And people wonder why folks get a little bit peeved...

[awe4one]

The love of the medium itself is now overshadowed by the love of the mediums condition.

 

The hobby is dying under its own weight.

 

No it's not...people that truly love the hobby are being vocal about what they are seeing in this hobby.

 

There are many reasons this hobby may be dying but those debating issues in the hobby aren't the cause...

 

Jim

[DarkKnightReturns]

People here get far too personal and those pressers who have the integrity to hold their hands up and say what they're doing get more hassle than those pressers who say nothing and continue selling books without disclosure. How many sellers like that are there here? How many never even comment on the pressing discussions so that they can slip under the radar?

 

It's about time that more thought was put into, who are those pressers who are conspicuously silent?

 

So who presses without disclosure? Please post the names or PM me. I'd like to know.

[tth2]

Tim's posts on the subject of pressing are laced with the same self-destructive venom that Brad exhibited in the months before his banning. It's kind of sad to see.

Nah, Brad was angry about lots of things. I`m just angry about pressing.

[Monkeyman]

No, I don't buy into this whole "it's okay to press if you disclose" business. Which is one of the reasons why I never joined NOD. I'm opposed to pressing. Full stop. And will continue to make my feelings about the practice very clear.

 

If it makes you feel any better, I do agree that the ones who don't disclose are even bigger dirtbags.

 

I kinda feel sorry for the anti-pressing, high grade loving crowd

More and more I get the feeling they are tilting at windmills, without getting into the pro's and cons of pressing, it just seems that more and more there are now just two sets of books. Those that have been pressed or are suspect and those that claim loud and boldly to be "unpressed".

The first category are "unwanted" by you guys and the second category are being bought for prices out of your league by people hoping to press them out to a higher grade and who don't mind paying multiples of GPA. And of course once they are done the books move to the first category.

 

The hobby is supposed to be fun, a break from reality and all the stress. If the hobby, (or the changes in the hobby) give you more stress...in the end what's left ?

Maybe a change to mid-grade comics, which you can read and take to the can with you without fear of grade-dropping

 

 

I have done exactly this. I no longer purchase CGC 9.4 and up unless I know the book hasn't been pressed. Instead I focus on 8.5-9.2 with good PQ and QP. The number on the CGC case doesn't mean anything to me anymore as I feel it has been cheapened. I consider CGC to be a resto check and that is it. Buy the book, not the label has made me a much happier collector.

 

I've also significantly reduced the number of people I will buy from to those I know will disclose all forms of resto, conservation, enhancement. This has also made me a happier collector. Although I spend a lot less on books than I used to I'm now comfortable with what I'm buying.

 

I am now going a step further and asking about the history of the book and whoses hands it has passed through. In many cases the seller doesn't know and that is fine, but if I hear certain names the discussion is over.

 

Mike

[Monkeyman]

People here get far too personal and those pressers who have the integrity to hold their hands up and say what they're doing get more hassle than those pressers who say nothing and continue selling books without disclosure. How many sellers like that are there here? How many never even comment on the pressing discussions so that they can slip under the radar?

 

It's about time that more thought was put into, who are those pressers who are conspicuously silent?

 

So who presses without disclosure? Please post the names or PM me. I'd like to know.

 

Search the old threads from the last couple of years. You will be surprised how many there are just here on these boards. That doesn't even include pressing factories like the one Matt Nelson runs.

 

Mike

[tth2]

No, I don't buy into this whole "it's okay to press if you disclose" business. Which is one of the reasons why I never joined NOD. I'm opposed to pressing. Full stop. And will continue to make my feelings about the practice very clear.

 

If it makes you feel any better, I do agree that the ones who don't disclose are even bigger dirtbags.

 

I kinda feel sorry for the anti-pressing, high grade loving crowd

More and more I get the feeling they are tilting at windmills, without getting into the pro's and cons of pressing, it just seems that more and more there are now just two sets of books. Those that have been pressed or are suspect and those that claim loud and boldly to be "unpressed".

The first category are "unwanted" by you guys and the second category are being bought for prices out of your league by people hoping to press them out to a higher grade and who don't mind paying multiples of GPA. And of course once they are done the books move to the first category.

 

The hobby is supposed to be fun, a break from reality and all the stress. If the hobby, (or the changes in the hobby) give you more stress...in the end what's left ?

You raise good points. Has anyone hung out over in the OA forum? You`ll find a lot of "refugees" that have been driven into OA because of disgust over what has happened with comics. It actually seems to be a common trait among quite a lot of the new blood over there. They tend not to be as confrontational (or stubborn) as me, so they have been forced to take the path of least resistance and quietly move towards something that is comics-related but challenging.

 

Unfortunately, I can`t really get into OA because I just can`t get enthusiastic about what, at the end of the day, is pretty mediocre (and very overpriced) commercial art.

 

Maybe a change to mid-grade comics, which you can read and take to the can with you without fear of grade-dropping

Been there, done that. It`s just not challenging.

 

[Flee-Marquette]

 

 

Dirtbag.

[Sal]

No, I don't buy into this whole "it's okay to press if you disclose" business. Which is one of the reasons why I never joined NOD. I'm opposed to pressing. Full stop. And will continue to make my feelings about the practice very clear.

 

If it makes you feel any better, I do agree that the ones who don't disclose are even bigger dirtbags.

 

I kinda feel sorry for the anti-pressing, high grade loving crowd

More and more I get the feeling they are tilting at windmills, without getting into the pro's and cons of pressing, it just seems that more and more there are now just two sets of books. Those that have been pressed or are suspect and those that claim loud and boldly to be "unpressed".

The first category are "unwanted" by you guys and the second category are being bought for prices out of your league by people hoping to press them out to a higher grade and who don't mind paying multiples of GPA. And of course once they are done the books move to the first category.

 

 

I definitely feel sorry for anyone who looks for books that have maintained a level of unmolested preservation. Unless they are putting in the work to find OO collections that are still in the hands of the OO, it's nearly impossible to put nice runs together. And it ain't getting any easier.

 

The pressing bell isn't going to be un-rung. It's not new, either. And I think broad-brush statements about the people who press kill any chance of having a decent discussion about pressing. As do statements by the people who press about the people who disagree with the practice.

 

I do think that as the hobby - insofar as HG back issue collectors are concerned - increases its awareness of pressing, it will have some deleterious effect on the back issue market. When that will happen is anybody's guess

[joeypost]

Any time the topic of pressing comes up, somewhere, sometime, the pro-pressers will usually begin talking about how there is a feeling that the other side tends to make personal attacks on those who press.

 

Well, the topic was even being discussed and someone takes a swipe at those who do press. Folks, we might not ever agree on pressing. That is fine. But is it too much to ask that the character and morals of those of us who do press, and do disclose (cause that is what it is about right?) NOT get called names that are synonyms for cheat, thief, liar, etc?

 

 

The GL #1 and some of the earlier issues were picked up by a private collector and are disappearing for a while I think.

I sure hope that's the case, Roy. I figured at that price it must be going to some dirtbag presser who's planning on making a profit by getting it up to a 9.4.

 

I guess it doesnt bother some to question people's character over a message board. I just wonder if they would be willing so willing to say that in a face to face conversation.

 

Thanks Tim. It seems your hypocrisy knows no bounds

Maybe my statement was abrasive, not nice, or many other things, but I'm not sure how it's hypocritical, Arex.

 

Abrasive

 

I now have another word to add to my up and coming custom title. Dirtbag.

 

Tim, I want you to know I pressed a few books in your honor last night. I might give them a new "From the TTH inspired DIRTBAG collection" designation.

[Dale Roberts]

Any time the topic of pressing comes up, somewhere, sometime, the pro-pressers will usually begin talking about how there is a feeling that the other side tends to make personal attacks on those who press.

 

I'm not going to speak for Tim since he's a big boy and can handle any criticism that comes...

 

What I will say is I've done the same thing Tim is accused of and it comes from frustration. And the frustration comes from multiple angles...

 

Frustration that people are pressing purely for profit. Yes...greed...and that in itself tends to bring the worse out of those that disagree...

 

Frustration that people imply the anti-pressers are somehow naive and not hip on the current market...

 

Frustration from all the sarcasm directed their way...

 

Frustration that you can't tell if a comic has been pressed. And it's nice to see that some are seeing the fallacy of that argument...

 

And finally the fallacy that pressing ISN'T resto now despite the fact it was recognized as resto not too long in the past. Just because CGC doesn't consider it resto doesn't make it the final word...

 

People will hear what they want as demonstrated by the numerous debates we've had here. This is a pro-pressing Forum based on CGC's stance and that's fine. But don't expect people to engage in serious debate, sans the occasional dig, when the pressing crowd continually tries to drown out the opinion the anti-pressers are trying to convey.

 

It works both ways...and sarcasm/distain for their views tend to bring out the worse in others...

 

Jim

 

Jim, I don't want to pick on you or anyone else, but this simply doesn't make any sense to me. To start with, it has been a long time since pressing was considered restoration. CGC has been grading for 9 years in January. That is quite a while when you consider the hobby is only 60 years old, and there has really only been any significant selling since the middle 1970s, and at that time, there was NO recognition of restoration. Up until the time of CGC, there was NO standard recognized definition of restoration.

 

From CGC...

Restoration is treatment intended to return a comic book to a known or assumed state by adding non-original material. Detected restoration is always disclosed on the CGC certification label. Non-additive procedures, such as pressing, dry cleaning and tape removal, are not classified as restoration by CGC. Trimmed books are given an apparent grade, and, in accordance with CGC's policy, are encapsulated with CGC's restored label. Learn more about comic book restoration.

 

And if pressing is done incorrectly and damages the comic, CGC downgrades for it. They may not be able to detect pressing done correctly, but they certainly WILL detect damage done from improper pressing.

 

from CGC...

Please note that pressing and / or dry cleaning performed incorrectly or on a comic book exhibiting certain flaws — such as slightly brittle pages, weak spine, cover wear at staple and / or other defects — can damage the comic book and lower its grade.

 

I am not trying to drown out anything. Your arguments and stance simply don't make any sense to me.

 

Restoration does not return a book to its original state. It only brings the appearance of the original state. Restoration brings a change in mass(as with adding pieces or trimming), or a change in the chemical composition of the book(adding pieces or color, or chemical cleaning). Pressing does neither of these things. Pressing can, in fact, bring a book to (or nearer to) its original state.

 

 

[awe4one]

Any time the topic of pressing comes up, somewhere, sometime, the pro-pressers will usually begin talking about how there is a feeling that the other side tends to make personal attacks on those who press.

 

Well, the topic was even being discussed and someone takes a swipe at those who do press. Folks, we might not ever agree on pressing. That is fine. But is it too much to ask that the character and morals of those of us who do press, and do disclose (cause that is what it is about right?) NOT get called names that are synonyms for cheat, thief, liar, etc?

 

 

The GL #1 and some of the earlier issues were picked up by a private collector and are disappearing for a while I think.

I sure hope that's the case, Roy. I figured at that price it must be going to some dirtbag presser who's planning on making a profit by getting it up to a 9.4.

 

I guess it doesnt bother some to question people's character over a message board. I just wonder if they would be willing so willing to say that in a face to face conversation.

 

Thanks Tim. It seems your hypocrisy knows no bounds

Maybe my statement was abrasive, not nice, or many other things, but I'm not sure how it's hypocritical, Arex.

 

Abrasive

 

I now have another word to add to my up and coming custom title. Dirtbag.

 

Tim, I want you to know I pressed a few books in your honor last night. I might give them a new "From the TTH inspired DIRTBAG collection" designation.

 

And the sarcasm that doesn't help the discussion continues... Thanks for clearly making, one, of my points...

 

Jim

[Dale Roberts]

No, I don't buy into this whole "it's okay to press if you disclose" business. Which is one of the reasons why I never joined NOD. I'm opposed to pressing. Full stop. And will continue to make my feelings about the practice very clear.

 

If it makes you feel any better, I do agree that the ones who don't disclose are even bigger dirtbags.

 

I kinda feel sorry for the anti-pressing, high grade loving crowd

More and more I get the feeling they are tilting at windmills, without getting into the pro's and cons of pressing, it just seems that more and more there are now just two sets of books. Those that have been pressed or are suspect and those that claim loud and boldly to be "unpressed".

The first category are "unwanted" by you guys and the second category are being bought for prices out of your league by people hoping to press them out to a higher grade and who don't mind paying multiples of GPA. And of course once they are done the books move to the first category.

 

The hobby is supposed to be fun, a break from reality and all the stress. If the hobby, (or the changes in the hobby) give you more stress...in the end what's left ?

You raise good points. Has anyone hung out over in the OA forum? You`ll find a lot of "refugees" that have been driven into OA because of disgust over what has happened with comics. It actually seems to be a common trait among quite a lot of the new blood over there. They tend not to be as confrontational (or stubborn) as me, so they have been forced to take the path of least resistance and quietly move towards something that is comics-related but challenging.

 

Unfortunately, I can`t really get into OA because I just can`t get enthusiastic about what, at the end of the day, is pretty mediocre (and very overpriced) commercial art.

 

Maybe a change to mid-grade comics, which you can read and take to the can with you without fear of grade-dropping

Been there, done that. It`s just not challenging.

 

 

Don't want to burst anyone's bubble, but pressing and dry cleaning are happening on original art everyday. Ask Matt.

[joeypost]

Any time the topic of pressing comes up, somewhere, sometime, the pro-pressers will usually begin talking about how there is a feeling that the other side tends to make personal attacks on those who press.

 

Well, the topic was even being discussed and someone takes a swipe at those who do press. Folks, we might not ever agree on pressing. That is fine. But is it too much to ask that the character and morals of those of us who do press, and do disclose (cause that is what it is about right?) NOT get called names that are synonyms for cheat, thief, liar, etc?

 

 

The GL #1 and some of the earlier issues were picked up by a private collector and are disappearing for a while I think.

I sure hope that's the case, Roy. I figured at that price it must be going to some dirtbag presser who's planning on making a profit by getting it up to a 9.4.

 

I guess it doesnt bother some to question people's character over a message board. I just wonder if they would be willing so willing to say that in a face to face conversation.

 

Thanks Tim. It seems your hypocrisy knows no bounds

Maybe my statement was abrasive, not nice, or many other things, but I'm not sure how it's hypocritical, Arex.

 

Abrasive

 

I now have another word to add to my up and coming custom title. Dirtbag.

 

Tim, I want you to know I pressed a few books in your honor last night. I might give them a new "From the TTH inspired DIRTBAG collection" designation.

 

And the sarcasm that doesn't help the discussion continues... Thnaks for making clearly making, one, of my points...

 

Jim

 

I thought I was being kind compared to Tim's overall earlier post. If you make a blanket statement about everyone that presses I would imagine a little sarcasm is warranted. I also believe my past participation in pressing threads allows me to vent a little. Or do you have a different dog in this fight?

[goldust40]

Keep in mind encapsulated comics is a very, very tiny niche in overall fandom. There's probably more to enjoy now than ever before. Comics and related stuff are everywhere. (thumbs u

 

Monetarily speaking and as far as the high end is concerned, encapsulated books are very very far from a tiny niche. They are approaching the norm.

[short_box-migration]

Pressing does neither of these things. Pressing can, in fact, bring a book to (or nearer to) its original state.

 

Damn, all this time I thought that's what the definition of "restoration" was

[Sal]

Pressing does neither of these things. Pressing can, in fact, bring a book to (or nearer to) its original state.

 

Damn, all this time I thought that's what the definition of "restoration" was

 

Well, no.

 

 

Appearance is everything in restoration. Conservation is about maintaining the book's condition.

 

Pressing is something else. I've long thought that there need to be new terms when discussing comics and the work done on them to improve their appearance. Restoration by itself is both too broad and too narrow

[Dale Roberts]

Pressing does neither of these things. Pressing can, in fact, bring a book to (or nearer to) its original state.

 

Damn, all this time I thought that's what the definition of "restoration" was

 

Nope, this is what restoration is...

 

Restoration is treatment intended to return a comic book to a known or assumed state by adding non-original material. Detected restoration is always disclosed on the CGC certification label. Non-additive procedures, such as pressing, dry cleaning and tape removal, are not classified as restoration by CGC. Trimmed books are given an apparent grade, and, in accordance with CGC's policy, are encapsulated with CGC's restored label. Learn more about comic book restoration.

 

Pressing is simply a flattening process. Doesn't do anything else.

[tth2]

No, I don't buy into this whole "it's okay to press if you disclose" business. Which is one of the reasons why I never joined NOD. I'm opposed to pressing. Full stop. And will continue to make my feelings about the practice very clear.

 

If it makes you feel any better, I do agree that the ones who don't disclose are even bigger dirtbags.

 

I kinda feel sorry for the anti-pressing, high grade loving crowd

More and more I get the feeling they are tilting at windmills, without getting into the pro's and cons of pressing, it just seems that more and more there are now just two sets of books. Those that have been pressed or are suspect and those that claim loud and boldly to be "unpressed".

The first category are "unwanted" by you guys and the second category are being bought for prices out of your league by people hoping to press them out to a higher grade and who don't mind paying multiples of GPA. And of course once they are done the books move to the first category.

 

The hobby is supposed to be fun, a break from reality and all the stress. If the hobby, (or the changes in the hobby) give you more stress...in the end what's left ?

You raise good points. Has anyone hung out over in the OA forum? You`ll find a lot of "refugees" that have been driven into OA because of disgust over what has happened with comics. It actually seems to be a common trait among quite a lot of the new blood over there. They tend not to be as confrontational (or stubborn) as me, so they have been forced to take the path of least resistance and quietly move towards something that is comics-related but challenging.

 

Unfortunately, I can`t really get into OA because I just can`t get enthusiastic about what, at the end of the day, is pretty mediocre (and very overpriced) commercial art.

 

Maybe a change to mid-grade comics, which you can read and take to the can with you without fear of grade-dropping

Been there, done that. It`s just not challenging.

 

 

Don't want to burst anyone's bubble, but pressing and dry cleaning are happening on original art everyday. Ask Matt.

That`s different. Condition is a secondary factor in collecting OA, because it`s unique. First and foremost are the image and the artist. I would never not buy a Picasso because it had been restored. In high grade comic collecting, on the other hand, condition is everything.

[awe4one]

Any time the topic of pressing comes up, somewhere, sometime, the pro-pressers will usually begin talking about how there is a feeling that the other side tends to make personal attacks on those who press.

 

Well, the topic was even being discussed and someone takes a swipe at those who do press. Folks, we might not ever agree on pressing. That is fine. But is it too much to ask that the character and morals of those of us who do press, and do disclose (cause that is what it is about right?) NOT get called names that are synonyms for cheat, thief, liar, etc?

 

 

The GL #1 and some of the earlier issues were picked up by a private collector and are disappearing for a while I think.

I sure hope that's the case, Roy. I figured at that price it must be going to some dirtbag presser who's planning on making a profit by getting it up to a 9.4.

 

I guess it doesnt bother some to question people's character over a message board. I just wonder if they would be willing so willing to say that in a face to face conversation.

 

Thanks Tim. It seems your hypocrisy knows no bounds

Maybe my statement was abrasive, not nice, or many other things, but I'm not sure how it's hypocritical, Arex.

 

Abrasive

 

I now have another word to add to my up and coming custom title. Dirtbag.

 

Tim, I want you to know I pressed a few books in your honor last night. I might give them a new "From the TTH inspired DIRTBAG collection" designation.

 

And the sarcasm that doesn't help the discussion continues... Thnaks for making clearly making, one, of my points...

 

Jim

 

I thought I was being kind compared to Tim's overall earlier post. If you make a blanket statement about everyone that presses I would imagine a little sarcasm is warranted. I also believe my past participation in pressing threads allows me to vent a little. Or do you have a different dog in this fight?

 

What diffeernt "dog" would you suggest? It's criticism like yours that make the other side think they need to attack. I understand that you were addressing a specific comment but it's routine for the pro-pressing crowd to throw this type of criticism, even if unprovoked, at the anti-crowd. Sarcasm tends to suggest a disregard to a person's views...and that's rampant arounf here considering this topic from many posters.

 

You press, everyone knows it. Have fun doing it.. Just don't expect everyone to embrace your passion for doing so...

 

Jim

[tth2]

From CGC...

Restoration is treatment intended to return a comic book to a known or assumed state by adding non-original material. Detected restoration is always disclosed on the CGC certification label. Non-additive procedures, such as pressing, dry cleaning and tape removal, are not classified as restoration by CGC. Trimmed books are given an apparent grade, and, in accordance with CGC's policy, are encapsulated with CGC's restored label. Learn more about comic book restoration.

 

And if pressing is done incorrectly and damages the comic, CGC downgrades for it. They may not be able to detect pressing done correctly, but they certainly WILL detect damage done from improper pressing.

 

from CGC...

Please note that pressing and / or dry cleaning performed incorrectly or on a comic book exhibiting certain flaws — such as slightly brittle pages, weak spine, cover wear at staple and / or other defects — can damage the comic book and lower its grade.

 

I am not trying to drown out anything. Your arguments and stance simply don't make any sense to me.

 

Restoration does not return a book to its original state. It only brings the appearance of the original state. Restoration brings a change in mass(as with adding pieces or trimming), or a change in the chemical composition of the book(adding pieces or color, or chemical cleaning). Pressing does neither of these things. Pressing can, in fact, bring a book to (or nearer to) its original state.

 

Your arguments make sense IF CGC`s definition of restoration is accepted as gospel truth. However, it`s not.