Why do Anti-Pressers HATE pressing?

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

But, you didn't. That's the problem.

 

And I'm not being snide; the reality is, this market pays more for the number. Would you pay the $4300 this exact book sold for in 2014 if that was still the 9.2 that it sold for for $1750 in 2011?

 

The 9.2 may have been more appealing to you....but no one was willing to pay $4300 for it until it was in a case that said 9.6.

 

Same book.

 

And until and unless that changes....and it doesn't seem all that possible, much less likely...then this will continue forever.

 

 

 

Your post neglects the point that the pressed and shrunken version of the JIM #93 should never have been graded higher than the unpressed version. The latter is a nicer comic, a point most everyone agreed with in the original thread on the poor pressing of the Cole Schave collection.

 

 

My post neglects that because I don't agree with your opinion. The unpressed book presents in the case nicer, but that's just part of the story. That opinion isn't shared by CGC, or the market. I don't know whether the book should have graded higher or not; I never saw it in person. You did, so you speak from better experience, but did you see the book after it was pressed, or after it became a 9.6? If not, then you're only grading from a scan, which everyone should know isn't a valid grading method, and you're saying that the book doesn't deserve to be a 9.6 (or 9.4, or 9.2, or...?) based just on the shifted cover.

 

But that's not how books are graded.

 

And you're still assuming it's "shrunken." Where is the actual physical analysis that demonstrates that?

 

Paper is elastic, but it's not that elastic. Now, unfortunately, I'm not a structural engineer, so I can't explain the precise mechanics behind paper behavior, but I CAN speak from personal experience, having pressed many hundreds, if not thousands, of Silver Age books in the past 6 years, from 1.5 to 9.8. And I have never had a single cover shrink, even covers that I have had to get substantially "damp" to work with (and yes, that's a fairly harrowing process.)

 

For the cover of that book to have "shrunk", if shrinking is possible in the first place, it would have to have been exposed to substantial moisture and/or heat, and that moisture would have had to have been generally consistent over the entire cover, to "shrink" the way it did.

 

But this was already a high grade book, and didn't need any sort of aggressive pressing. Matt's the best in the business, and I suspect he worked on this book personally. Since the book was already a 9.2, it wouldn't have been exposed to the type of moisture that would have uniformly "shrunk" the cover, again assuming that's even possible.

 

In other words, if you're just getting out a couple of wrinkles, you don't drop the entire book in a bath. You target the areas that need targeting, and leave everything else alone (that is, when it comes to humidifying the book.)

 

Yes, paper expands when it is exposed to moisture: that's the nature of the plant cells of which it is made. But that expansion is limited by the ink, sizing, and the physical characteristics of the paper fiber itself. It's not a sponge, and doesn't behave like one. And this particular book wouldn't have needed the cover to have been uniformly damp, much less wet, to get it from a 9.2 to a 9.6.

 

Now, heat IS uniform for every book, granted. But we're talking about temperatures, when done properly, of , at most, 165 F or so, and the book isn't exposed to that level of heat for any serious length of time. And, it's not plastic, either. (Aside: don't press Bloodshot #0!)

 

Granted...I'm a layman when it comes to structural engineering, and I'm probably not using the proper terminology, and there are likely gaps in my understanding of paper mechanics, which I would be thrilled to have filled in by a paper expert.

 

But I'm NOT a layman when it comes to pressing, and having pressed thousands of books, I have never seen anything approaching "shrinking" on any book, especially on a high grade book that doesn't need that much effort to work out its flaws to start with.

 

 

One of the engines that keeps the pressing train rolling is the grading company ignoring twisted and shrunken covers, arrival dates turned into ink stains, staple impactions made larger, relocated spines, horizontal top and bottom edge creases, vertical creases along over pressurized spines, fuzzy staples from where the cover was pulled away, and the other overt defects introduced all too often by the pressing process. And which are especially common on pressed early SA Marvels.

 

 

Absolutely! I agree with you 100%! Those are the results of poor press jobs, more specifically aggressive press jobs. Proper pressing is a gentle, long, gentle, long, and gentle process. Did I mention it was gentle and takes a long time to do it properly?

 

Those defects you describe....aside from the shrinking....absolutely SHOULD be taken into account....but I don't know that they aren't. But if they aren't, they should be, of course, just like any damage done to a book, regardless of why.

 

 

I understand from reading in the thread about the new holders that there may also be a problem with some pressed comics suffering cover damage in the form of long vertical lines of color loss near the right edge, possibly from underlying micro chamber paper. Consistent punishing of these instances of pressing-induced damage with lower grades would go a long way toward forcing pressers to maintain the highest levels of care and expertise, and dis-incentivize the loss of the high grade unpressed early SA Marvel from the comic marketplace. So would an acceptance by the grading company that gentle bending of the cover overhang is a natural phenomenon, and need not be pressed out to look like an over starched shirt at the dry cleaners in order for an early Marvel comic to receive a NM+ or higher grade.

 

 

That's not the impression that I got, that there was color loss from the edge of MCP pressed into the cover....that wouldn't be a normal reaction, even if done, unless there was some type of unusually high heat..175 F or above (which is foolishness)....but it demonstrates carelessness on the part of the presser, and a lack of attention to detail. Absolutely, bad pressing should be treated just like any other damage, regardless of how it happened. Pressing is an artform as much as a science, and there are many books being permanently damaged by people who don't respect the fragile nature of old paper, and never will, no matter how much they practice.

 

 

[VintageComics]

Can I just say, I love the phrase "some books benefit from a press".

 

The book doesn't benefit, and the buyer of the book doesn't benefit. Yes, thanks for making the same object cost me 6x as much as it would have two weeks ago.

 

But it's the same in any field where money changes hands for a product. Some commodities benefit financially from either a little time, a little work or a little knowledge.

 

Sorry you missed the run up on the price for Team Tarantula Corp stock.

 

 

[VintageComics]

Well if my car has a minor dent, in SOME cases I can knock out the dent. Haven't changed the parts, haven't even repainted. Does it count as restored? Can you always tell there was even a dent there before?

 

Has the car benefited? I would say yes. Has the owner also benefited? I would also say yes.

 

Is this so different then pressing a comic?

 

That is the exact analogy I used. Coming from the automotive industry (high end European cars like Porsche, Mercedes, Rolls, Jaguar, Lotus etc) it is industry norm to press out a dent without repainting the entire fender AND there is zero disclosure.

 

And even if there was, because it's invisible I don't think anyone cares.

[MetalPSI]

Well if my car has a minor dent, in SOME cases I can knock out the dent. Haven't changed the parts, haven't even repainted. Does it count as restored? Can you always tell there was even a dent there before?

 

Has the car benefited? I would say yes. Has the owner also benefited? I would also say yes.

 

Is this so different then pressing a comic?

 

That is the exact analogy I used. Coming from the automotive industry (high end European cars like Porsche, Mercedes, Rolls, Jaguar, Lotus etc) it is industry norm to press out a dent without repainting the entire fender AND there is zero disclosure.

 

And even if there was, because it's invisible I don't think anyone cares.

 

You and I need a sit down over coffee one day Love to talk shop with you

[COI]

Can I just say, I love the phrase "some books benefit from a press".

 

The book doesn't benefit, and the buyer of the book doesn't benefit. Yes, thanks for making the same object cost me 6x as much as it would have two weeks ago.

 

So you're saying books don't regularly come out of a press in a higher grade and undetectably different from an unpressed book in that same grade?

 

If that were actually the case you might be on to something. I don't think it is though. As people have stated over and over again in many different ways, if you could actually detect a pressed book with a high degree of certainty, then so could grading services, and the argument might have a leg to stand on.

 

I'm sympathetic, but the reality is what it is.

 

 

What?

 

When I think of "benefiting" a book, I think of taking the rust off of staples, reinforcing the spine, and basically any measure of restoration that helps the book avoid further deterioration. The type of flaw that pressing can fix, like a ncb dent, won't get any worse if the book is properly cared for.

 

Getting a book into a different holder with a higher grade doesn't benefit anyone but the person getting the book pressed. And AGAIN, I'm all for free enterprise, and I understand that the demand is there for that higher number on the slab, but this idea that books benefit, and buyers of the pressed books benefit is just patronizing.

 

And you keep insisting that my arguments "don't have a leg to stand on" because of the undetectable nature of pressing, which I don't understand, as I've demonstrated several times that the undetectable nature is the crux of the problem, and thereby the main reason I think high grade collecting as a whole has been completely undermined.

[COI]

Some people just hold ideological beliefs on this. There is no compromise.

 

Dude, are you serious? Ideology implies irrationality, when I've made rational, logically sound arguments that you haven't actually engaged beyond telling me my arguments are emotional and existential. Just saying an argument is this or that isn't in itself an argument.

[SquareChaos]

Can I just say, I love the phrase "some books benefit from a press".

 

The book doesn't benefit, and the buyer of the book doesn't benefit. Yes, thanks for making the same object cost me 6x as much as it would have two weeks ago.

 

So you're saying books don't regularly come out of a press in a higher grade and undetectably different from an unpressed book in that same grade?

 

If that were actually the case you might be on to something. I don't think it is though. As people have stated over and over again in many different ways, if you could actually detect a pressed book with a high degree of certainty, then so could grading services, and the argument might have a leg to stand on.

 

I'm sympathetic, but the reality is what it is.

 

 

What?

 

When I think of "benefiting" a book, I think of taking the rust off of staples, reinforcing the spine, and basically any measure of restoration that helps the book avoid further deterioration. The type of flaw that pressing can fix, like a ncb dent, won't get any worse if the book is properly cared for.

 

Getting a book into a different holder with a higher grade doesn't benefit anyone but the person getting the book pressed. And AGAIN, I'm all for free enterprise, and I understand that the demand is there for that higher number on the slab, but this idea that books benefit, and buyers of the pressed books benefit is just patronizing.

 

And you keep insisting that my arguments "don't have a leg to stand on" because of the undetectable nature of pressing, which I don't understand, as I've demonstrated several times that the undetectable nature is the crux of the problem, and thereby the main reason I think high grade collecting as a whole has been completely undermined.

 

I guess we don't speak the same language on this.

 

It's been an interesting discussion though, so I appreciate that. I've also learned a few things. But I don't think I have anything worthwhile left to add to the discussion.

[grebal]

What?

 

When I think of "benefiting" a book, I think of taking the rust off of staples, reinforcing the spine, and basically any measure of restoration that helps the book avoid further deterioration. The type of flaw that pressing can fix, like a ncb dent, won't get any worse if the book is properly cared for.

 

Getting a book into a different holder with a higher grade doesn't benefit anyone but the person getting the book pressed. And AGAIN, I'm all for free enterprise, and I understand that the demand is there for that higher number on the slab, but this idea that books benefit, and buyers of the pressed books benefit is just patronizing.

 

And you keep insisting that my arguments "don't have a leg to stand on" because of the undetectable nature of pressing, which I don't understand, as I've demonstrated several times that the undetectable nature is the crux of the problem, and thereby the main reason I think high grade collecting as a whole has been completely undermined.

 

On at least two levels- one, it affects the purists or those who object for the unknown unknowns.

 

And the obvious one, it dilutes the value of high grades since there are more of them.

[SquareChaos]

Some people just hold ideological beliefs on this. There is no compromise.

 

Dude, are you serious? Ideology implies irrationality, when I've made rational, logically sound arguments that you haven't actually engaged beyond telling me my arguments are emotional and existential. Just saying an argument is this or that isn't in itself an argument.

 

Ideological beliefs do not always mean one is irrational. It means you believe your right, and you're not going to start singing any praises of pressing. You've had nothing good to say about it.

 

That's all my statement means. I see it more gray, you don't.

[COI]

Well if my car has a minor dent, in SOME cases I can knock out the dent. Haven't changed the parts, haven't even repainted. Does it count as restored? Can you always tell there was even a dent there before?

 

Has the car benefited? I would say yes. Has the owner also benefited? I would also say yes.

 

Is this so different then pressing a comic?

 

That is the exact analogy I used. Coming from the automotive industry (high end European cars like Porsche, Mercedes, Rolls, Jaguar, Lotus etc) it is industry norm to press out a dent without repainting the entire fender AND there is zero disclosure.

 

And even if there was, because it's invisible I don't think anyone cares.

 

Yeah, perfect analogy, except that when you press out that ding in a car, you do so to preserve its value, not to then flip that car for 10 times what you paid. And taking care of structural damage in a vehicle, no matter how minor, is a preventative step in keeping it functional for longer, as even a tiny dent or ding can lead to greater long-term damage.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Can I just say, I love the phrase "some books benefit from a press".

 

The book doesn't benefit, and the buyer of the book doesn't benefit. Yes, thanks for making the same object cost me 6x as much as it would have two weeks ago.

 

 

But that is your opinion, and not one shared by everybody.

 

I think a book benefits tremendously by not having a bend in it. How does the book actually benefit? Because that bend has a greater chance of being folded back into a crease, or caught on something, or any number of scenarios where the flaw could result in more damage by not being flat.

 

But, of course, the main benefit is to the aesthetic sensibilities of the person observing the book. It just looks better, and it is more pleasing to the eye.

 

The buyer benefits because he/she is getting a book that looks nicer. Yes, having to pay a monetary difference sucks, and I have long noted the ridiculousness of the market with respect to tiny differences in condition. But if the book looks nicer, it IS nicer, and for many people, that's really what it's all about.

 

I press my own books, books that I want to keep forever, and don't want to sell. I have hundreds of slabs that are mine, that remain in my collection, for as long as I have my collection, because they look nice. Bends, creases, dents....these things annoy me. So, if I can make them not be....regardless of the monetary concerns...I will do that, because it makes me happy about my books. Having books with dents, bends, and dings on them makes me unhappy. Having the ability to remove those dents, bends, and dings makes me INCREDIBLY happy. It thrills me to no end.

 

And isn't that really what collecting is all about...?

 

 

 

[VintageComics]

Well if my car has a minor dent, in SOME cases I can knock out the dent. Haven't changed the parts, haven't even repainted. Does it count as restored? Can you always tell there was even a dent there before?

 

Has the car benefited? I would say yes. Has the owner also benefited? I would also say yes.

 

Is this so different then pressing a comic?

 

That is the exact analogy I used. Coming from the automotive industry (high end European cars like Porsche, Mercedes, Rolls, Jaguar, Lotus etc) it is industry norm to press out a dent without repainting the entire fender AND there is zero disclosure.

 

And even if there was, because it's invisible I don't think anyone cares.

 

Yeah, perfect analogy, except that when you press out that ding in a car, you do so to preserve its value, not to then flip that car for 10 times what you paid. And taking care of structural damage in a vehicle, no matter how minor, is a preventative step in keeping it functional for longer, as even a tiny dent or ding can lead to greater long-term damage.

 

Nope. It's all cosmetic and the analogy fits perfectly as it's all about increasing value through cosmetic adjustment. Sorry.

 

I still love you.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Well if my car has a minor dent, in SOME cases I can knock out the dent. Haven't changed the parts, haven't even repainted. Does it count as restored? Can you always tell there was even a dent there before?

 

Has the car benefited? I would say yes. Has the owner also benefited? I would also say yes.

 

Is this so different then pressing a comic?

 

That is the exact analogy I used. Coming from the automotive industry (high end European cars like Porsche, Mercedes, Rolls, Jaguar, Lotus etc) it is industry norm to press out a dent without repainting the entire fender AND there is zero disclosure.

 

And even if there was, because it's invisible I don't think anyone cares.

 

Yeah, perfect analogy, except that when you press out that ding in a car, you do so to preserve its value, not to then flip that car for 10 times what you paid.

 

 

But the argument here is with the market and its absurd overvaluation of tiny differences in condition as represented by the numbers on the label, not with the analogy.

 

 

[VintageComics]

Some people just hold ideological beliefs on this. There is no compromise.

 

Dude, are you serious? Ideology implies irrationality, when I've made rational, logically sound arguments that you haven't actually engaged beyond telling me my arguments are emotional and existential. Just saying an argument is this or that isn't in itself an argument.

 

Ideological beliefs do not always mean one is irrational.

 

I was going to say the same thing.

 

Ideology on the other hand may be the opposite of practical.

[COI]

Can I just say, I love the phrase "some books benefit from a press".

 

The book doesn't benefit, and the buyer of the book doesn't benefit. Yes, thanks for making the same object cost me 6x as much as it would have two weeks ago.

 

But it's the same in any field where money changes hands for a product. Some commodities benefit financially from either a little time, a little work or a little knowledge.

 

Sorry you missed the run up on the price for Team Tarantula Corp stock.

 

 

Commodities don't benefit financially, the people selling the commodities benefit financially. Comics don't benefit from pressing, the person selling the newly pressed book, in the context of a hobby where tiny flaws can cost thousands of dollars, benefits. Because almost no one would bother pressing books outside of this paradigm, it's clearly not being done to benefit the book.

 

And for the 19th time, that's totally cool, but the fog horn is grating.

[VintageComics]

And for the 19th time, that's totally cool, but the fog horn is grating.

 

And I now finally understand what the fog horn is.

 

And I still love you.

 

Even more since I broke my ankle.

[jsilverjanet]

Greggy could benefit from a press.

[SquareChaos]

Some people just hold ideological beliefs on this. There is no compromise.

 

Dude, are you serious? Ideology implies irrationality, when I've made rational, logically sound arguments that you haven't actually engaged beyond telling me my arguments are emotional and existential. Just saying an argument is this or that isn't in itself an argument.

 

Last thing, just to clear the air, this is false.

 

Your concerns over whether or not a given book you own was pressed is often existential, you're concerned about the concept itself unless you have one of these poor mangled books where it is obvious. Also, many of these arguments are emotional arguments, so yes, I did say that and stand by it.

 

Your concerns over the impact on the hobby are very valid - I agree with many and I think others that are "pro" on this topic agree as well.

 

I once read an article that talked about "text only" arguments. The findings basically found that both sides come away from them thinking the other side held much more radical beliefs on the topic than they actually did. I always try to keep this in mind on here.

 

Everyone in this thread is OK by me, even if I disagree with your stance

[COI]

Some people just hold ideological beliefs on this. There is no compromise.

 

Dude, are you serious? Ideology implies irrationality, when I've made rational, logically sound arguments that you haven't actually engaged beyond telling me my arguments are emotional and existential. Just saying an argument is this or that isn't in itself an argument.

 

Ideological beliefs do not always mean one is irrational.

 

I was going to say the same thing.

 

Ideology on the other hand may be the opposite of practical.

 

You guys are making me tired.

 

I didn't say ideological beliefs mean someone is irrational, but ideological beliefs are just that - beliefs - and they aren't governed by the rules of logic or evidence. Calling an argument "ideological" means you have to demonstrate how that argument is relying on belief, and is therefore potentially suspect strictly from a logical/rational standpoint, otherwise it's a misnomer at best, or an attempt to diminish an argument at worst.

[namisgr]

Don't worry about it, you won these guys approval.