Why do Anti-Pressers HATE pressing?

[Sqeggs]

Pressing is highly undetecable when done correctly. Sure, you might be able to pick a few out of a long lineup but you can't pick all of them. Most of them would be guesses, unlike finding color touch.

I was able to detect pressing on all the raw regular books you sold me. The only two I could not tell were two square bound issues.

 

So what you're saying is that even you can't tell with 100% accuracy.

 

Some books make better candidates than others, but the real point is do you want a grading company giving their opinion on something that they would be guessing half the time?

What I said is that I was able to detect pressing on your regular raw books with 100% accuracy

 

Was it because pressing is not highly undetectable or was it because they were not pressed correctly ?

 

Yes, I confess that I cannot detect pressing on square bound issues when pressing is done correctly on those. I cannot explain why though there seems to be a difference of results between regular raw books and square bound issues. Size and thickness of the book? Position of the staples? I don't know.

 

Are you saying that you believe you can always detect pressing except when the book is square bound? Not trying to be argumentative; just trying to understand your point.

I did not say that I can always detect pressing. My point is that pressing is much easier or at least much less difficult to detect than pressers want us to believe.

 

It is very hard to detect when book stays in a CGC holder except for extreme examples like those having Costanza look, etc. as already discussed in past threads. It is a different story when the book is raw.

 

You don't have to believe me. Just do the test yourself. Send a couple books (regular and square bound) for pressing and ask to have them back raw. Look at them before and look at them after. Then decide by yourself.

 

That being said, I am not saying that pressing is pure evil. Some books really benefit from pressing. Some other books don't though and seem to be "sacrificed" just to get a bigger number on the upper left corner and that JIM 93 is a good example. I am all about disclosure though and the in-house pressing by CGC is bothering me a lot.. to say the least...

 

If they weren't different after the pressing, I'd want my money back from the presser.

[VintageComics]

The potential of bastardized uber high grade SA books being passed around in the market does not concern you?

 

I've loved old comics since about 1975, so please don't put words in my mouth.

 

I am simply explaining why CGC may not downgrade for certain defects as much as some would like them to.

 

I try to separate the emotional from the factual.

[revat]

And the incredible shrinking covers on comics that used to be unpressed 9.2s.

 

 

 

 

https://www.cgccomics.com/news/viewarticle.aspx?IDArticle=3595

 

Pressing seems to be one of those sciences that is an art.

 

But, but...... I thought pressing is undetectable?

 

I'm waiting for someone to say "if done right, pressing is undetectable".

 

Pressing is often undetectable. Close enough?

 

Agreed, although less often than many people think.

 

Some people here have seen way more slabs than I have. I don't know. All I know is that anyone can tell if they look like the books that have recently been posted to this thread... in my experience those defects are the minority :shrug:

 

In my limited experience, the only way to tell most of the time is the absence of pressable defects in an older book.... and that's just speculation.

 

There are so many short-sighted, obfuscating comments made in these discussions that it's frustrating to offer a rebuttal for the 10,000th time only to have someone repeat the error again in an effort to make it reality this time.

 

Pressing is highly undetecable when done correctly. Sure, you might be able to pick a few out of a long lineup but you can't pick all of them. Most of them would be guesses, unlike finding color touch.

 

That is why CGC doesn't notate pressing. They can't detect it accurately, and nobody would want CGC take uneducated guesses on their books.

 

When pressing is detected, it's most often because of a bad press job, and for those things CGC notates the defects and downgrades for them based on their own internal grading standards.

 

---------------------------

 

The people who say "I thought pressing was undetectable' when someone posts a shrunken cover example like this are just being contrarian for the sake of being contrarian. Everyone who followed the thread on the topic a few years ago knows these books were pressed improperly because we have before and after pictures.

 

But the real reason these books don't get singled out solely as pressed books is because it is not uncommon to find unpressed books with shortened covers, in the wild.

 

To illustrate my point, here is an unpressed, raw book I took a picture of at a show last year.

 

 

 

 

 

Notice how short the cover is? It wasn't trimmed and the book definitely wasn't pressed. There are comics that come from the publisher that way and it has nothing to do with pressing, which is why CGC gives those books a pass in varying grades.

 

 

The potential of bastardized uber high grade SA books being passed around in the market does not concern you?

 

the question is not always one of concern, the question is oftentimes about what can be done? If pressing cannot be detected consistently within a reasonably small percentage of error by some of the top people in the industry who grade and evaluate comics all day long, what would you have people do? What solution is there? Should CGC employ dozens of materials science engineers to use electron microscopes to evaluate whether or not the atoms of the paper have been heated recently (or ever)? Should they get FBI agents to get signed affidavits from all previous owners stating whether or not they've pressed a given issue?

 

I understand that some people don't like pressing because they either consider it restoration, or because bad presses can ruin good books. Those are reasonable concerns to have, but what can be done beyond saying 'pressing is bad, please don't'? What is the actual, practical solution that will get people to stop pressing? Is there one? Can there ever be one?

 

We should probably also bring back prohibition, and go back to growing all of our own tomatoes.

 

I'm not saying it wouldn't be a 'better' world without the pressing, but the cat (genie) is out of the bag (lamp), and CGC has zero motivation at this point to change things...so here we are.

[Sqeggs]

the question is not always one of concern, the question is oftentimes about what can be done? If pressing cannot be detected consistently within a reasonably small percentage of error by some of the top people in the industry who grade and evaluate comics all day long, what would you have people do? What solution is there? Should CGC employ dozens of materials science engineers to use electron microscopes to evaluate whether or not the atoms of the paper have been heated recently (or ever)? Should they get FBI agents to get signed affidavits from all previous owners stating whether or not they've pressed a given issue?

 

I understand that some people don't like pressing because they either consider it restoration, or because bad presses can ruin good books. Those are reasonable concerns to have, but what can be done beyond saying 'pressing is bad, please don't'? What is the actual, practical solution that will get people to stop pressing? Is there one? Can there ever be one?

 

We should probably also bring back prohibition, and go back to growing all of our own tomatoes.

 

I'm not saying it wouldn't be a 'better' world without the pressing, but the cat (genie) is out of the bag (lamp), and CGC has zero motivation at this point to change things...so here we are.

 

Very well put.

[MustEatBrains]

Which of these book(s) are pressed?

 

 

 

 

 

[MetalPSI]

Now by pressing, do you mean restored, cleaned, hydronegnated, or sat on by someone in a bikini?

[prez]

The potential of bastardized uber high grade SA books being passed around in the market does not concern you?

 

I've loved old comics since about 1975, so please don't put words in my mouth.

 

I am simply explaining why CGC may not downgrade for certain defects as much as some would like them to.

 

I try to separate the emotional from the factual.

 

You can't discount the emotional aspect in this hobby - we're mostly collectors here.

 

I'm not a purist but at the same time I don't want these undetectable bad press jobs to put a stigma in our hobby. I just don't see how this is healthy for the HG back issue market in the long term.

 

 

[MustEatBrains]

Now by pressing, do you mean restored, cleaned, hydronegnated, or sat on by someone in a bikini?

 

any of the above..

[VintageComics]

Roy, your responses are focused on detecting pressing, but that wasn't an issue raised in the posts you quoted.

 

A defect is a defect wherever it came from, and books should have their grades reflect that, even when the defects are introduced by pressing (and, heaven forbid, in-house pressing). Only then will the onus be placed squarely on those who press to do careful, minimalistic work with the highest level of expertise. And maybe only then will a few high grade early SA Marvels be left unpressed for those collectors who prefer them that way. To me, it's a striking and problematic failure for CGC to so frequently allow all of the pressing-related defects on high grade books without grading them as defects.

 

And as for cover shrinkage? Yes, it can occur in the 'wild' without pressing, but it's a lot less common than you argue and want others to believe (try finding even a single example from the Pacific Coast, Curator, or Massachusetts pedigrees, or from my collection of 3000 bronze comics bought off the rack - or ask Cole Schave). Couple it with the cover twisting, and you've got a book that was almost certainly pressed, and sadly is likely to look worse after the job than before. And however it got there, it's ugly and when severe should be factored harshly into the grade CGC assigns, just like runny arrival dates and the many other defects that pressing sometimes causes, and no matter whether they can also occur on rare occasions even without pressing.

 

Do I dislike that defects are introduced into comics during pressing? Of course! But defects are introduced into comics over their entire lives, even through simple collecting.

 

My point is that if you can't definitevly prove it was a pressing defect you can't treat it as such, especially if the defect can be a publishing defect.

[MetalPSI]

Now by pressing, do you mean restored, cleaned, hydronegnated, or sat on by someone in a bikini?

 

any of the above..

 

Can we choose who presses by bikini? If so, I have a lot of cracking out to do

[VintageComics]

the question is not always one of concern, the question is oftentimes about what can be done? If pressing cannot be detected consistently within a reasonably small percentage of error by some of the top people in the industry who grade and evaluate comics all day long, what would you have people do? What solution is there? Should CGC employ dozens of materials science engineers to use electron microscopes to evaluate whether or not the atoms of the paper have been heated recently (or ever)? Should they get FBI agents to get signed affidavits from all previous owners stating whether or not they've pressed a given issue?

 

I understand that some people don't like pressing because they either consider it restoration, or because bad presses can ruin good books. Those are reasonable concerns to have, but what can be done beyond saying 'pressing is bad, please don't'? What is the actual, practical solution that will get people to stop pressing? Is there one? Can there ever be one?

 

We should probably also bring back prohibition, and go back to growing all of our own tomatoes.

 

I'm not saying it wouldn't be a 'better' world without the pressing, but the cat (genie) is out of the bag (lamp), and CGC has zero motivation at this point to change things...so here we are.

 

Very well put.

 

Agreed.

[joeypost]

the question is not always one of concern, the question is oftentimes about what can be done? If pressing cannot be detected consistently within a reasonably small percentage of error by some of the top people in the industry who grade and evaluate comics all day long, what would you have people do? What solution is there? Should CGC employ dozens of materials science engineers to use electron microscopes to evaluate whether or not the atoms of the paper have been heated recently (or ever)? Should they get FBI agents to get signed affidavits from all previous owners stating whether or not they've pressed a given issue?

 

I understand that some people don't like pressing because they either consider it restoration, or because bad presses can ruin good books. Those are reasonable concerns to have, but what can be done beyond saying 'pressing is bad, please don't'? What is the actual, practical solution that will get people to stop pressing? Is there one? Can there ever be one?

 

We should probably also bring back prohibition, and go back to growing all of our own tomatoes.

 

I'm not saying it wouldn't be a 'better' world without the pressing, but the cat (genie) is out of the bag (lamp), and CGC has zero motivation at this point to change things...so here we are.

 

Very well put.

 

Agreed.

 

Squared.

[namisgr]

the question is not always one of concern, the question is oftentimes about what can be done? If pressing cannot be detected consistently within a reasonably small percentage of error by some of the top people in the industry who grade and evaluate comics all day long, what would you have people do? What solution is there? Should CGC employ dozens of materials science engineers to use electron microscopes to evaluate whether or not the atoms of the paper have been heated recently (or ever)? Should they get FBI agents to get signed affidavits from all previous owners stating whether or not they've pressed a given issue?

 

I understand that some people don't like pressing because they either consider it restoration, or because bad presses can ruin good books. Those are reasonable concerns to have, but what can be done beyond saying 'pressing is bad, please don't'? What is the actual, practical solution that will get people to stop pressing? Is there one? Can there ever be one?

 

.

 

 

Your post neglects the point that the pressed and shrunken version of the JIM #93 should never have been graded higher than the unpressed version. The latter is a nicer comic, a point most everyone agreed with in the original thread on the poor pressing of the Cole Schave collection.

 

One of the engines that keeps the pressing train rolling is the grading company ignoring twisted and shrunken covers, arrival dates turned into ink stains, staple impactions made larger, relocated spines, horizontal top and bottom edge creases, vertical creases along over pressurized spines, fuzzy staples from where the cover was pulled away, and the other overt defects introduced all too often by the pressing process. And which are especially common on pressed early SA Marvels.

 

I understand from reading in the thread about the new holders that there may also be a problem with some pressed comics suffering cover damage in the form of long vertical lines of color loss near the right edge, possibly from underlying micro chamber paper. Consistent punishing of these instances of pressing-induced damage with lower grades would go a long way toward forcing pressers to maintain the highest levels of care and expertise, and dis-incentivize the loss of the high grade unpressed early SA Marvel from the comic marketplace. So would an acceptance by the grading company that gentle bending of the cover overhang is a natural phenomenon in early SA Marvels, and need not be pressed out to look like an over starched shirt at the dry cleaners in order for an early Marvel comic to receive a NM+ or higher grade.

[prez]

And the incredible shrinking covers on comics that used to be unpressed 9.2s.

 

 

 

 

https://www.cgccomics.com/news/viewarticle.aspx?IDArticle=3595

 

Pressing seems to be one of those sciences that is an art.

 

But, but...... I thought pressing is undetectable?

 

I'm waiting for someone to say "if done right, pressing is undetectable".

 

Pressing is often undetectable. Close enough?

 

Agreed, although less often than many people think.

 

Some people here have seen way more slabs than I have. I don't know. All I know is that anyone can tell if they look like the books that have recently been posted to this thread... in my experience those defects are the minority :shrug:

 

In my limited experience, the only way to tell most of the time is the absence of pressable defects in an older book.... and that's just speculation.

 

There are so many short-sighted, obfuscating comments made in these discussions that it's frustrating to offer a rebuttal for the 10,000th time only to have someone repeat the error again in an effort to make it reality this time.

 

Pressing is highly undetecable when done correctly. Sure, you might be able to pick a few out of a long lineup but you can't pick all of them. Most of them would be guesses, unlike finding color touch.

 

That is why CGC doesn't notate pressing. They can't detect it accurately, and nobody would want CGC take uneducated guesses on their books.

 

When pressing is detected, it's most often because of a bad press job, and for those things CGC notates the defects and downgrades for them based on their own internal grading standards.

 

---------------------------

 

The people who say "I thought pressing was undetectable' when someone posts a shrunken cover example like this are just being contrarian for the sake of being contrarian. Everyone who followed the thread on the topic a few years ago knows these books were pressed improperly because we have before and after pictures.

 

But the real reason these books don't get singled out solely as pressed books is because it is not uncommon to find unpressed books with shortened covers, in the wild.

 

To illustrate my point, here is an unpressed, raw book I took a picture of at a show last year.

 

 

 

 

 

Notice how short the cover is? It wasn't trimmed and the book definitely wasn't pressed. There are comics that come from the publisher that way and it has nothing to do with pressing, which is why CGC gives those books a pass in varying grades.

 

 

The potential of bastardized uber high grade SA books being passed around in the market does not concern you?

 

the question is not always one of concern, the question is oftentimes about what can be done? If pressing cannot be detected consistently within a reasonably small percentage of error by some of the top people in the industry who grade and evaluate comics all day long, what would you have people do? What solution is there? Should CGC employ dozens of materials science engineers to use electron microscopes to evaluate whether or not the atoms of the paper have been heated recently (or ever)? Should they get FBI agents to get signed affidavits from all previous owners stating whether or not they've pressed a given issue?

 

I understand that some people don't like pressing because they either consider it restoration, or because bad presses can ruin good books. Those are reasonable concerns to have, but what can be done beyond saying 'pressing is bad, please don't'? What is the actual, practical solution that will get people to stop pressing? Is there one? Can there ever be one?

 

We should probably also bring back prohibition, and go back to growing all of our own tomatoes.

 

I'm not saying it wouldn't be a 'better' world without the pressing, but the cat (genie) is out of the bag (lamp), and CGC has zero motivation at this point to change things...so here we are.

 

I understand that pressing is not going anywhere in the near future. I also understand the people are making a decent living on CPR - more power to them.

 

You ask what am I going to do about it (pressing)? Nothing really. I have no time to lobby for a regulatory body. I've been spending my money on well presenting mid-grade raw books. Fits my budget, great for reading, and no guilt if I ding it in some occasions.

 

 

[COI]

Can I just say, I love the phrase "some books benefit from a press".

 

The book doesn't benefit, and the buyer of the book doesn't benefit. Yes, thanks for making the same object cost me 6x as much as it would have two weeks ago.

[SquareChaos]

Can I just say, I love the phrase "some books benefit from a press".

 

The book doesn't benefit, and the buyer of the book doesn't benefit. Yes, thanks for making the same object cost me 6x as much as it would have two weeks ago.

 

So you're saying books don't regularly come out of a press in a higher grade and undetectably different from an unpressed book in that same grade?

 

If that were actually the case you might be on to something. I don't think it is though. As people have stated over and over again in many different ways, if you could actually detect a pressed book with a high degree of certainty, then so could grading services, and the argument might have a leg to stand on.

 

I'm sympathetic, but the reality is what it is.

 

 

[revat]

Well if my car has a minor dent, in SOME cases I can knock out the dent. Haven't changed the parts, haven't even repainted. Does it count as restored? Can you always tell there was even a dent there before?

 

Has the car benefited? I would say yes. Has the owner also benefited? I would also say yes.

 

Is this so different then pressing a comic?

[namisgr]

Well if my car has a minor dent, in SOME cases I can knock out the dent. Haven't changed the parts, haven't even repainted. Does it count as restored? Can you always tell there was even a dent there before?

 

Has the car benefited? I would say yes. Has the owner also benefited? I would also say yes.

 

Is this so different then pressing a comic?

 

Yes, unless you've pressed your car.

[MetalPSI]

Well if my car has a minor dent, in SOME cases I can knock out the dent. Haven't changed the parts, haven't even repainted. Does it count as restored? Can you always tell there was even a dent there before?

 

Has the car benefited? I would say yes. Has the owner also benefited? I would also say yes.

 

Is this so different then pressing a comic?

 

Yes, unless you've pressed your car.

 

Nice.

 

[SquareChaos]

Some people just hold ideological beliefs on this. There is no compromise.