the original owner conditions that managed to preserve books for the last 40 years are their optimal environment. When you remove books from this environment, they are in less than ideal conditions. Even if this isn't the case, the OO environment is known, and managed to preserve the books for 40 years. When books are removed and sent around the country, the conditions are no longer known.

 

Handling causes wear and degradation.

 

Absolutely - so share with us your thoughts on why you feel newspapers are better than CGC slabs. And then go and ask three paper experts on whether they agree with your assumptions. Unless you feel the current knowledge in paper conservation/preservation is wrong and you are the new Pythagoras.

 

Are the Curators now in better shape to persist into perpetuity now they have been removed from the museum and encased in slabs and sold on Ebay? My position is that they are not.

[Forbush-Man]

Are the Curators now in better shape to persist into perpetuity now they have been removed from the museum and encased in slabs and sold on Ebay? My position is that they are not.

 

Look at your last comment, about the curator books. This would be true of any comic, slabbed or not. The raw curators would be in the same situation. It's a matter of keeping the books in a cool, dark & dry environment. Has nothing to do with slabbed or not.

[14 of spades]

No. You more or less said that slabbing books is bad with no real proof. I gave you reasons why slabbing books is no different than putting them in mylar. Your question postulates something that can not possibly be proven or disproven. Tell you what, we'll come back here in 40 years and discuss it then. (thumbs u

 

Where did I say slabbing books was bad? What proof did I give?

 

Umm, right here.

 

For collections that come out of the woodwork (Vancouver comes to mind), I think slabbing them basically ends any guarantee that they will maintain their quality as time goes forward.

 

Slabbing therefore, ruins these books.

 

It is not the slab that might ruin it. It would be the less than ideal suroundings.

 

 

Perhaps yours are a better choice of words. Vancouver was discovered in like 2004 (?). There was 9.8 supple WHITES for books printed in the 1940s.

 

My position is that however they were stored amounted to essentially optimal storage conditions. Why? Because books from the 1940s don't appear this way unless they were stored in the way the Vancouver (or insert your favorite GA pedigree here) books were.

 

Once they were removed, slabbed, and sold, there is no longer any control over their preservation. As such, there is a mechanism now for the books to deteriorate in their slabs faster than they would had they been left untouched.

[14 of spades]

Are the Curators now in better shape to persist into perpetuity now they have been removed from the museum and encased in slabs and sold on Ebay? My position is that they are not.

 

Look at your last comment, about the curator books. This would be true of any comic, slabbed or not. The raw curators would be in the same situation. It's a matter of keeping the books in a cool, dark & dry environment. Has nothing to do with slabbed or not.

 

But slabbing removes them from these ideal conditions because they are no longer in environment of the OO.

 

It puts these books at risk of less than ideal conditions.

[Forbush-Man]

Are the Curators now in better shape to persist into perpetuity now they have been removed from the museum and encased in slabs and sold on Ebay? My position is that they are not.

 

Look at your last comment, about the curator books. This would be true of any comic, slabbed or not. The raw curators would be in the same situation. It's a matter of keeping the books in a cool, dark & dry environment. Has nothing to do with slabbed or not.

 

But slabbing removes them from these ideal conditions because they are no longer in environment of the OO.

 

It puts these books at risk of less than ideal conditions.

 

That's just plain wrong. If the curators were in a safe & the temperature was a constant 65 degrees, then I get them, put them in a safe and keep the temperature at a constant 65 degrees. What about the slab has changed the conditions?!?

[Flaming_Telepath]

Once they were removed, slabbed, and sold, there is no longer any control over their preservation. As such, there is a mechanism now for the books to deteriorate in their slabs faster than they would had they been left untouched.

 

Well, yes.

 

However, wouldn't they have been even more virginal if they hadn't been put into circulation in the first place?

 

I mean, how far back do we want to take this?

[14 of spades]

Are the Curators now in better shape to persist into perpetuity now they have been removed from the museum and encased in slabs and sold on Ebay? My position is that they are not.

 

Look at your last comment, about the curator books. This would be true of any comic, slabbed or not. The raw curators would be in the same situation. It's a matter of keeping the books in a cool, dark & dry environment. Has nothing to do with slabbed or not.

 

But slabbing removes them from these ideal conditions because they are no longer in environment of the OO.

 

It puts these books at risk of less than ideal conditions.

 

That's just plain wrong. If the curators were in a safe & the temperature was a constant 65 degrees, then I get them, put them in a safe and keep the temperature at a constant 65 degrees. What about the slab has changed the conditions?!?

 

Sure. But what about your neighbor who uses his Curator as a doormat?

 

Are the Curators now in better condition around the world, or were they in better condition upon being removed from their museum?

[14 of spades]

Once they were removed, slabbed, and sold, there is no longer any control over their preservation. As such, there is a mechanism now for the books to deteriorate in their slabs faster than they would had they been left untouched.

 

Well, yes.

 

However, wouldn't they have been even more virginal if they hadn't been put into circulation in the first place?

 

I mean, how far back do we want to take this?

 

I concede this discussion has derailed somewhat and begun to take on a straw man.

[Forbush-Man]

Are the Curators now in better shape to persist into perpetuity now they have been removed from the museum and encased in slabs and sold on Ebay? My position is that they are not.

 

Look at your last comment, about the curator books. This would be true of any comic, slabbed or not. The raw curators would be in the same situation. It's a matter of keeping the books in a cool, dark & dry environment. Has nothing to do with slabbed or not.

 

But slabbing removes them from these ideal conditions because they are no longer in environment of the OO.

 

It puts these books at risk of less than ideal conditions.

 

That's just plain wrong. If the curators were in a safe & the temperature was a constant 65 degrees, then I get them, put them in a safe and keep the temperature at a constant 65 degrees. What about the slab has changed the conditions?!?

 

Sure. But what about your neighbor who uses his Curator as a doormat?

 

Are the Curators now in better condition around the world, or were they in better condition upon being removed from their museum?

 

 

Then the problem is NOT THE SLAB, BUT THE NEW OWNERS OF THE BOOKS NOT TAKING PROPER CARE OF THE BOOKS.

 

We can close this thread now.

[gpanalysis]

Are the Curators now in better shape to persist into perpetuity now they have been removed from the museum and encased in slabs and sold on Ebay? My position is that they are not.

 

Look at your last comment, about the curator books. This would be true of any comic, slabbed or not. The raw curators would be in the same situation. It's a matter of keeping the books in a cool, dark & dry environment. Has nothing to do with slabbed or not.

 

But slabbing removes them from these ideal conditions because they are no longer in environment of the OO.

 

It puts these books at risk of less than ideal conditions.

 

Ok, so I think we're getting to your main argument here (to be fair you've argued a whole lot of different topics in this thread). So, you have a concern that if I were to remove the comics from say an underground chamber these books had been kept in for year (wrapped in newspaper, etc) and placing them in a CGC holder, that they could end up anywhere, and in any environmental condition....

 

but....

 

you don't have a problem if say these same books had been removed from the chamber, newspapers removed, slabbed with microchamber paper, then placed back in the chamber

 

correct? Or are you concerned purely by the fact that they have been touched at all? I'm not quite following your argument. Initially you were concerned about the effect on PQ within a slab, but now it sounds like you would rather these books were left untouched exactly where they were found, correct? No slabbing, mylar, anything, just left in stacks in the attic, or cellar, or wherever they were found.

[14 of spades]

OK. So let's apply your conclusion then.

 

Better to buy a 1983 Copper WHITE graded last week or in 2003?

 

Or does it not matter at all?

[14 of spades]

Are the Curators now in better shape to persist into perpetuity now they have been removed from the museum and encased in slabs and sold on Ebay? My position is that they are not.

 

Look at your last comment, about the curator books. This would be true of any comic, slabbed or not. The raw curators would be in the same situation. It's a matter of keeping the books in a cool, dark & dry environment. Has nothing to do with slabbed or not.

 

But slabbing removes them from these ideal conditions because they are no longer in environment of the OO.

 

It puts these books at risk of less than ideal conditions.

 

Ok, so I think we're getting to your main argument here (to be fair you've argued a whole lot of different topics in this thread). So, you have a concern that if I were to remove the comics from say an underground chamber these books had been kept in for year (wrapped in newspaper, etc) and placing them in a CGC holder, that they could end up anywhere, and in any environmental condition....

 

but....

 

you don't have a problem if say these same books had been removed from the chamber, newspapers removed, slabbed with microchamber paper, then placed back in the chamber

 

correct? Or are you concerned purely by the fact that they have been touched at all? I'm not quite following your argument. Initially you were concerned about the effect on PQ within a slab, but now it sounds like you would rather these books were left untouched exactly where they were found, correct? No slabbing, mylar, anything, just left in stacks in the attic, or cellar, or wherever they were found.

 

Between my original question and all the ad hominems that followed - let's try to apply my query to actual circumstances - which is why I conceived the question to begin with.

 

Two books on Ebay. GI Joe 21 CGC 9.8 WHITE.

 

Book one: was graded in 2003. (ignore that this didn't happen)

 

Book two: was graded in 2009.

 

No SCS. No grading inconsistency. Same QP.

 

How much do you bid on the books?

 

Book one bid = book two bid?

Book one bid > book two bid?

Book one bid < book two bid?

[Forbush-Man]

I've already figured out that you are just here to argue until someone buys into your idea.

Your problem is with not storing books properly, not with slabbing. End of story and argument.

[14 of spades]

I've already figured out that you are just here to argue until someone buys into your idea.

Your problem is with not storing books properly, not with slabbing. End of story and argument.

 

Fine. That assumes the slab itself is safe for long-term storage of comic book paper.

[gpanalysis]

Are the Curators now in better shape to persist into perpetuity now they have been removed from the museum and encased in slabs and sold on Ebay? My position is that they are not.

 

Look at your last comment, about the curator books. This would be true of any comic, slabbed or not. The raw curators would be in the same situation. It's a matter of keeping the books in a cool, dark & dry environment. Has nothing to do with slabbed or not.

 

But slabbing removes them from these ideal conditions because they are no longer in environment of the OO.

 

It puts these books at risk of less than ideal conditions.

 

Ok, so I think we're getting to your main argument here (to be fair you've argued a whole lot of different topics in this thread). So, you have a concern that if I were to remove the comics from say an underground chamber these books had been kept in for year (wrapped in newspaper, etc) and placing them in a CGC holder, that they could end up anywhere, and in any environmental condition....

 

but....

 

you don't have a problem if say these same books had been removed from the chamber, newspapers removed, slabbed with microchamber paper, then placed back in the chamber

 

correct? Or are you concerned purely by the fact that they have been touched at all? I'm not quite following your argument. Initially you were concerned about the effect on PQ within a slab, but now it sounds like you would rather these books were left untouched exactly where they were found, correct? No slabbing, mylar, anything, just left in stacks in the attic, or cellar, or wherever they were found.

 

Between my original question and all the ad hominems that followed - let's try to apply my query to actual circumstances - which is why I conceived the question to begin with.

 

Two books on Ebay. GI Joe 21 CGC 9.8 WHITE.

 

Book one: was graded in 2003. (ignore that this didn't happen)

 

Book two: was graded in 2009.

 

No SCS. No grading inconsistency. Same QP.

 

How much do you bid on the books?

 

Book one bid = book two bid?

Book one bid > book two bid?

Book one bid < book two bid?

 

you might like to read through some expert opinion on page quality and rethink your argument(s).

 

"Thank you for your enquiry, which has been passed on to me. The State Library put on an exhibition of comic books in 2007 and subsequently I wrote a paper on the conservation issues regarding comic books, so I'm somewhat familiar with the CGC guidelines to which you refer!

 

The deterioration of paper is unfortunately a somewhat more complex issue than is indicated by their colour alone. Yellowness is often an indication that deterioration has or is occuring - especially if accompanied by an increase in brittleness. However, the colour of paper might also be affected by the colour of the original paper pulp, and whether or not the pulp was bleached. (Either during manufacture or any subsequent restoration treatment).

 

The rate of deterioration is affected greatly by storage conditions, as you say - temperature, relative humidity, pollutant levels etc. However, it is possible for the internal chemistry of two papers to be entirely different - with regards to acidity level, presence of lignin, sizing, stabilisers etc - and so two papers stored in the same conditions may still not deteriorate at the same rate. Deterioration mechanisms, once catalysed, can proceed exponentially - rather than at a constant, linear rate.

 

In general, if one paper is already more deteriorated and is placed in similar storage as a paper in good condition, I would still expect it to last less well. Deterioration is always occuring; good storage merely slows the process. The more deteriorated paper has already proceeded further along the deterioration 'road', so if we assume an end point is reached eventually, it will still reach it first. But it's very hard to quantify and predict deterioration rates, as there are so many factors involved."

 

and

 

"Paper colour

 

• 
   
  
• The colour of the paper is not a definitive indicator - especially when talking about minor differences in shade (white, cream, buff etc).
   
  
• But it IS pretty common for twentieth century newsprint-style papers to become yellower on ageing.
   
  
• As an extreme example - a 20th century paper made from woodpulp might have been white when first produced, because it was bleached. A medieval manuscript made from rag paper will more likely have been a creamy or off-white colour to begin with - because it wasn't bleached (or not so much, anyway!). The 20th century paper might start going yellow within a few decades (e.g. articles I photocopied in the 90s are already showing a yellow tinge), because fundamentally it's still made of acidic woodpulp and ages poorly. But the medieval manuscript has already lasted for centuries, and as long as it is stored well will most likely last for centuries more. This is because the paper is much better quality - pure cellulose, no lignin, no alum or rosin sizing, no bleaching etc.
   
  
• I would suspect that very white comic-book papers from the 70s had been bleached, or at least washed. Or perhaps stored in argon or something so that no oxidation/hydrolysis could occur! Off-white yes, really white seems unlikely. You're probably more familiar with what a typical 1970s comic book paper looks like, though.
  

 

Past storage/display

 

• The trouble with aged things is you can never be certain what's happened to them already - definitely, it's past life will have an affect on how it ages into the future.
   
  
• E.g. perhaps your comics were stored in a wooden box for a number of years, in a damp shed - they will have been exposed to organic acids and moisture, which will have set various deterioration reactions in motion. Or they might have been sitting in the sun, and photochemical deterioration/fading may have occurred.
   
  
• You can never be entirely sure where along the deterioration spectrum it is - unless it's obviously brittle and falling apart.
   
  
• Regarding life span, it's difficult to put any concrete time frame on this. I haven't come across many cases where someone's decided "OK that's it, this object is gone" - people tend to hang on to them no matter how deteriorated, because they still have perceived value. Sometimes they have MORE value, because there are so few examples left.
   
  
• Many papers from the 20th century defintely can become badly deteriorated within decades. The State Library has many newspapers that essentially can't be used without bits falling off them, because they are so brittle. But we still keep them - it's life isn't "over" - partly because no one can bear to make the decision to de-accession, partly because we're hoping some new technology (or lots of money!) might come along so that we can figure out a way to make them more accessible."
  

 

[thehumantorch]

I've already figured out that you are just here to argue until someone buys into your idea.

Your problem is with not storing books properly, not with slabbing. End of story and argument.

 

Fine. That assumes the slab itself is safe for long-term storage of comic book paper.

 

CGC slabs protect comics from bending and external damage. They are made out of hard plastic that should remain virtually inert for a long long time. CGC inserts micropaper in each graded comic to slow down the aging of the comic's paper.

 

I can't imagine a better storage method but let's revisit this thread in 100 years.

[kc120us]

Once they were removed, slabbed, and sold, there is no longer any control over their preservation. As such, there is a mechanism now for the books to deteriorate in their slabs faster than they would had they been left untouched.

 

Well, yes.

 

However, wouldn't they have been even more virginal if they hadn't been put into circulation in the first place?

 

I mean, how far back do we want to take this?

 

See Nick, comic collecting is the true evil here.

[Icculus308win]

Are the Curators now in better shape to persist into perpetuity now they have been removed from the museum and encased in slabs and sold on Ebay? My position is that they are not.

 

Look at your last comment, about the curator books. This would be true of any comic, slabbed or not. The raw curators would be in the same situation. It's a matter of keeping the books in a cool, dark & dry environment. Has nothing to do with slabbed or not.

 

But slabbing removes them from these ideal conditions because they are no longer in environment of the OO.

 

It puts these books at risk of less than ideal conditions.

 

Ok, so I think we're getting to your main argument here (to be fair you've argued a whole lot of different topics in this thread). So, you have a concern that if I were to remove the comics from say an underground chamber these books had been kept in for year (wrapped in newspaper, etc) and placing them in a CGC holder, that they could end up anywhere, and in any environmental condition....

 

but....

 

you don't have a problem if say these same books had been removed from the chamber, newspapers removed, slabbed with microchamber paper, then placed back in the chamber

 

correct? Or are you concerned purely by the fact that they have been touched at all? I'm not quite following your argument. Initially you were concerned about the effect on PQ within a slab, but now it sounds like you would rather these books were left untouched exactly where they were found, correct? No slabbing, mylar, anything, just left in stacks in the attic, or cellar, or wherever they were found.

 

Between my original question and all the ad hominems that followed - let's try to apply my query to actual circumstances - which is why I conceived the question to begin with.

 

Two books on Ebay. GI Joe 21 CGC 9.8 WHITE.

 

Book one: was graded in 2003. (ignore that this didn't happen)

 

Book two: was graded in 2009.

 

No SCS. No grading inconsistency. Same QP.

 

How much do you bid on the books?

 

Book one bid = book two bid?

Book one bid > book two bid?

Book one bid < book two bid?

 

you might like to read through some expert opinion on page quality and rethink your argument(s).

 

"Thank you for your enquiry, which has been passed on to me. The State Library put on an exhibition of comic books in 2007 and subsequently I wrote a paper on the conservation issues regarding comic books, so I'm somewhat familiar with the CGC guidelines to which you refer!

 

The deterioration of paper is unfortunately a somewhat more complex issue than is indicated by their colour alone. Yellowness is often an indication that deterioration has or is occuring - especially if accompanied by an increase in brittleness. However, the colour of paper might also be affected by the colour of the original paper pulp, and whether or not the pulp was bleached. (Either during manufacture or any subsequent restoration treatment).

 

The rate of deterioration is affected greatly by storage conditions, as you say - temperature, relative humidity, pollutant levels etc. However, it is possible for the internal chemistry of two papers to be entirely different - with regards to acidity level, presence of lignin, sizing, stabilisers etc - and so two papers stored in the same conditions may still not deteriorate at the same rate. Deterioration mechanisms, once catalysed, can proceed exponentially - rather than at a constant, linear rate.

 

In general, if one paper is already more deteriorated and is placed in similar storage as a paper in good condition, I would still expect it to last less well. Deterioration is always occuring; good storage merely slows the process. The more deteriorated paper has already proceeded further along the deterioration 'road', so if we assume an end point is reached eventually, it will still reach it first. But it's very hard to quantify and predict deterioration rates, as there are so many factors involved."

 

and

 

"Paper colour

 

• 
   
  
• The colour of the paper is not a definitive indicator - especially when talking about minor differences in shade (white, cream, buff etc).
   
  
• But it IS pretty common for twentieth century newsprint-style papers to become yellower on ageing.
   
  
• As an extreme example - a 20th century paper made from woodpulp might have been white when first produced, because it was bleached. A medieval manuscript made from rag paper will more likely have been a creamy or off-white colour to begin with - because it wasn't bleached (or not so much, anyway!). The 20th century paper might start going yellow within a few decades (e.g. articles I photocopied in the 90s are already showing a yellow tinge), because fundamentally it's still made of acidic woodpulp and ages poorly. But the medieval manuscript has already lasted for centuries, and as long as it is stored well will most likely last for centuries more. This is because the paper is much better quality - pure cellulose, no lignin, no alum or rosin sizing, no bleaching etc.
   
  
• I would suspect that very white comic-book papers from the 70s had been bleached, or at least washed. Or perhaps stored in argon or something so that no oxidation/hydrolysis could occur! Off-white yes, really white seems unlikely. You're probably more familiar with what a typical 1970s comic book paper looks like, though.
  

 

Past storage/display

 

• The trouble with aged things is you can never be certain what's happened to them already - definitely, it's past life will have an affect on how it ages into the future.
   
  
• E.g. perhaps your comics were stored in a wooden box for a number of years, in a damp shed - they will have been exposed to organic acids and moisture, which will have set various deterioration reactions in motion. Or they might have been sitting in the sun, and photochemical deterioration/fading may have occurred.
   
  
• You can never be entirely sure where along the deterioration spectrum it is - unless it's obviously brittle and falling apart.
   
  
• Regarding life span, it's difficult to put any concrete time frame on this. I haven't come across many cases where someone's decided "OK that's it, this object is gone" - people tend to hang on to them no matter how deteriorated, because they still have perceived value. Sometimes they have MORE value, because there are so few examples left.
   
  
• Many papers from the 20th century defintely can become badly deteriorated within decades. The State Library has many newspapers that essentially can't be used without bits falling off them, because they are so brittle. But we still keep them - it's life isn't "over" - partly because no one can bear to make the decision to de-accession, partly because we're hoping some new technology (or lots of money!) might come along so that we can figure out a way to make them more accessible."
  

 

Now that was a good read! (thumbs u